Joy & Austin 21: Still Talking About Baby Gideon

[Snarkasarus Rex]

8 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

I wish there was no C in that title. It should be called unlicensed lay midwife- using the C confuses that role with that of Certified Nurse Midwives.

I do too.  There's an expectation of competence from someone who says they are 'certified' something.  Some CPMs are competent and well-trained, while there are others like Jill and her 'midwife' friends.  It's a crapshoot and it shouldn't be.  

The formerly licensed CPM (Venessa Giron) Jill was working under nearly killed a child...a birth Jill was present for.  Jill and Jana's apprentice licenses were voided when Venessa lost her license, yet Jill then takes a test and is suddenly a CPM.  

[ihaveanexamintwodays]

5 hours ago, viii said:

Question for you guys - how do you spell the Catherine/Katherine's? I've seen it so many different ways, and there seems to be no universal agreement. 

I tend to go Catherine of Aragon, Katherine Howard, and Katherine Parr, but I could be completely off base. 

late to the party - all these recent thread drifts (here and other threads) have been on some of my favorite topics, and i'm loving reading it! Every year or two I end up in the wormhole of Tudors lol. I've always spelled #1 Catherine (Catalina de Aragón), #5 Kathryn and #6 Katherine......just to keep all 3 different in my head haha. However, I think documents have been found with each of their signatures spelling with a "K" bc evidently that was most common in English then ("Katherine the quene" or "Katherina Regina" attributed to #1, "Kateryn the quene" attributed to #6, etc). I also believe #4 Anne of Cleves wrote here name "Anna", whereas #2 was educated in France and did actually use "Anne".

[TatiFish9]

Okay thanks to all offering expertise.

In establishing if Jill was ever a lau midwife to begin with,  I am going to go with,no, if she did not take her AR exams. She does not say she did. Also there is no record of her being listed as licensed. So I am assuming, no? She was close to it but not cigar???

For those like myself who are still confused, I have included the sections from AR State Board of Health online right now. Seems to be most recent. Probably posted here before.

There is definition and requirements.

Umm...huh? lol I guess this would explain why she practice only with family and friends. And if they are low key anti govt she may not feel she needs to take state exams. 

As far as Derick ranting...smh may be he and his mother (who came up with the idea of proof) don't know there is a second part??? Everything with this family is so wacky. Geez. Either you are or you are or you aren't. Why the tricky language always. Smh.

 

 

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[luv2laugh]

How do we know it was only Jill at Joy's birth!?

[TatiFish9]

@luv2laugh

I think based on something Ellie said on the fan blog. I haven't seen it to be sure. I saw something about her saying Jill was the one who made the call for Joy to go to the hospital, here.

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On the CPM note, I guess for all that is not so good with Vanessa at least she saw something in Jill and tried to push her along to receive some education. However, Jill says she was content with assisting only. Still doesn't explain why she did all the work to pass her NARMs but I think not getting the license tells the whole story. Maybe Jill never truly wanted to be a practicing midwife in the first place or maybe she didn't have the time to finish before becoming wife and mom. Who knows.

[bucherwurm]

I have read a ton of others birth stories and thoughts about midwives and home birth over the last while, since the Duggar girls have been birthing. I don't think I have said anything though, so since I am mostly caught up, which rarely happens, I will tell my story now.

I have two kids. I have had midwives for both. Being in Ontario, these ladies have had 4 years of university training, along with clinical practice with other trained midwives. They become your primary care person. They can order all of the ultrasounds you may need, including dating, the anatomy ultrasound and further ultrasounds for other testing or concerns. They order blood work (or do it themselves depending on the clinic), do the gestational diabetes testing, and explain anything you want to know and help you to make informed decisions. Where I am, there are many old order Amish and Mennonites who choose generally to not have much or any testing, but that is their choice and their right. 

For my first birth, I had GBS. My waters broke and my midwife drove to my house a couple times to administer the antibiotics. Labour didn't start on it's own so I needed to go to the hospital to be induced. I was planning on delivering at the hospital anyway, but not like that. Baby ended up being born not breathing, so her cord was cut right away by the OB who caught her and she was handed to my midwife who got her breathing started. I was fine. I had care from my midwife for 6 weeks after birth, including home visits for the first few days after birth, and a couple weeks after. She was born at 8lbs 11oz.

Basically the whole time I was pregnant with my second, I was going back and forth on what kind of birth I wanted. I didn't know what a "natural" labour was like. I was pretty certain I didn't want to be at home, because of the dogs and such. I registered at the hospital and did all that stuff before hand. I was scared, though, because it seemed like my first time again, and I knew how bad it could get, since I was on pitocin the first time. I started thinking towards the end that I might just have a home water birth, since I love the bath tub. I started labour at home and was on the phone with the midwife a couple of times. I was doing fine by myself, and had no idea how progressed I was. By the time she got there I was a 6, and still hadn't fully decided on whether or not we were going to the hospital. About half an hour later I was in transition, and in the tub. I had a very wonderful home water birth with my midwife in attendance. This baby was 8lbs 13ozs and this birth happened in November.

I felt like I was very aware of the risks going into it, and I still know the risks. I am thankful that we have such well trained midwives here. And I wanted to add, that the midwives of Ontario have radio ads out now advertising what midwives do, and I think it's pretty cool.

[SassyPants]

Does Jill even have a GED? Did she pass the examine? I can't remember-

[Ivycoveredtower]

19 minutes ago, luv2laugh said:

How do we know it was only Jill at Joy's birth!?

We don't know for 100% but jill and no other midwife was shown at the birth and it was said that the midwife sent her to the hospital because the baby was breech. and the Ellie blog said Jill is the one that examined her and sent her to the hospital. so it's very likely she only had Jill there.  and TLC didn't want to come out and say that.  but Ellie outed them opps

[Chickenbutt]

As of Nov 2, 2017, Jill is not listed as a Lay Midwife nor a Lay Midwife apprentice in Arkansas. 

http://www.healthy.arkansas.gov/images/uploads/pdf/LLM_Listing_updated_11.7.17.pdf

http://www.healthy.arkansas.gov/images/uploads/pdf/LMA_Listing_updated_11.2.17.pdf

I thought there was some chatter about her being licensed in Texas? But after a pretty confusing search in Texas, I don't find her licensed there either. 

[Snarkasarus Rex]

12 minutes ago, luv2laugh said:

How do we know it was only Jill at Joy's birth!?

We don't know for sure.  The family is being coy about it.

Joy's midwife was incompetent, whoever it was.  

[Sister Mozz]

One thing that rings odd about Joy's birth story was that Gideon arrived by emergency c-section. In a normal breech presentation or malpresentation (any part besides the head positioned at the cervix) there is no need for it to be an emergency. It wouldn't be a planned c-section, but it would not have to happen immediately unless something else was going on with the baby. 

 

Possibly laboring too long at home would fall under "something else going on with the baby." Or at least strongly contributing to the situation.

[TatiFish9]

5 minutes ago, Chickenbutt said:

As of Nov 2, 2017, Jill is not listed as a Lay Midwife nor a Lay Midwife apprentice in Arkansas. 

http://www.healthy.arkansas.gov/images/uploads/pdf/LLM_Listing_updated_11.7.17.pdf

http://www.healthy.arkansas.gov/images/uploads/pdf/LMA_Listing_updated_11.2.17.pdf

I thought there was some chatter about her being licensed in Texas? But after a pretty confusing search in Texas, I don't find her licensed there either. 

Nope. Just a statement Jill made that she took midwifery classes from a Texas institution/center.

 

[marmalade]

1 hour ago, TuringMachine said:

I was under the impression that Jill would need to redo her apprenticeship since the midwife she did it under lost her license.

Jill was never licensed as a lay midwife in the state of Arkansas. Here is the list of current lay midwives (CPMs who have also taken the state exam) in the state. 

https://www.healthy.arkansas.gov/images/uploads/pdf/LLM_Listing_updated_11.7.17.pdf

ah, beaten to it with the list, but I've kept an eye on this since Derelict said Jill passed the CPM, and she has never been on it. They went back to Danger America, and she never pursued it further. She took the CPM exam when they were in the states for Amy's wedding. 

[Rachel333]

One thing that scares me about home births (and disclaimer: I'm not saying no one should ever be able to have a home birth) is that no matter how qualified the person attending, even if they're an OB-GYN, not being at a hospital means that if things go wrong there might not be time to save the mother and/or baby. In the two horrible home birth outcomes from people my family knew, it was the time it took to get to the hospital that made the difference, and if they had been in the hospital already those tragedies could have been averted.

That's why I feel like if you really want a minimal intervention birth the best option would be to find one of those hospitals that have birth centers attached where you can have a home birth experience but if things go wrong you're already at the hospital.

[AprilQuilt]

24 minutes ago, Sister Mozz said:

One thing that rings odd about Joy's birth story was that Gideon arrived by emergency c-section. In a normal breech presentation or malpresentation (any part besides the head positioned at the cervix) there is no need for it to be an emergency. It wouldn't be a planned c-section, but it would not have to happen immediately unless something else was going on with the baby. 

(my bold)

As I understand it, at least in the UK, 'emergency' usually simply means unscheduled. It doesn't necessarily imply that something went badly wrong. I think it was probably a considered decision given that he didn't look likely to come out any other way, rather than because he was in serious distress.

[TuringMachine]

1 minute ago, AprilQuilt said:

(my bold)

As I understand it, at least in the UK, 'emergency' usually simply means unscheduled. It doesn't necessarily imply that something went badly wrong. I think it was probably a considered decision given that he didn't look likely to come out any other way, rather than because he was in serious distress.

I think it's the same in the US. I believe my birth was referred to as an "emergency" c-section even though there was nothing urgently wrong. It just wasn't planned. I think "crash" c-section is what it's called when it needs to be done right now.

[Sister Mozz]

5 minutes ago, AprilQuilt said:

(my bold)

As I understand it, at least in the UK, 'emergency' usually simply means unscheduled. It doesn't necessarily imply that something went badly wrong. I think it was probably a considered decision given that he didn't look likely to come out any other way, rather than because he was in serious distress.

My understanding is that when a doctor declares an 'emergency' c-section necessary, it must be performed within 30 minutes. If a c-section is decided upon without a life-threatening reason, they may wait 2-3 hours before taking the baby. This has happened both to friends and family members - unscheduled but non-emergency c-sections.

 

https://www.bundoo.com/articles/what-happens-during-an-emergency-c-section/

See also: http://archive.boston.com/lifestyle/health/pregnancy/2013/06/5_truths_about_unplanned_c-sections.html

[nvmbr02]

Yes, my sister had what was classified as an emergency c-section, but it actually happened about 2 hours after it was decided she would need a c-section. They had a bunch of forms to sign and they waited for an opening in the OR. This may just be the way the doctor and/or my sister explained it but it really wasn't a true emergency. 

Her other c-section was immediate, like it was done under general anesthesia since there was no time for a spinal. I think from the time they realized there was a problem and my nephew being born is something like 5 or 6 mins. It was crazy fast. My dad called to say she was going to have a c-section and the baby was born and headed to the NICU while we were still on the phone.

[Rachel333]

I think they're just separated into "emergency" and "elective." I found this paper proposing a new system of classification, saying that, "It is acknowledged that the traditional classification of caesarean section into ‘elective’ and ‘emergency’ is of limited value for data collection and audit of obstetric and anaesthetic outcomes."

[SassyPants]

I've never heard emergency used for anything other than an emergency c-section. The opposite of elective is not emergent. In any hospital where I have worked (I was NICU, so familiar with the OB terms) what Joy had would have been referred to as a C-section for breech, at term. Unless either the mother or baby were at risk, "emergency" would not be used.

 

[metheglyn]

So, to clarify some of the issues we're discussing I decided to take a bunch of screencaps from the episode (specifically Joy & Austin's Baby Part 2: https://www.tlc.com/tv-shows/counting-on/full-episodes/joy-austins-baby-part-2)

First, here's a pic of the people who were specifically seen as attending Joy at home. From left to right that's Jill, Austin's sister, Johanna, Austin's mom, and Austin.We also know that Jana and Michelle were there, but they're not seen in this image.

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Per the footage we can certainly infer that Jill was the one supposedly monitoring Joy, since she's on record as saying "Baby's heart rate is good, and your vitals are good...don't be discouraged. It's actually really encouraging." This statement is captioned on the screen.

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This is followed by two text cards on screen at different intervals indicating that "After 20 hours in labor, the midwife determines the baby is breech." Then shortly after, text says "Once Joy arrives at the hospital it is determined that she needs an emergency C-Section." Per the official on-screen timeline, Jim Bob is notified that Joy's currently being transferred some time after 2:15, and Gideon is born at 3:39. So assuming TLC isn't fudging the timeline too badly, there's not much time between those points, which fits the definition of an "emergency c-section" listed above.

 

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Interestingly, since I could swear Ellie said Jill made the call, it appears she may have changed the blog post per the comments on the post about Jill being the midwife. (http://www.duggarfamilyblog.com/2018/03/joys-c-section-delivery.html) The post now describes what's actually seen on the screen.

(Did anyone screencap the post when it first went up? I can't find a version of what I'm sure it originally said, so if anyone did we could see if there was indeed a change.)

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[scoutsadie]

6 hours ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

Ben works for JIm Bob I think probably doing what the other boys do. Joe supposedly works at the car lot and is in charge of new purchases. all the boys from I think Jason up work for Jim bob in some way doing yard work and repairs on his proprieties or working at the car lot or real estate business. 

As a matter of fact, Ellie just blogged about this: http://www.duggarfamilyblog.com/2018/03/working-with-duggar-brothers.html?m=1 

(Of course when she says, "When the kids are young, the goal is to help them gain as many skills and types of experience as possible," she means the kids with penises.)

[meowfundiecatz]

37 minutes ago, scoutsadie said:

As a matter of fact, Ellie just blogged about this: http://www.duggarfamilyblog.com/2018/03/working-with-duggar-brothers.html?m=1 

(Of course when she says, "When the kids are young, the goal is to help them gain as many skills and types of experience as possible," she means the kids with penises.)

I'm not sold on this being new footage. I actually think this is old footage because Elijah came on the scene a few years ago per his Instagram (although he is on an Insta break, so no new pictures for a while). I'm not sure if he has been discussed elsewhere. 

 

[Taylurker]

So not only did Jill apprentice under a midwife who had her license taken away, but she has no license to practice midwifery in AR, and even if she WAS licensed and maybe even an OB, she is practicing medicine on her own family as the sole provider? The latter especially which is a HUGE no-no.

Jill may be NARM-certified, but she needs more than that to practice as a CPM in AR.

I really wonder what JB&M think of their daughters' prenatal care and birth choices so far. Michelle had 2 homebirths (Jinger + Joseph) but all the rest were hospital births. She had plenty of VBACs but most of those were hospital-supervised, and knew the risks with having the # of the children in the double digits, and sought adequate prenatal care.

Hey producers (okay, can't remember if Scott and Sean still works on the show and who the main guy is), I think people would be REALLY interested in seeing JB&M's thoughts on their kids' birth choices. Nudge nudge, wink wink.

 

[candygirl200413]

I'm assuming she had jill as her midwife (assuming we are all accurate) because she is basically her mom but ditto to everyone else who said how dumb it is to have jill in such a role.