Maxwell 16: At least one Maxwell got fed for Thanksgiving...

[Lea]

11 hours ago, picklepizzas said:

I bet they don't think it applies to them. I really think they think of themselves as usefully employed, great conversationalists. I'm not sure Chelsy even means it as a dig. Her standard for what it means to know  how to 'handle herself and work in public' and not qualify as a sahd certainly does not meet mine - she's lived at home until 26, working for her parents and the family band. She's cooler and way more fun than the maxwell girls but she's basically living the exact same lifestyle. She probs means this as a dig to those sahd who aren't even pretending to work or go to school. 

Yeah, I just found it interesting that she is writing that the label itself isn't even biblical (in her opinion), when it seems like that is a proud label for a lot of other people in the community (I'm thinking Botkins....).
I completely agree that she isn't necessarily doing much different in her actions from the other women, but to outright reject that label seems like a stronger stance than I normally see the other women take.

[picklepizzas]

1 hour ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

No it's not. They have non family staff. They've posted pictures of staff members and they are not any Bontragers I recognize. Also they have many non family customers they are interacting with on a daily basis without family supervision. 

I think it's because I know how the Amish and Mennonite do things first hand. They are not always chaperoning daughters. The thought is actually pretty laughable. The Amish I've interacted with all my life have way too much to do than constantly keep eyes on their adult daughters. This is quite unlike the Maxwells in this one particular area.

Even if they have non family staff, it's a small hotel owned and operated by her family. I'd be willing to bet a lot that the staff are handpicked and screened for godliness (just like any non family swift otter staff) - the hotel's website lists its purpose as "to glorify god". 

On the spectrum of hard working and exposure to outside influences I'm sure the bontrager ladies are well ahead of the maxwell ladies, but I hold that both families are keeping their daughters sheltered at home until marriage, just trying to find productive ways to occupy their time until marriage. And I think that both families *think* that they are on some superior plane, above those who champion the "sahd" movement. But really they're both espousing it. (I mean are there really any sahd champions who say "do nothing with your time before marriage" these days? Even the Botkin girls most recent post advocated for developing skills while you wait to be married). 

ETA: let me put it this way - They might be scornfully rejecting the label, but I think any sahd movement champion would have gladly pointed them out as paragons of doing the movement right - girls living under their family's protection while sharpening useful skills that might help them work alongside a future husband, while employed at a wholesome family business. (Yeah they might be living away from home sometimes to work but I'm pretty sure Allison is/was living with her brother and sister and law when at the hotel. And seems to still consider her home to be the family home based on her blog posts). 

[JermajestyDuggar]

4 minutes ago, picklepizzas said:

Even if they have non family staff, it's a small hotel owned and operated by her family. I'd be willing to bet a lot that the staff are handpicked and screened for godliness (just like any non family swift otter staff) - the hotel's website lists its purpose as "to glorify god". 

On the spectrum of hard working and exposure to outside influences I'm sure the bontrager ladies are well ahead of the maxwell ladies, but I hold that both families are keeping their daughters sheltered at home until marriage, just trying to find productive ways to occupy their time until marriage. And I think that both families *think* that they are on some superior plane, above those who champion the "sahd" movement. But really they're both espousing it. (I mean are there really any sahd champions who say "do nothing with your time before marriage" these days? Even the Botkin girls most recent post advocated for developing skills while you wait to be married). 

I think the purpose of FJ is to not paint them all the same although they may hold similar beliefs. I will always point out differences between fundie families. It's important to point out the similarities AND differences. It does no good to paint them al the same. This doesn't mean I'm somehow sticking up for the Bontragers. It's often seen as sticking up for fundies on FJ and I admit I get tired of having to make disclaimers because I'm just pointing out differences. The bontrager brand of fundie is a little different from the Maxwell brand of fundie. And it's most likely because of their A/M background. 

[Queen Of Hearts]

14 hours ago, Lea said:

Yes! This is exactly what I was wondering. Are the marrieds not considered to be "in the family" anymore?

In Maxhell, once you are married you become 'extended family.'  Frankly, it's one of the most weird things about Maxhell, in my opinion.

[picklepizzas]

3 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I think the purpose of FJ is to not paint them all the same although they may hold similar beliefs. I will always point out differences between fundie families. It's important to point out the similarities AND differences. It does no good to paint them al the same. This doesn't mean I'm somehow sticking up for the Bontragers. It's often seen as sticking up for fundies on FJ and I admit I get tired of having to make disclaimers because I'm just pointing out differences. The bontrager brand of fundie is a little different from the Maxwell brand of fundie. And it's most likely because of their A/M background. 

I'm not accusing you of sticking up for them - And I share your exhaustion with the need for disclaimers here. I just genuinely think this conversation is very interesting, since the bontragers really do present well and everyone seems so gleeful that chelsy is really sticking it to Steve somehow. I see a lot of similarities between how the two families treat their daughters, and I wanted to point out why I don't think chelsy or Allison were sticking it to the maxwell girls with their sahd post - bc I bet they think the girls are also productively employed and hard working. But hey maybe not. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

I personally don't think Chelsy was somehow pointing to the Maxwell girls in that post. But I definitely think Chelsy and her family do things differently than the Maxwells and I pretty much guarantee it bugs Steve. And I love it. Because Steve is one of the most controlling patriarchs we talk about on FJ. And I have a strong aversion to controlling men. 

One of the more interesting topics on FJ is the coming together of fundie families through marriage. It's funny because fundies are so precise in the forming of their own families. They homeschool, cut internet access, monitor all social activity, and so much more. But then suddenly there's this OTHER fundie family that might do a few things differently. They have to bend to this other family and their differences if they want their children to marry and start a huge family of their own. How hard that must be for some fundie parents! Of course you get families that seem to fall in love with one another (ex smortons and Bontrager/Bowers) because they seem to have so much in common. But we now see how it turned out with the smrtons. Boy do they seem to hate eachother now. 

[Palimpsest]

15 hours ago, Lea said:

Yes! This is exactly what I was wondering. Are the marrieds not considered to be "in the family" anymore?

They become "extended family" once they marry.

59 minutes ago, meee said:

@JermajestyDuggar this is fascinating. I don't know that much about the Amish/Mennonite, but I do have one question - what, exactly, does "fundy" mean? I thought it was simply "extremely religious/fundamentalist" but you are differentiating. Are Amish/Mennonite not fundamentalist, then?

Not the person you asked, but we use Fundy or Fundie very broadly here.  Briefly, "Fundamentalism" means an unwavering faith in a set of beliefs written in stone.  Extreme literalism when it comes to scriptures and dogmas, very much a protective "us" versus "outsider" mindset, and no tolerance for diversity.

That can apply to any religion - and does.  We tend to use Fundie as a pejorative term for extreme religious views we don't agree with, believe to be patriarchal, or find overly restrictive and legalistic.  They don't have to be Christian.

Technically, however, Christian Fundamentalism was a Protestant and evangelical movement that started in the early 20th century and refers to people who believe in the "Five Fundamentals."

• The virgin birth
• Jesus' death was the atonement for sin
• Bodily resurrection of Jesus
• Biblical infallibility of scripture
• Jesus' miracles are historically true.

Mainstream denominations believe a lot of the above stuff.  Some are more literal and legalistic than others.

The Christian Patriarchal Movement is a splinter group Of Christian Fundamentalists that gained ground in the mid 20th century - and a lot of the people we talk about here are part of that movement.  See Gothard, Phillips and Steve Maxwell.  Submission, SAHDs, the umbrella of protection and all that crap.

The Amish and Mennonites are Anabaptists (very much believer's baptism) and the roots of their religion are way back in the 17th century.  I'd call them Fundie, and there are commonalities with the Christian Patriarchal Movement, of course, but I don't put them into exactly the same box.   

The Bontrager parents seem to have been converted from Amish to Christian Patriarchy - but Chelsy seems doubtful about SAHDs - yay!  Steve Maxwell must be steaming!

Good grief.  I really need to catch up.  I take my eye off the Maxwells for a couple of weeks and they actually get interesting.  How dare they!  

[daisyjane1234]

1 hour ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I want to point out that there are similarities and differences between Amish/mennonite beliefs and fundie beliefs.

Hi.  Member of a Mennonite community here (baptized as an infant in a different church, but largely identify with Mennonites these days). I mostly lurk, but would like to jump in for a moment.

I would like to point out that the Mennonites are a very diverse group of people unified by two core beliefs - adult baptism, and non-violence.  After that there is a broad spectrum ranging from the Old Order, as described above, to Modern Mennonites who are VERY theologically progressive and do not, in any way, resemble the fundamentalist community.  Mennonite Brethren would likely fall somewhere around the middle.  Sort of fundy-lite as described here.  In terms of worship, Old Order Mennonites would worship very much like the Amish.  Modern Mennonites would look a lot like any mainline Protestant church and would welcome anyone.

My kids attend a Mennonite school and my adult son attended a Mennonite university. We are active in a (Canadian) Mennonite community.  The school, in particular, would be very liberal.  They emphasize global social justice, pacifism, environmental issues, radical inclusion, active support for refugees, and so on. Trump is openly derided.  His policies are viewed as blatantly anti-Christian by our community.  LGBTQ people/leaders/teens would be accepted and fully supported.   Same sex/ trans etc. would not be considered a sin, but rather part of a person's Divinely given identity.  The kids' school subscribes to mainline modesty standards.  Shorts, miniskirts, sleeveless shirts - it is all fine.  

 

[nomoxian]

I got something better than cutting lettuce with a pizza cutter - Cutting lettuce with an industrial shredder!

[ophelia]

1 hour ago, Palimpsest said:

The Amish and Mennonites are Anabaptists (very much believer's baptism) and the roots of their religion are way back in the 17th century.  I'd call them Fundie, and there are commonalities with the Christian Patriarchal Movement, of course, but I don't put them into exactly the same box.   

 

I totally agree with you and I think one of the things that are different between the Christian Patriarchal Movement and Amish/Mennonite communities is the fact that A/M don't advertise their way of life the way ATI/VF do/did it. Guys like the Tool, Boob, Gothard, etc. shove(d) their superiority into everybody's faces.

[JermajestyDuggar]

1 hour ago, daisyjane1234 said:

Hi.  Member of a Mennonite community here (baptized as an infant in a different church, but largely identify with Mennonites these days). I mostly lurk, but would like to jump in for a moment.

I would like to point out that the Mennonites are a very diverse group of people unified by two core beliefs - adult baptism, and non-violence.  After that there is a broad spectrum ranging from the Old Order, as described above, to Modern Mennonites who are VERY theologically progressive and do not, in any way, resemble the fundamentalist community.  Mennonite Brethren would likely fall somewhere around the middle.  Sort of fundy-lite as described here.  In terms of worship, Old Order Mennonites would worship very much like the Amish.  Modern Mennonites would look a lot like any mainline Protestant church and would welcome anyone.

My kids attend a Mennonite school and my adult son attended a Mennonite university. We are active in a (Canadian) Mennonite community.  The school, in particular, would be very liberal.  They emphasize global social justice, pacifism, environmental issues, radical inclusion, active support for refugees, and so on. Trump is openly derided.  His policies are viewed as blatantly anti-Christian by our community.  LGBTQ people/leaders/teens would be accepted and fully supported.   Same sex/ trans etc. would not be considered a sin, but rather part of a person's Divinely given identity.  The kids' school subscribes to mainline modesty standards.  Shorts, miniskirts, sleeveless shirts - it is all fine.  

 

Thanks for correcting me. I interacted with both Amish and Mennonite growing up and I base my observations on one area of the country. I know all communities are different because they all tend to decide amongst themselves what is best for their group so you can have some very conservative groups and some much less conservative groups. I admit I've never encountered Mennonites that liberal! I know they tend to be more liberal than Amish but that's really liberal! Lol. I'm also in the US and never met a Canadian Mennonite. 

I figured I would be corrected so I'm not offended lol! Thanks! I admit I speak more on the culture than the religion since I never attended a service of either group. 

My husband's grandmother was ex-Mennonite (US not Canadian) and was conservative in religion but a hard ass worker and always worked outside of the home when many women still stayed home with the children. SAHDs would have horrified her.

[mango_fandango]

Liddy is Lydia. They use nicknames for almost all the grandkids bar Calia (can’t make many nicknames out of that) and Joshua. Strange how Ruthanne, Lydia and Daniel get “Ruthie”, “Liddy” and “Danny” but Joshua is always Joshua; I’ve never seen him referred to as Josh.

[JermajestyDuggar]

8 minutes ago, mango_fandango said:

Liddy is Lydia. They use nicknames for almost all the grandkids bar Calia (can’t make many nicknames out of that) and Joshua. Strange how Ruthanne, Lydia and Daniel get “Ruthie”, “Liddy” and “Danny” but Joshua is always Joshua; I’ve never seen him referred to as Josh.

Is there another Josh somewhere in the extended family? You know how weird those Maxwells are about having the same name (Anna Marie for example).

[Granwych]

3 hours ago, nomoxian said:

I got something better than cutting lettuce with a pizza cutter - Cutting lettuce with an industrial shredder!

Dayumm, how big is your family??

[lilith]

One of the things I’ve always found fascinating a out the Bontragers (long before the double wedding and Chelsy’s descent into Maxhell made them FJ favourites) is their combination of Mennonite heritage and modern fundamentalism.

They remain close to the huge Mennonite families that both their parents came from, and their parents siblings and their cousins range from very conservative mennonites to cousins who dress “modern modest” with tiny lace caps to patriarchal fundamentalists to mainstream Christians. I’m sure there is a non believer or two in the extended family too, even though they aren’t highlighted - the altar calls at the weddings must be for someone, and it’s much more likely they would invite non believing family than that they would have non believing friends.

The Bontragers associate with lots of Gothardites, but I’m pretty sure they don’t use ATI curriculum. They were very into Vision Forum though, and I’m sure they continue to use their materials and subscribe to their beliefs surrounding patriarchy and gender roles. Their yearly conference and family camp seem designed to keep them in the fundie loop, and they try to get the big fundie names to speak at them. But I’m not sure if they identify as baptists like most of those families, though they attend and are very involved in a large baptist church.

They are very involved in politics - Mr Bontrager organised a group of homeschooling parents who gave a lot of support to the Cruz campaign, and the whole family followed the campaign and volunteered. One of the sons blogs about politics and apparently it’s a common conversation topic. They have definitely left their pacifist Mennonite roots behind and support American military interventionism and the NRA.

When they tour they visit Mennonite and Hutterite colonies and seem to be very welcome. Yet they also play at mainstream churches, fundie churches, county fairs and political rallies.

They seem better educated than many fundies and actually have some musical talent (though some, especially a few of the boys, should stick to playing instruments and accept they aren’t great singers). I suspect they are also more financially secure than many fundies - their farm is successful, and they can afford to have it managed while they tour six months of the year. I’ve never seen them solicit donations, except for for republican candidates.

All in all, I find them very interesting, both for their similarities to most fundies and for their differences.

[FloraKitty35]

6 hours ago, mango_fandango said:

Liddy is Lydia. They use nicknames for almost all the grandkids bar Calia (can’t make many nicknames out of that) and Joshua. Strange how Ruthanne, Lydia and Daniel get “Ruthie”, “Liddy” and “Danny” but Joshua is always Joshua; I’ve never seen him referred to as Josh.

I am surprised that Calia isn't called Gracie, like NR Anna is Anna Marie.  

[Naga Viper]

13 hours ago, mango_fandango said:

Thank God we didn’t get the Poppy Seed Loaves recipe. We get that multiple times but no post about how to cut a certain leafy green vegetable with a certain rounded cutting implement...?

Until I hear otherwise, I'm just gonna assume they're legit pizza cutter ninjas. Like, I'm picturing Anna tossing up a head of lettuce and Sarah—with a cutter in each hand—leaping and shredding the entire thing in midair, leaving Mary to catch the rain of perfect julienne in a bowl. Max-Wu Style, Advanced Full Skirt Technique.

I mean, you just don't share a secret like that outside your clan.

[FloraDoraDolly]

10 hours ago, ophelia said:

I totally agree with you and I think one of the things that are different between the Christian Patriarchal Movement and Amish/Mennonite communities is the fact that A/M don't advertise their way of life the way ATI/VF do/did it. Guys like the Tool, Boob, Gothard, etc. shove(d) their superiority into everybody's faces.

True, the Amish and Mennonites don't go around trying to convert outsiders. Also, they don't think much of Christians who quote the Bible every time they open their mouth. They think those people are showing off. Obviously, the Bontragers are really into the Bible Bee, but I don't know if they quote Scripture a lot during arguments or casual conversations the way other fundies do.

[JermajestyDuggar]

18 minutes ago, FloraDoraDolly said:

True, the Amish and Mennonites don't go around trying to convert outsiders. Also, they don't think much of Christians who quote the Bible every time they open their mouth. They think those people are showing off. Obviously, the Bontragers are really into the Bible Bee, but I don't know if they quote Scripture a lot during arguments or casual conversations the way other fundies do.

I've always wondered about the showing off the Bontragers do. I bet their grandparents keep their opinions to themselves but secretly don't like it,lol. Like so many grandparents! 

[Jingerale]

11 hours ago, nomoxian said:

I got something better than cutting lettuce with a pizza cutter - Cutting lettuce with an industrial shredder!

Amazon affiliate link, please. 

[church_of_dog]

1 hour ago, Naga Viper said:

Until I hear otherwise, I'm just gonna assume they're legit pizza cutter ninjas. Like, I'm picturing Anna tossing up a head of lettuce and Sarah—with a cutter in each hand—leaping and shredding the entire thing in midair, leaving Mary to catch the rain of perfect julienne in a bowl. Max-Wu Style, Advanced Full Skirt Technique.

I mean, you just don't share a secret like that outside your clan.

She waited too long, someone beat her to it!

 

But I find pizza cutters hard to clean, so I think I prefer this:

https://www.amazon.com/GAMAGO-EA1102-Gama-Go-Lettuce-Chopper/dp/B004WHRRQM

Please disregard the yodeling pickle.

[terranova]

None of the adult children have nicknames. Even Christopher is always called by his full name and never Chris. No Joe, or Nath.

[ophelia]

@lilith, you perfectly described the Bontragers in my opinion. I find them fascinating as well, especially the fact that their large extended family (with different ranges of believers and even non-believers) seems to be quite close with a lot of celebrations and family gatherings. They seem to have a lot of fun when they are together and enjoy the time they are able to spend with each other.

[CyborgKin]

Why stop at lettuce though?

http://www.sheknows.com/food-and-recipes/articles/1093487/pizza-cutter-uses

[nomoxian]

18 hours ago, Granwych said:

Dayumm, how big is your family??

Surprisingly, I was an only child the entire time my mother was married to my Mormon father.