Josiah Duggar: Part 5

[NachosFlandersStyle]

10 hours ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

I don't know what part of the US South you're referring to, but I have never heard anyone ask "What are you?" And the only time I've ever heard anyone ask where someone is from, is when they've just moved to town.

I have mixed-race/ethnically ambiguous friends who hear this constantly, and not just in the South. It is very rude, but it's also very common.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

I think curiosity about people's background is very normal and human. I think it's also useful, curiosity is the primary driving force for improving our knowledge. As is often the case, the problem is not the thing itself but the way, the mean, imho.

I asked to an FJer about her ethnic background. She had written a post referring at herself as a PoC, but the way she described her experience didn't match the most probable explanation (her country has a big rate of immigrants from another specific country but from details of her post it wasn't her case). Sensing an interesting story behind it, curiosity was eating at me. I liked this poster very much and I had previously had interesting conversations with her. So I decided to go all in and pmed her referring at her post and asking what she had meant. I apologised for my being insanely curious and asked her to please don't feel obliged to answer if she felt I was overstepping her boundaries.

She was very kind in her reply and it was the starting point of many looong (we both lack the gift of synthesis) conversations about our respective cultures, life experiences and backgrounds and of an online friendship that I cherish.

Had I had a different previous relationship with that FJer, I probably wouldn't have dared to ask. And if I got my brain transplanted and changed with Trump's and instead of using a minimum of decency I had asked her "What are you?" (or "What race are you?"), I could rightly have expected a "I'm a person not a thing and you should mind your own fucking business" answer. Not assuming that she would have replied in this way, but this is for sure what I would have deserved.

[nastyhobbitses]

2 hours ago, ihaveanexamintwodays said:

I'm from the South as well (born, raised, couldn't imagine living anywhere else lol) and I've been asked this. I'm very clearly Asian, though not the super-stereotypical eastern asian look, and I don't usually mind getting asked about it whether it be "What are you?", "Where are you from?", "Where is your family from?", "What is your/your family's nationality?", etc. A lot of people are just curious, though every once in awhile some stranger or another is straight up offensive. If I'm asking someone else I try and stick to the "where is your family from" - or if they have a unique accent or surname or something I'll ask about that specifically to clarify that I'm not trying to be intrusive or rude. That's just my philosophy on it, anyways, haha.

I remember feeling awful because I asked an Asian-American colleague (we were both working in China) where he was from. I had genuinely meant where in the US, and when he curtly responded "Pittsburgh", I realized that I should have maybe phrased it as "so where's home for you back in the States" or "where in the States are you from" or something like that. 

[Gillyweed]

I've never been asked "what are you?" But my mom, brother, and I have all been asked if we're Latinx (we're not). The last time my brother and I went to New York, a beggar came up to him and started speaking spanish, thinking he'd be more likely to know spanish than english. 

I actually find it pretty funny to be asked that. My maternal grandma recently got a DNA test done and found out that she's Greek, Italian, German, Middle Eastern, North African (we assume it's Egypt, since our family is from Sicily), and Norwegian. It's really interesting that all of that mixes togethet and makes us look Latino. 

[L1o2u3]

Latinx?  What on earth does that mean? 

[singsingsing]

6 minutes ago, L1o2u3 said:

Latinx?  What on earth does that mean? 

It’s the gender neutral version of Latina or Latino.

[Carm_88]

I've had people assume that I'm not a Canadian because of my accent. "So where are you from?" 

Me "I'm from Canada?"

Person "Oh ok. So where did you live before you lived in Canada?"

At this point I'm very confused because the anewer is my mother's  uterus and that was still in Canada. I don't think anyone has informed us that we are all supposed to sound exactly the same. Perhaps it was the lack of eh, I did say sorry a lot!

[Rachel333]

2 hours ago, singsingsing said:

It’s the gender neutral version of Latina or Latino.

And is not without controversy. I saw a post recently asking non-Spanish speakers not to use Latinx, and definitely not to lecture actual Spanish speakers who don't use it. I couldn't find that post, but I did find another one from someone discussing why he won't use Latinx. But then, of course, there are a lot of people who think the "x" ending should be used by everyone as much as possible. If I'm talking to a Latino/a/x person I try to just follow their lead, and generally most people I've met outside of a certain subculture just say Latino or Latina.

[samurai_sarah]

8 hours ago, nastyhobbitses said:

I remember feeling awful because I asked an Asian-American colleague (we were both working in China) where he was from. I had genuinely meant where in the US, and when he curtly responded "Pittsburgh", I realized that I should have maybe phrased it as "so where's home for you back in the States" or "where in the States are you from" or something like that. 

 

Survival 101 to salvage situations like that: Put on a huge smile and go "Oh, so I did guess right! I wasn't quite sure. I'm from X..."

But on the whole your re-thought strategy is probably better.

[Glasgowghirl]

2 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

Person "Oh ok. So where did you live before you lived in Canada?"

At this point I'm very confused because the anewer is my mother's  uterus and that was still in Canada. I don't think anyone has informed us that we are all supposed to sound exactly the same. Perhaps it was the lack of eh, I did say sorry a lot!

Ha, I have had people comment to me did your family come over during the potato famine because of my Irish last name. It's probably true but they meant it in a sectarian point of view. I pointed out that poor Catholics and Protestants both starved and the rich Catholic and Protestants. 

People assume everyone in Scotland sound the same too. People need to stop being ignorant.

[candygirl200413]

I've had the where are you from question but people ask because I have an accent ( which isn't an accent, people just think I talk too "white" which I end up slightly going off on them for various reasons but it mainly being a major microaggression) and because my name is foreign (I'm first generation american). It gets exhausting very quickly especially when they ask where I'm really from and I'm just like new england.

[NachosFlandersStyle]

13 hours ago, Rachel333 said:

And is not without controversy. I saw a post recently asking non-Spanish speakers not to use Latinx, and definitely not to lecture actual Spanish speakers who don't use it. I couldn't find that post, but I did find another one from someone discussing why he won't use Latinx. But then, of course, there are a lot of people who think the "x" ending should be used by everyone as much as possible. If I'm talking to a Latino/a/x person I try to just follow their lead, and generally most people I've met outside of a certain subculture just say Latino or Latina.

Oh wow, I didn't know people actually pronounced it with the x, I thought it was just a written convention to avoid writing "o/a." Shows what I know. I've also seen people write Latin@, I'm not sure where that fits in.

[CarrotCake]

If I want to know the racial background of a person I will usually ask: 'where does your family originate from?' I hope that is not rude to ask (in Europe).

[Rachel333]

4 hours ago, NachosFlandersStyle said:

Oh wow, I didn't know people actually pronounced it with the x, I thought it was just a written convention to avoid writing "o/a." Shows what I know. I've also seen people write Latin@, I'm not sure where that fits in.

I don't even know how you would pronounce some words with an "x" (like "amigxs") but apparently people do actually say "Latinx" that way. I've also seen the suggestion that it be pronounce "Latine," which makes a lot of sense (and in the piece I linked the author things that sounds more authentic to the language than "Latinx," which he feels is anglicized), but I'm not sure how common it is. I've definitely seen "Latin@" as well, and I don't know if people try to say that one out loud.

Gender neutral language gets a lot more complicated in gendered languages! Even my facebook Esperanto learners group got into a huge debate about it, with tons of drama. 

[Rachel333]

1 hour ago, CarrotCake said:

If I want to know the racial background of a person I will usually ask: 'where does your family originate from?' I hope that is not rude to ask (in Europe).

Well one potential issue is that for people of color this can be taken as someone saying "you're not really [nationality] are you?" That doesn't mean that you can never ask that, though, just that you want to be considerate of how the question could be taken.

Americans tend to really like talking about family backgrounds so even white people get that question all the time. I'm very tall and blonde so I very frequently get asked if I'm from a Scandinavian background, for example. (It's Dutch, actually, no Scandinavian that I'm aware of!) I think in my case being asked that doesn't have the same connotations that it could have if I weren't white.

I'll admit that I'm very curious and if someone has an obvious accent I will usually ask where they're from originally. I know some people probably do get tired of being asked that, but I've never had a negative reaction and have had lots of interesting conversations about people's home countries, which they're usually happy to talk about. I met a guy from Ghana a few months ago, for example, and he was really impressed that I knew who the president of Ghana was and seemed really happy to talk about his home. I also met a Welsh woman a few days ago (I didn't tell her this, but until I noticed the Welsh flag on her desk I actually thought she had a speech impediment, not an accent... whoops!) and we had a fun conversation about Wales and Gavin and Stacey. 

So I don't agree with people who say you should never ask about people's backgrounds because I've gotten to know a lot of people that way and more often than not they like talking about it, but asking someone with a local accent where they're really from just because they aren't white is where it gets offensive.

[CarrotCake]

@Rachel333 That sounds about right, I don't want POC to feel like I think of them as less Dutch than myself. That is why I always choose to use the word 'family' since that can also mean many generations ago.

But I always find it a very hard subject, especially because I am about the whitest person you will ever meet and I always find it difficult to be aware of my privilege.

[L1o2u3]

2 hours ago, Rachel333 said:

Gender neutral language gets a lot more complicated in gendered languages! Even my facebook Esperanto learners group got into a huge debate about it, with tons of drama. 

And it makes even less sense when the gendered language already has a neutral one which is just disliked by those that want to change the language  

Like in German, we have a plural form that means both men and women, however, that one is identical to the male one because we don't have male suffixes anymore, but people always confuse it with being the male form because they have no idea how grammar works  

[samurai_sarah]

1 hour ago, CarrotCake said:

@Rachel333 That sounds about right, I don't want POC to feel like I think of them as less Dutch than myself. That is why I always choose to use the word 'family' since that can also mean many generations ago.

But I always find it a very hard subject, especially because I am about the whitest person you will ever meet and I always find it difficult to be aware of my privilege.

I can understand where you're coming from, but if you asked me personally where my family was from originally out of the blue, I'd give you some serious stink-eye. Like, why would you want to know and what business is that of yours? Within context, say we're talking about genealogy or the politics of immigration or if I had brought it up myself, I wouldn't mind that question at all!

Too often, however the answer to "why would you want to know?" is "uh, well...you look different...". Different to what? Different to whom? Which norm am I deviating from? Or the answer is: "well, you look Asian". Yes, I had rather noticed that, what's your point? What more do you need to know?

I get that people are often driven by sheer curiosity and don't intend badly, but being constantly "othered" by questions about my ethnicity it makes me feel like I don't belong. It may be the first time you (general) ever asked someone where their family is from originally, but it's the thousandth time, I've heard it. And I for one am fed up with politely answering to satisfy someone's curiosity, while I feel shite about being "othered" yet again.

[victoriasponge]

I’m pale, like fenty 110, can’t find any makeup to match pale. Went to America, suddenly I had to be Scandinavian really. I mean, I don’t think I am, but I’m also british so I’ve mostly escaped the focus on where your ancestry is from (Ireland, as far as I know.. I know some of the other descendants ended up in Pennsylvania. And the other branch is from Grimsby, how exotic.)

[CarrotCake]

@samurai_sarahI would not ask someone that I do not know, mostly people I know for a while. I also don't think I would ask out of the blue but I am not sure if I ever did. At least not to someone I did not know (yet). 

But you are right, most of the times the reason definitely is sheer curiosity. Which should not be the number one reason to ask. Maybe I should be more aware of that.

[Coconutwater]

I live in the South and I do not have an accent, I’ve had the question “where are you from” my entire life and when I say from here no one believes me, I get the “no, where are you from originally?” I’m technically Caucasian, but my features apparently seem to give people the question of “what are you? You look Italian, Jewish, etc...” I usually just blank stare at them and then change the subject or walk away. 

[samurai_sarah]

12 minutes ago, CarrotCake said:

@samurai_sarahI would not ask someone that I do not know, mostly people I know for a while. I also don't think I would ask out of the blue but I am not sure if I ever did. At least not to someone I did not know (yet). 

But you are right, most of the times the reason definitely is sheer curiosity. Which should not be the number one reason to ask. Maybe I should be more aware of that.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. And thank you very much for trying to be more aware. I am glad that we can have this conversation, listening to each other. It is so fraught with complexities and mutual assumptions that we need to talk about it all, but too often balk. Particularly as Europeans. (Not excluding others, but @CarrotCake and I are currently talking about Europe).

So, here's my offer: If you are unsure, please do not hesitate to contact me. I can only give you my personal experiences and opinions, and in return ask no more from you. Deal?

[SapphireSlytherin]

I truly do not understand all this questioning of "what" someone is. I've never asked anyone "what" they are or where they are from (other than if they've just moved to town, and the obvious response based on context would be their previous residence).

I guess I'm one of the very few people who honestly does not give a moment's thought about heritage/race/whatever word you want, just as I'd never ask anyone about their religion/sexual orientation.

My family is a rainbow. My friends are an even more spectacular rainbow. I guess I was just taught that these sorts of questions are rude/tacky and none of my business. lol

 

[Rachel333]

The last few pages of discussion have been really interesting! And on a thread about Josiah Duggar, of all places. That's why I really love FJ's policy of allowing thread drift.

[Million Children For Jesus]

I’m in Southern California, and I get asked, “What are you?” and, “What’s your nationality?” all the time. Constantly. If someone asks, “What are you?” I usually ask, “Do you mean what’s my ethnicity?” and if they ask what my nationality is, I always say, “I’m an American.” Sometimes, they’re super rude and get defensive and snarky, and say things like, “well obviously,” or “you know what I mean.” If I like the person I might say, “My nationality is American, and my ethnicity is (gives answer). 

Most people are well meaning and might follow it up with a weird AF “compliment”, such as, “you should’ve been an actress,” or “you’re a good mix.” I used to especially hate this question during the Gulf War when I was asked this in a hostile manner as if I was somehow responsible for everything in Iraq because I looked Middle Eastern. I can pass for Middle Eastern, Latina, southeast Asian, Native American, Mediterranean, Jewish, sometimes Polynesian, definitely not Scandinavian, haha. My own driver’s license frequently doesn’t work because I can change my look easily, and one time I couldn’t board a plane with my own very real ID. I’ve also been denied using my real ID to write a check, buy alcohol, and once I was pulled over and had a police officer not believe my ID was really me. It’s kindof annoying.