Turpins 2- California Torture House (Graphic content discussed)

[FecundFundieFundus]

I am also sad to hear that you went through abuse, @ladyicantxplain. However, an abusive person who's into kinky things doesn't mean that the kinkiness caused the abuse. Most of the women I know who have discussed their rapes with me were attacked by "vanilla" men. Their preferring missionary position is not what caused them to violate another human being, either.

In fact, most of us perverted people have been practicing best safe practices long before it was popularized in the main stream: informed consent, explicit consent, safe words, etc. I learned about consent from BDSM, and it served me well in all sorts of relationships. 

ETA: Feminist porn is a thing, guys. There is an ethical way to consume erotica. You honestly think that watching porn is going to turn everyone into a crazed lunatic? 

[Flyingcat]

I hope to Rufus that the authorities keep Dr. Phil far away from this family. You just know he's all over this and would love to exploit the shit out of these kids.

[Rachel333]

Maybe in some cases abusers watching women get tortured did cause them to further abuse women. That doesn't mean everyone into BDSM will abuse others. I hate seeing people tell women they're wrong about the abuse they suffered. People were absolutely nasty to Elizabeth Smart when she said her rapist using porn made things worse for her, purposely misconstruing her words to mean that she was claiming everyone who watches porn is a rapist when she was talking about her own experience. I found that really disgusting and I don't want to see that here.

[Sideways]

10 hours ago, nausicaa said:

And there are photos of the mother pregnant with the youngest child, so it appears it is biologically hers. Fertility is nasty and capricious sometimes. 

It is possible that Monster #2 was especially fertile.  But could she also have availed herself of fertility treatment to have the last baby?  Fertility treatments  would fall in line with their other selfish expenditures, like the late model cars and trips and wedding dresses.  If she was desiring yet another child at age 49, she likely would have had to use donor eggs to achieve pregnancy.

[Rachel333]

She made a facebook comment referencing using fertility treatment.

[EmCatlyn]

1 hour ago, sockiemom said:

Very tragic. It looks like the older kids got the least food. 

The parents put them in groups - 3 oldest girls (all wear high heels), 3 little girls, 3 middle girls, 3 boys and 1 baby. The dresses and haircuts to infantilize them... 

I bet the annual jaunts to disney and vegas coincided with the annual shower.

Horrifying to imagine...

On the subject of the “annual shower,”  it wouldn’t surprise me if the ostensible reason was to save water.  It would go with the nonsense about “playing with water” if you washed above the wrist.  If the idea was to “save water” maybe the rule was removed when they were in hotels where the water didn’t cost anything.

For what it is worth, I find the restriction of showers/baths the least of the parents’ crimes.  Bathing is not a human need.  There have been times in Western history when people thought that bathing was unhealthy (Isabella of Spain famously boasted that she has been bathed only twice: when she was born and when she married. Her expectation was that her next full washing would be when she died and prepared for burial.). To be sure, people washed different parts of their body and possibly throughout the year every part got washed at least once or twice.  But a yearly bath would have been considered downright dangerous by some people in the sixteenth and seventeenth century.  

Someone up-thread mentioned how if some of the girls were menstruating it must have been especially hard not to be able to wash themselves.  But in fact it used to be believed that “washing” was unhealthy during menses.  (Wiping with a damp wash cloth when changing the “cloth” was all that my grandmother was taught to do, and my mom had to keep quiet about washng more than that to keep her mom from worrying.  My mom was born in 1923.). 

So lack of cleanliness may be uncomfortable, but except when you need to prevent the spread of germs, it is not in itself “unhealthy.”   If this had been all that the Turpins did, they would not be making the headlines.

This isn’t to say that I think it is okay for the parents to keep the kids from showering more than once a year, of course.  If nothing else, it is an example of their emotional abuse and need to have absolute control over the kids.

 

[feministxtian]

Just read this

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/parents-allegedly-held-children-captive-were-planning-move-174305417--abc-news-topstories.html

[lilith]

2 hours ago, AlwaysDiscerning said:

To add to the madness, this guy is saying Louise was clearly the leader of the family and therefore its implied that the abuse was all her doing. 

https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2018/01/23/shes-the-boss-child-torture-edition/

Dalrock is a lunatic MRA - he will blame anything on the woman.

[ladyicantxplain]

2 hours ago, AlwaysDiscerning said:

To add to the madness, this guy is saying Louise was clearly the leader of the family and therefore its implied that the abuse was all her doing. 

https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2018/01/23/shes-the-boss-child-torture-edition/

Dalrock is an MRA and purports to be a Christian, with all his misogynistic drivel.  He refers to women's minds as "the hamster" - it's no wonder he's pawned this ALL off on LT.  They are equally culpable as far as I'm concerned.

[EmCatlyn]

4 minutes ago, feministxtian said:

Just read this

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/parents-allegedly-held-children-captive-were-planning-move-174305417--abc-news-topstories.html

Thanks for posting.  This answers several questions.  It seems that the father was still employed, if he was being transferred, and it is probable that they were not at this moment planning to kill all the kids or themselves if they were going to be transferred.

Maybe they could have concealed one or two bodies, but even the Turpins couldn’t have thought that they could conceal 12 dead offspring.  Besides, I think they would have missed having the kids to abuse when they moved.

On the subject of some of the older kids abusing the younger, the hospital people have noted that the bond among the siblings is strong and may help them heal. The analogy made was to prisoners of war.  

Any one of the kids may have been forced to help punish the others. And it is likely that the parents occasionally pitted some of the kids against each other to earn parental favors (food?).  That doesn’t mean that the older kids were given the power to abuse the younger or that if they had the power they used it.

The seventeen year old didn’t escape on her own or for her own sake.  She had help and support from the siblings, and was even going to have company as she ran away. Her emphasis on getting help for the others was also obvious.  

 

[lilith]

16 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

Thanks for posting.  This answers several questions.  It seems that the father was still employed, if he was being transferred, and it is probable that they were not at this moment planning to kill all the kids or themselves if they were going to be transferred.

Maybe they could have concealed one or two bodies, but even the Turpins couldn’t have thought that they could conceal 12 dead offspring.  Besides, I think they would have missed having the kids to abuse when they moved.

On the subject of some of the older kids abusing the younger, the hospital people have noted that the bond among the siblings is strong and may help them heal. The analogy made was to prisoners of war.  

Any one of the kids may have been forced to help punish the others. And it is likely that the parents occasionally pitted some of the kids against each other to earn parental favors (food?).  That doesn’t mean that the older kids were given the power to abuse the younger or that if they had the power they used it.

The seventeen year old didn’t escape on her own or for her own sake.  She had help and support from the siblings, and was even going to have company as she ran away. Her emphasis on getting help for the others was also obvious.  

 

Elishaba, the eldest child of Bobby Hale (Papa Pilgrim) was made to discipline and beat her younger siblings, especially focusing on one brother she had raised from birth when he was taken from their mother as “punishment”. She used to whip him at their fathers command then hold him and weep with him. While there was some resentment, her siblings seem to have viewed her as a fellow victim and the older boys (next 5 children after Elishaba) in particular were very supportive and protective when it came to light that their father was sexually assaulting her.

I know that all situations and people are different, but while it wouldn’t suprise me if the Turpins made some of the kids act as enforcers, it’s likely that the kids recognise that they are all fellow victims.

[Fullfrontalhugs]

I don't remember during which vow renewal it was, but I noticed a small interaction between the kids that I would say looked almost "motherly." One of the smaller girls was standing with the older ones and appeared to be getting bored and fidgety, and the older girl gently put a hand on the younger ones shoulder, it seemed like an automatic response, something she might do often.

Of course this is pure speculation, some of the 13 may very well have been forced to abuse others but it looked to me like the older girl was protective of the younger one.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

On 23/1/2018 at 1:18 AM, FilleMondaine said:

You write all the walls you like. This has brought up a lot of yucky stuff for many of us, and it is important to express yourself in a safe environment. New to commenting, lurking for years. FJ folks are pretty great. Hugs.

Just a reminder that FJ is NOT a safe environment, it's just the internet, the place where out of two people one can be an ax murderer. Don't post things you'll regret!

[Beermeet]

This is a post from someone I peek at.  Homeschooling southern Baptist.   Anti-vax, Trump lover.  The usual.  I don't understand the homeschooling communities ( not all, of course) reaction to this tragedy.   The Turpins starved and tied up their children.  Torture.  But, this is what this mother of four hones in on?  No concern for the children at all.  And, "we" are the bad guys?!

 

[Beermeet]

1 hour ago, EmCatlyn said:

 

The seventeen year old didn’t escape on her own or for her own sake.  She had help and support from the siblings, and was even going to have company as she ran away. Her emphasis on getting help for the others was also obvious.  

 

In the video when the kids were leaving after saved, I couldn't help but notice that some literally ran out of that house.  No coaxing needed.  They really did seem to be relieved, as was reported.

[User error]

On 1/20/2018 at 11:06 AM, FecundFundieFundus said:

Because it's not always available? Not every special ed department is fully staffed with caring, attentive teachers qualified and prepared to help special needs children achieve their full potential. Some, sure. All or even most? Hahahaha. No. 

My son is not school age. He spends 6-10 hours a week in therapy appointments. This is partially covered by the state but still costs us about half what our rent is every month. He also has lots of specialist medical appointments, which are not cheap. Traveling to get the best surgeon? Not cheap. We're wealthy (in our eyes, anyway) and can afford it with budgeting. Most families around here are not as fortunate as we are. Those are the kids who will go without the services they need to reach their potential. 

We live in a city with cheaper cost of living and we've been repeatedly warned that we need to move before his therapeutic care/oversight is transferred from the state to the local school district. There isn't any money, the need vastly outweighs the available services, and it's just not where you live if you have a choice. 

Families wealthier than ours have fought tooth and nail with their school districts to get their kids what they are owed by law. It's exhausting, it's tedious, it's complicated, you have to pay lawyers... And sometimes you lose or can't wait the years for the legal battle (because your child is suffering while this is going on) and need to move to a different school district (sometimes necessitating change in jobs, house, downsizing to afford a better area, the whole shebang). 

Basically, for middle class families and below, raising a child with special needs is two full time jobs: parenting a high(/er) needs child and battling multiple institutions. Disability rights, parental leave, the healthcare system in America all suck. 

 

My step son is autistic and as the parent who manages the school side of things- this hits home.  My stepson has never had a good school experience and he has been in mid to large cities and good school districts in the US.  It’s a part time job keeping on top of it all- and you have to keep on top of it all to ensure IEPs are being followed.  With the number of IEPs in each class-things just fall through the cracks/get forgotten/overlooked otherwise.  Inclusion and being a part of his peer group is very important for my son, so we put up with it- but the phrase ‘there has to be a better way’ runs through my head a lot.

From another perspective my mother is a resource teacher (special ed teacher) in Canada and had no formal/practical training for the role in terms of how to work with or teach special needs children, outside a few theory based courses she took in how to write IEP/school documentation while getting her masters.  These courses ‘checked the boxes’ for her being able to oversee the special ed dept at her school.  A position she received because she was the only one who had the quilfications after staff downsizing/ district reorganizing.  She is a caring and compassionate individual who has taken the time to get further training and learn about each of her students. She truly has done wonderful things in terms of inclusion, but this is really an exception to the rule.  She was sick last year and the outpouring of support from her students and their parents was touching.

 

 

 

[EmCatlyn]

2 hours ago, lilith said:

Elishaba, the eldest child of Bobby Hale (Papa Pilgrim) was made to discipline and beat her younger siblings, especially focusing on one brother she had raised from birth when he was taken from their mother as “punishment”. She used to whip him at their fathers command then hold him and weep with him. While there was some resentment, her siblings seem to have viewed her as a fellow victim and the older boys (next 5 children after Elishaba) in particular were very supportive and protective when it came to light that their father was sexually assaulting her.

I know that all situations and people are different, but while it wouldn’t suprise me if the Turpins made some of the kids act as enforcers, it’s likely that the kids recognise that they are all fellow victims.

I agree that it would not be surprising if the parents made the kids act as enforcers.  What I was addressing is that it does not seem that any of the kids was abusive on his/her own.  I have known of a couple of cases where the parents co-opted the older kids as enforcers by giving them the freedom to abuse the others beyond what the parents demanded. (One former student from an abusive family was beaten by his older brother whenever the older brother was beaten by the father.  The older brother also had to punish the younger at their parents instructions, but he went beyond that.)

As you say, recognizing each other as fellow victims makes a difference in the dynamics.  It would seem that the Turpin kids have that, though it would not surprise me if there is a version of Jill Duggar among them who drank more deeply of the Koolaid, wasn’t ready to be rescued, and would have told the parents of the escape plans.  (S/he, if s/he exists will find it especially difficult to adjust, but at least s/he will be fed and not abused any more.)

[EmCatlyn]

This says that the younger kids will be split up in two foster homes and that the seven older ones will go into some sort of assisted living together.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/california-children-found-shackled-in-home-placed-in-foster-care/?ftag=CNM-00-10aac3a

I am glad they are keeping the older ones together.  I wonder if the 17 year old will be able to join them when she turns 18 if she wants to.

I hope the younger ones get the love and nurture that they need. 

The Daily Mail also reported on this with the misleading headline that the children won’t be “allowed” to stay together.  I think it is more that “it will not be possible for them to stay together.”

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5305679/House-Horrors-children-not-allowed-live-together.html

[FunFunFundie]

7 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

 

This isn’t to say that I think it is okay for the parents to keep the kids from showering more than once a year, of course.  If nothing else, it is an example of their emotional abuse and need to have absolute control over the kids.

 

But they weren’t allowed to use the toilet and at times were hogtied or bound, I think it’s a reasonable assumption that they were sitting in their own waste. Babies get diaper rash after a few hours in a poopy diaper, and it’s not just icky, it’s painful. If they weren’t able to clean themselves, and they were also in contact with feces, its definitely physical abuse.

[sassyNoz47]

I thought I read everything but i missed a lot I guess. Might need to re-read this entire thread. I missed all links to “web sluths” I don’t even know what that is. 

This is all hard for me to take in. This is very similar in many ways to what was happening in my very own family. My cousins lived in similar circumstances. We knew something was off but couldn’t figure it out exactly. My poor Grandma went to visit them every single Sunday. They lived a hour away so we took her . There was so much off with the from day one but the mother was the total abuser. She rarely let us in. When she did half the kids were missing. She barely spoke nor did the kids. Years later actually just in the last year the cousins are finally sort of reuniting with some of us  it took the death of my Grandma  and thier father before the truth came out  . But wow the stuff we found out.  The kids were usually home but locked in cabnits some for days at a time . 

They went to school  but kept their mouths shut  for one they thought this was normal  . One kid hinted something at one point and suddenly a day later they had a drug bust at his high school. They found them in his bag  , mommy dearest planted them told the school he had a drug problem . His dad believed mom, he knew of none of this abuse was rarely home  . Eventually the mom took off left 12 or so kids behind . She is still alive though lives on the streets  a druggie . After leaving my uncle  she had 3 more children I found out from her sister who I didn’t know exsisted until resently  . But she denies she has any children she never spoke to them again.  Only speaks to her sister I don’t even know how many kids this woman actually did have . But she had a kid at 42, 47 and 49  . That we know of  all where removed from her at birth no idea what became of them  .

 This woman is crazy I’ve found out so much about her I wish I never had. The other thing is well this crazy psycho person is actually my birth mother. I wish to god I would of never known. This got long so I’ll stop here for now I’m not sure many made it this far. Why I was spared , why she gave me up ( I wasn’t her husbands child’s but actually her husband brother is my bio father) but several of her kids she had them or aborted every 18 months were not her husband. But he loved them all and when he was home everything was normal in the house. It’s crazy how this happened in our own family. 

Yet it should of been my life. I can’t hate this woman I’ve never spoke to her she avoided even looking at me when we visited . But for some reason she must of had some love burried inside her. She gave me away. I couldn’t of had a better life. 

[laPapessaGiovanna]

9 hours ago, Rachel333 said:

Maybe in some cases abusers watching women get tortured did cause them to further abuse women. That doesn't mean everyone into BDSM will abuse others. I hate seeing people tell women they're wrong about the abuse they suffered. People were absolutely nasty to Elizabeth Smart when she said her rapist using porn made things worse for her, purposely misconstruing her words to mean that she was claiming everyone who watches porn is a rapist when she was talking about her own experience. I found that really disgusting and I don't want to see that here.

I absolutely agree. I don't agree with @ladyicantxplain blaming kinky sex for causing abuse. Kinky sex was clearly a tool of her abuser that definitely worsened her situation, but what defines abuse as such isn't the means with which it is carried out. What defines abuse is lack of consent, all the rest is accessory and contingent to one particular story.

Saying that kinky sex caused the abuse of the Turpin children, on the basis of the little we know, is a stretch of imagination. Kinky sex can attract people who are control freaks and prone to become abusers, that's why the BDSM community is so vocal about "safe, sane and consensual".

[SapphireSlytherin]

A little off-topic, but still pertinent:  regarding fertility in a woman's late 40s. An Illinois Senator announced her pregnancy yesterday - she'll give birth in April, right after she turns 50. FWIW.

[bea]

A little off-topic, but still pertinent:  regarding fertility in a woman's late 40s. An Illinois Senator announced her pregnancy yesterday - she'll give birth in April, right after she turns 50. FWIW.

Tammy Duckworth - a genuine hero. IL National Guard member, lost both her legs in Iraq after a helicopter crash, served in IL Congress, now state senator. I live in IL and have voted for her every time.
She did IVF to have her first child two years ago, and said it took multiple rounds to conceive the second time. In fact, she had a miscarriage during her last campaign. The woman is a tough cookie.

[apandaaries]

22 minutes ago, bea said:

 

Tammy Duckworth - a genuine hero. IL National Guard member, lost both her legs in Iraq after a helicopter crash, served in IL Congress, now state senator. I live in IL and have voted for her every time.
She did IVF to have her first child two years ago, and said it took multiple rounds to conceive the second time. In fact, she had a miscarriage during her last campaign. The woman is a tough cookie.

 

Yes.  Tammy Duckworth is about a million kinds of amazing and just keeps improving.  Glad you're voting for her!  It's always so lovely to have a smart, sane, brave politician in office. 

[nausicaa]

12 hours ago, Sideways said:

It is possible that Monster #2 was especially fertile.  But could she also have availed herself of fertility treatment to have the last baby?  Fertility treatments  would fall in line with their other selfish expenditures, like the late model cars and trips and wedding dresses.  If she was desiring yet another child at age 49, she likely would have had to use donor eggs to achieve pregnancy.

I wouldn't be surprised about that at all. She had been talking about a #14 as well, at age 49...

I should have been clearer: when I said "biologically hers" I was trying to say "not the product of one of her daughters being raped" and didn't know a more tactful way of putting that. There are fairly plausible photos of LT pregnant (with a popped belly button and everything) so I do think it's likely she carried the baby and delivered it.