Josiah Duggar: Part 5

[Plexus31Wife]

4 hours ago, Chewing Gum said:

How cool strangers do that. I have yet to visit the biggest tourist places myself (Anne Frank house for example) though  . I really love my country. (well besides the Sinterklaas blackface thing, which would drive my family apart of I ever mentioned my stance on it (against)). Proud Dutchie over here for basically everything else. Right now, especially loving the olympics with the Dutch ice speed skaters, they rocked!

Ugh, the blackface thing is done here, too. Not a fan!! I think I get away with being staunchly opposed to it, though -  because I'm a foreigner, and simply don't understand that culture is different here in Germany. There apparently IS no racism here, you see, unlike in the English speaking countries where I grew up... 

[SapphireSlytherin]

2 hours ago, ScorpiousMalfoy said:

Ski jumping always seems to me like such a niche sport. It is nice to know somebody besides us Poles, Germans, Norwegians and maaaybe Austrians watches it  there surely was a lot of celebrating after our ski jumper's gold on Saturday - it's our only medal in PyeongChang for now!

Eddie the Eagle from England made the whole WORLD fans of ski-jumping...

[SapphireSlytherin]

@JillyO - Biathlon is on right now!!!

[Million Children For Jesus]

@JillyO I’m also in California, but my heart is in Germany...

[L1o2u3]

Hey there fellow Germans  

@Plexus31Wife You're 5 months too late  I used to live in Düsseldorf, but then moved last fall. However, Cologne/Bonn would still be possible for me 

[SweetJuly]

11 hours ago, Plexus31Wife said:

Ugh, the blackface thing is done here, too. Not a fan!! I think I get away with being staunchly opposed to it, though -  because I'm a foreigner, and simply don't understand that culture is different here in Germany. There apparently IS no racism here, you see, unlike in the English speaking countries where I grew up... 

Please bear with me as a I tread in dangerous waters...

I believe in the US (and in much of the English-speaking world) blackface is traditionally associated with the entire baggage of slavery, imperialism, lynchings, Jim Crow laws, etc. and was often used to portray black people as sub-human.

In Germany, blackface does not come with all this traditional baggage, probably mainly because Germany as a whole had little contact with black people until after WWII. Blackface used to be approached mainly without judgment, it was just a way to make your face look black if it was required for a character (for instance if you are portraying one of the Three Kings - Melchior?). It's not (traditionally) meant to be racist or a vehicle to mock or demean black people.

Is there racism in Germany? - Of course.

Does blackface make me uncomfortable? - Certainly.

Is blackface insensitive and no longer fit for a modern society, no matter the intention? - Absolutely.

 

[Jinder Roles]

1 hour ago, SweetJuly said:

Please bear with me as a I tread in dangerous waters...

I believe in the US (and in much of the English-speaking world) blackface is traditionally associated with the entire baggage of slavery, imperialism, lynchings, Jim Crow laws, etc. and was often used to portray black people as sub-human.

In Germany, blackface does not come with all this traditional baggage, probably mainly because Germany as a whole had little contact with black people until after WWII.

 

 

 

 

Untrue. Germany (unified) colonized Cameroon, Ghana, Togo, Namibia and others in the 19th century Scramble for Africa. The Prussian empire tried its hand (and got shut out by other imperial powers) at the trans-Atlantic slave trade. Several German trading companies and aristocrats were involved in the slave trade from the 1600s. They had posts and forts on the African continent and traded to the Caribbean and the Americas. 

I call absolute bullshit on the idea that a Sinterklaus blackface tradition is not based (at least in some part) on racism in Germany. Especially, since it is in neibouring nations with similar cultural histories and open lines of communication and exchange. The thing about racism, is that the disenfranchised group doesn’t have to be physically present for stereotypes to be perpetuated 

Not directed at you but I find that many Europeans have serious historical amnesia. Especially when talking about racism and America. Britain, France, Spain, Germany, Italy, Portugal, Belgium, Holland and Denmark all played a role in the systematic oppression of black people. 

[SweetJuly]

18 minutes ago, Jinder Roles said:

Untrue. Germany (unified) colonized Cameroon, Ghana, Togo, Namibia and others in the 19th century Scramble for Africa. The Prussian empire tried its hand (and got shut out by other imperial powers) at the trans-Atlantic slave trade. Several German trading companies and aristocrats were involved in the slave trade from the 1600s. They had posts and forts on the African continent and traded to the Caribbean and the Americas. 

I call absolute bullshit on the idea that a Sinterklaus blackface tradition is not based (at least in some part) on racism in Germany. Especially, since it is in neibouring nations with similar cultural histories and open lines of communication and exchange. The thing about racism, is that the disenfranchised group doesn’t have to be physically present for stereotypes to be perpetuated 

Not directed at you but I find that many Europeans have serious historical amnesia. Especially when talking about racism and America. Britain, France, Spain, Germany, Italy, Portugal, Belgium, Holland and Denmark all played a role in the systematic oppression of black people. 

I spent some of my childhood growing up in Germany and as I am Jewish and stuck out like a sore thumb in the small town where we lived, I would consider myself rather sensitive to racism.

The people I saw wearing blackface during traditional events such as the "Sternsingen" (children dressed up as Three Kings singing songs and collecting money for charity on 6th January) were not motivated by racism. As for St Nicholas in the part of Germany where I grew up, he was accompanied by some sort of devil/demon that was not seen by any of the involved children as a black person. My point is that nobody I saw wearing blackface growing up was doing so out of racist motivations.

What I was trying to do in my previous post was merely trying to find an explanation as to why, as a whole, blackface is not seen by much of the general German population as inherently racist. Irrespective of how insensitive and inappropriate it may be.

Of course Germany was involved in colonialism, and I am well aware of the atrocities committed by European colonial powers in Africa and elsewhere. My point is that Germany AS A WHOLE, meaning the majority of German citizens, had very little exposure to actual black people until after the Second World War.

There was no mass transport of Africans to Germany, there was no widespread slavery of black people practised in Germany in the 18th and 19th century, there were no Germans growing up in Germany thinking that "owning" a black person was a normal everyday occurrence, there are no descendants of black people who were brought to Germany as slaves living in Germany nowadays.

The situation in the US is a very different one than in many European countries.

Just as the situation in Germany when it comes to Jews is a very different one than in the US.

 

[AprilQuilt]

2 minutes ago, SweetJuly said:

The people I saw wearing blackface during traditional events such as the "Sternsingen" (children dressed up as Three Kings singing songs and collecting money for charity on 6th January) were not motivated by racism. As for St Nicholas in the part of Germany where I grew up, he was accompanied by some sort of devil/demon that was not seen by any of the involved children as a black person. My point is that nobody I saw wearing blackface growing up was doing so out of racist motivations.

Sure, and when I was a child in the 90s, I honestly didn't realise that golliwog dolls were meant to be black people. That penny didn't drop until I actually reflected on it in my teens - I thought they were just weird little fantasy creatures. Fortunately they aren't nearly so much of a thing in the UK any more, and I doubt many parents of my generation would even think of getting their kid a golliwog. A marmalade company famously had a golliwog as its mascot until the early 00s - you could collect tokens to send off for enamel badges - but even they have quietly phased it out.

Just because things are a beloved part of traditional culture doesn't make them benign and acceptable. The character you're referring to is the same as the Dutch Zwarte Piet, right? If you aren't having a discussion about it in Germany, the Dutch certainly are, and are just about beginning to accept that it is racist.

[PainfullyAware]

I have no knowledge of black face in Gemany or its historic roots. But I just want to throw in the concept of Orientalism, or how we culturally represent people and places from non-Western backgrounds. If it entails the exotic-isation of those people, the Othering of them in tropes like 'noble savage', 'mysterious sensual Eastern woman', 'hyper sexual person - threat to white women', then we perpetuate a Eurocentric  worldview and negative stereotypes about people of colour. Looking at the history of representing Orientalism as art you realize contact with people of colour was not necessary to Other them.

[Jinder Roles]

21 minutes ago, SweetJuly said:

I spent some of my childhood growing up in Germany and as I am Jewish and stuck out like a sore thumb in the small town where we lived, I would consider myself rather sensitive to racism.

The people I saw wearing blackface during traditional events such as the "Sternsingen" (children dressed up as Three Kings singing songs and collecting money for charity on 6th January) were not motivated by racism. As for St Nicholas in the part of Germany where I grew up, he was accompanied by some sort of devil/demon that was not seen by any of the involved children as a black person. My point is that nobody I saw wearing blackface growing up was doing so out of racist motivations.

What I was trying to do in my previous post was merely trying to find an explanation as to why, as a whole, blackface is not seen by much of the general German population as inherently racist. Irrespective of how insensitive and inappropriate it may be.

Of course Germany was involved in colonialism, and I am well aware of the atrocities committed by European colonial powers in Africa and elsewhere. My point is that Germany AS A WHOLE, meaning the majority of German citizens, had very little exposure to actual black people until after the Second World War.

There was no mass transport of Africans to Germany, there was no widespread slavery of black people practised in Germany in the 18th and 19th century, there were no Germans growing up in Germany thinking that "owning" a black person was a normal everyday occurrence, there are no descendants of black people who were brought to Germany as slaves living in Germany nowadays.

The situation in the US is a very different one than in many European countries.

Just as the situation in Germany when it comes to Jews is a very different one than in the US.

 

And what I said is that racism can manifest itself without the physical presence of black people. Perceived as ‘black’ or not, the helpers of St Nicholas (also know as Zwarte Piet aka “Black Peter” ) come from folklore of the Low Countries They are based on the depiction of Moors from Spain (see how racism works?) 

You keep pushing that Germans had no stereotypes of dark-skinned people until after WWII. Their colonial past, as well as the presence of a pitch black character with curly hair and big red lips acting as  servant in their parades says otherwise. 

Also, there were very few black people in Britain or Belgium proper until the late 19th century but they were still racist as fuck. 

[SweetJuly]

13 minutes ago, AprilQuilt said:

Just because things are a beloved part of traditional culture doesn't make them benign and acceptable. The character you're referring to is the same as the Dutch Zwarte Piet, right? If you aren't having a discussion about it in Germany, the Dutch certainly are, and are just about beginning to accept that it is racist.

Exactly, I am not saying it's benign and acceptable. If you read my previous posts, you will see that I am not arguing that blackface in Germany is innocent and fun and should be continued to be practised without thinking. I called it unacceptable for a modern society.

I am just trying to explain that there seems to be a difference in sensitivity to certain matters such as blackface in many European countries compared to the US. I do believe that there is a different mindset, a difference in the basic approach to the issue, which has something to do with the history of slavery.

And the character is not the same as the Zwarte Piet. In Southern Germany, that companion of St Nicholas is generally portrayed as a scary demon, often with a mask that looks scarcely human (google "Krampus"). It's very different from the Zwarte Piet, and I am not familiar enough with the Dutch character and situation to comment on this.

 

 

[SweetJuly]

6 minutes ago, Jinder Roles said:

You keep pushing that Germans had no stereotypes of dark-skinned people until after WWII. Their colonial past, as well as the presence of a pitch black character with curly hair and big red lips acting as  servant in their parades says otherwise. 

I do fully agree with you.

And I am not trying to pretend that Germans had no stereotypes or prejudices towards dark-skinned people. Heck, Germans had racist stereotypes and prejudices towards everyone in the 19th century.

It's simply true that blackface in Germany was and often still is practised without any racist motivation. People are just trying to dress up as a black person/character, and don't understand what is wrong with it. They don't pretend not to understand, they are honestly baffled and confused.

I am merely trying to offer an explanation as to why this is the case. Not more, not less.

[ven]

6 minutes ago, SweetJuly said:

 

It's simply true that blackface in Germany was and often still is practised without any racist motivation. People are just trying to dress up as a black person/character, and don't understand what is wrong with it. They don't pretend not to understand, they are honestly baffled and confused.

 

This is the same with us belgian people , sinterklaas is such an old tradition that it is likely not going to go away soon.

[AprilQuilt]

25 minutes ago, SweetJuly said:

I am just trying to explain that there seems to be a difference in sensitivity to certain matters such as blackface in many European countries compared to the US. I do believe that there is a different mindset, a difference in the basic approach to the issue, which has something to do with the history of slavery.

But it comes across as if you're using this as a defence. And it isn't one. I can accept that Germany had a different cultural relationship with the slave trade than the UK or America, because they are so geographically different, but this doesn't mean it had *no* cultural relationship with black people or slavery. It was part of a European community then, where ideas of blackness and orientalism were common in art and literature. It's now part of a global community, and has every opportunity - and responsiblity - to reflect on whether its past behaviour is currently acceptable.

I don't believe that ignorance or well-meaning is a fair defence when we are in a position to educated ourselves and do better. It's like the defence individuals use against charges of racism: 'but no offence was meant!/I'm sorry that you are offended'. If someone's telling you it's offensive to them, stop doing it. It doesn't matter how benign you judge the intention to be.

('offensiveness' is the wrong word, and I'm sorry for that - I'm using it as a shorthand. The status quo believes that 'offense' is the worst outcome for minorities when they are treated/spoken about in particular ways, not realising/accepting that in fact the worst outcome is genuine harm and possible death.)

[SweetJuly]

@AprilQuilt I'd appreciate it if you didn't put words in my mouth, and didn't argue against points I didn't make.

I was merely trying to find an explanation for a phenomenon - that people in many European countries feel differently about blackface than people in the US, and use(d) blackface with different intentions.

[AprilQuilt]

1 hour ago, SweetJuly said:

@AprilQuilt I'd appreciate it if you didn't put words in my mouth, and didn't argue against points I didn't make.

I was merely trying to find an explanation for a phenomenon - that people in many European countries feel differently about blackface than people in the US, and use(d) blackface with different intentions.

I'm sorry you feel that's what I'm doing. Your argument was that although blackface in Germany is not benign or acceptable, it is in some way more defensible. I simply don't think 'different intentions' lessen damage, particularly in our modern society where there definitely *are* German POC.

This is absolutely not personal. I don't know you, I'm sure you are very nice. I just can't get on board with your argument.

[Marly]

22 minutes ago, AprilQuilt said:

Your argument was that although blackface in Germany is not benign or acceptable, it is in some way more defensible. 

I don't think she's saying it's defensible. She's merely trying to explain why a majority of (western) Europeans don't seem to perceive zwarte piet as racism. (and she's also saying she doesn't agree with that)
I personally think zwarte piet is racism, because it's blackface and because of the colonial and slavery related implications attached to it, and as such it is hurting people. But a large part of the Dutch population disagrees with this. They argue that zwarte piet is very kind and everyone loves zwarte piet, so why would black people feel offended by that? Additionally, the Dutch role in slavery isn't taught that extensively in schools (it is being taught more and more nowadays, but amongst the generations that believe zwarte piet isn't racism, it was barely touched upon), so most proponents of zwarte piet actually (though falsely) believe that zwarte piet has no ties to slavery at all. They believe that the perception that zwarte piet is racist is an American perception, and that racism such as it exists in the States doesn't exist in Europe.
I very much disagree with this kind of reasoning, and I think the role of the Dutch in the slave trade should be emphasized much, much more in schools. It should also be emphasized that racism is not just "an American issue". Racism is very pervasive in European countries. And just because someone doesn't mean something to be racist, doesn't mean that it isn't.
 

[AprilQuilt]

@Marly I totally agree with that. As @PainfullyAware points out, Orientalism - the Western imagining of the non-western Other - doesn't really help anyone. It still makes the non-Westerner the object to the Westerner's subjective gaze. It's still white dominant culture deciding how POC are defined; however positive the associations, they are still confining and imposed by someone else. That old chestnut that black people are great dancers/well endowed/natural athletes, which is STILL presented as if it were a compliment... like, no!

For clarity, I'm not saying any of the above because I think you don't know it. I think we are all broadly on the same page. We all agree, I think, that Zwarte Piet and similar traditions are racist? I also don't think it's unreasonable to state that European countries have historically different relationships with slavery and POC; it's true. My only frustration was that the OP continued to, by my reading, use that to minimise the very real racism, even when other posters besides me argued with the original point.

My real issue is with the people of (eg) Germany and Holland who continue to use the defences that you cite very cogently in your above post, essentially refusing to accept or address their own cultural racism, and see the protection of other cultures as an assault on their own. It's the same issue I have with the people in the UK who continue to argue that the Golliwog is a beloved traditional toy that portrays black people affectionately, and that to 'ban' it is some kind of nanny-state politically-correct madness that will dismantle our national pride. That stuff is what I find unstomachable, because it's so easy to portray it as 'benign' or a protection of cosy traditionalism. It's insidious, and it's gaining traction among far-right groups in many European countries including my own.

[SweetJuly]

1 hour ago, AprilQuilt said:

I'm sorry you feel that's what I'm doing. Your argument was that although blackface in Germany is not benign or acceptable, it is in some way more defensible. I simply don't think 'different intentions' lessen damage, particularly in our modern society where there definitely *are* German POC.

Please show me where I said that it was "some way more defensible" or where I was arguing that point.

I know that the arguments you mention are sometimes used by other people. They weren't by me.

[AprilQuilt]

5 hours ago, SweetJuly said:

I believe in the US (and in much of the English-speaking world) blackface is traditionally associated with the entire baggage of slavery, imperialism, lynchings, Jim Crow laws, etc. and was often used to portray black people as sub-human.

In Germany, blackface does not come with all this traditional baggage, probably mainly because Germany as a whole had little contact with black people until after WWII. Blackface used to be approached mainly without judgment

 

3 hours ago, SweetJuly said:

It's simply true that blackface in Germany was and often still is practised without any racist motivation

Since you asked... I do read your posts here as rationalising blackface in Germany; you say it doesn't have racist motivation, and that because Germany doesn't have that Jim Crow history, blackface does not have the same 'traditional baggage'. You are saying it's not as bad; it doesn't have the same ugly roots.

I'm not the only poster here to have said, 'yeah but it's still racism'. I see that you feel personally attacked and I don't know how else to assure you that this is not my intention. When I'm quoting you, I'll mention you; I am really not trying to put words into your mouth.

OK? OK. This is as far as I'll be drawn on this subject.

[VelociRapture]

I’m not directing this at anyone specifically. This is just how I personally feel about Black Pete and Blackface in general:

Much like sexual harassment, intent does not matter as much as the impact. You could be a perfectly lovely human being who genuinely cares about and accepts everyone for their differences and you could still end up hurting someone or stereotyping an entire group of people. If you have been informed that you hurt someone or you hurt a group of people and you continue doing what caused that pain then you’re wrong. 

So when it comes to Black Pete, I personally don’t feel there any valid excuse or defense anymore. The people who like Black Pete have been made aware that he’s an offensive figure by people around the world, but most importantly by the black people in their cultures. If they continue to celebrate with Black Pete then that says plain and simple that they do not care they are causing pain and that’s just sad.

[JillyO]

Man, I don't know. I feel like there must be room to explain where racist cultural phenomena may come from and why they are still widely accepted, without it being perceived as acceptance of or excuses for said racist practices. I do believe that's what @SweetJuly was trying to do here, even though her wording was at times not the clearest. At the same time, this is of course an incredibly delicate subject where, understandably, emotions tend to run high. For this reason, it's all the more important to choose our words wisely and not to make (inadvertent) excuses for racist practices as we try to understand why they exist.

All of that said, it's way past time for all of us to get over our culturally ingrained racism. I am sick and tired of how many people think that just because we've "always done it this way" makes it acceptable. I didn't actually know that there was a blackface tradition similar to Sinterklaas in parts of Germany before I read this thread; I'd never seen or heard of it. But now that I know this exists: Fuck that shit. There is not place for practices like this in the 21st century. I don't give a rat's ass that your great-great-great-grandpa used to do it in 1815, and that all the kids love it. It's wrong. Stop it.

[Four is Enough]

I will be the first to say I don't know jack about german colonialism or blackface, but I will posit this question.

How far back does the Sinterklass legend go? How far back is the story of the demon who accompanies Sinterklass?

Is the legend older than the history?

I think there are occasionally demon stories wherein the demon has a black face, simply because it came from Hell. 

I could be wrong, but in that ONE instance, I would not say the blackface was racist, but devilislh.

[L1o2u3]

I think the German Knecht Ruprecht has a black face sometimes. But he is from hell, like @Four is Enough said. He is sometimes also portrayed as a demon/devilish creature. I think it comes from the Krampus and existed before Christianity (like many Christian traditions  ) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krampus So that was definitely before colonialism and the recent history of slavery (though I think Greek and Roman people might have had some black slaves also). 

I always though the black color was meant to be dirt or ashes (from the fire in hell?). 

So I guess the tradition of coloring the face black might have been there before the Dutch started to dress up like a black slave in medieval times  still I think that the costume as it is now is not a good choice. It probably happened because there was already an association of black skin = devil before and they just thought "oh these black people look like demons" and therefore had no problems with replacing the demon with a black servant...