Counting On - Season 4, part 4 - Where Time Isn't Linear and Everyone Is a Relative

[Lurky]

4 minutes ago, BecausePrayer said:

I think Ben and Jessa seem to be at least moving in the right direction by challenging some of their own beliefs and speaking against things that none of their family/friends would, but we still don't know how far that'll go.

Yeah, I think we won't be able to really have any idea about meaningful change from the 2nd Gen until the 3rd Gen get to school-age, and/or they've been married for 10 years and we can see the size of their families. 

I am completely on-side for people to choose good quality homeschooling, with plenty of opportunities for socialisation, but I can't see how any of the Duggar daughters could provide decent education, since their own was was limited - and marrying the sons off to teenage girls who had their own SOTDRT experience makes me worry for them too.

(In the meantime, and forever, I fervently hope that all the 2nd Gen Duggars & Bateses, and all the families we follow, only have boy children, so they have to stop the sister-mom tradition!)

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

26 minutes ago, Lurky said:

(In the meantime, and forever, I fervently hope that all the 2nd Gen Duggars & Bateses, and all the families we follow, only have boy children, so they have to stop the sister-mom tradition!)

Well, except that Mackynzie and Meredith are already here. 

[Lurky]

6 minutes ago, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

Well, except that Mackynzie and Meredith are already here

Yeah, I feel for them, and the Bateses 3rd Gen girls, and wow, I hope they don't get sister-mommed and trapped in the life.

[SassyPants]

9 hours ago, saywhat7 said:

Since this page is slower right now, I have always wondered... what is your definition of them being free? From reading here it seems like some want them to have the exact opposite of all their current beliefs. Do they have to flip to pro-choice and atheist?  

Free for me would mean that adults being able to be and do whatever they want with their lives after age 18...single, married, man, woman, doing what they choose to do. No one should be forced to be involved in a privacy suck, dog and pony show to increase their parents’ coffers.

[justoneoftwo]

I just have to ask, what if they want to be what they are?  How would we ever know?  They think they want it now, are they free?  

Just asking because its a complex topic.  I don't think they know yet if its what they want, but I can see Jessa as an example being very happy in the life she has, without changing, maybe even with a huge number of kids.  If she is happy and chose it is she free?  If she pushes her kids to be like her, they may not be free, but is she?  

[Lizzybet]

Could someone point me in the right direction to see parents of the bride and groom, what they were wearing, how they presented? usually don’t give a rat’s tush, but hearing how good Michelle looked and how good looking Kendra’s dad is, I’m DYING to see.

No cable, waaah!

 

[Lurky]

28 minutes ago, justoneoftwo said:

I just have to ask, what if they want to be what they are?  How would we ever know?  They think they want it now, are they free?

Right now, life is probably pretty good for Jessa, she only has 2 kids, and she has TLC money, and she likes the fame.  But the way the Duggars present their beliefs, she doesn't have the choice to limit her family size in any way.  I don't call that "free" - that's a total lack of bodily autonomy.

And take, for example, Joy talking about how she hates dresses, and had to learn contentment to like the girly stuff when she had to give up playing with the boys.  She clearly hated a lot of the last TLC series, and performing femininity for the TV cameras, but had no choice.  Sure, she's probably tons happier living with Austin than at home, but she never had a choice.

Or Jinger's "I am not worthy" crying, and how her spirit seemed crushed, and how she wanted to live in a big city and seemed to want be a photographer but couldn't be, only a wife - or Jenni wanting to be a vet.  Of course not every little girl who wants to be a vet grows up to be one, but she has NO choices and can't get a decent education.    That's definitely not freedom.

I mean, they might not be actively miserable (as Jill was in SCA, from her interviews about it) but I wouldn't say they're free right now. 

 

[albireo]

18 hours ago, candygirl200413 said:

Quote

...and to TRULY have the honour of wearing a white dress..(not with 10 kids in tow that they don't even know for sure who the father of each is)..

 

Pfft, because a white wedding dress TOTALLY means something other than that Queen Victoria invented modern wedding fashion. /s

[MoonFace]

21 hours ago, Londish said:

Good catch!

I wonder if it wouldn’t be useful for a to use the link to message Discovery to ask them not to renew? 

I left a message for them to cancel the show as the whole family is a joke and there is too much controversy

[SayWhat]

12 hours ago, saywhat7 said:

Since this page is slower right now, I have always wondered... what is your definition of them being free? From reading here it seems like some want them to have the exact opposite of all their current beliefs. Do they have to flip to pro-choice and atheist?  

No to the last question.   My definition of them being free ...

Free to show true emotion and speak from their true self .  Freedom to be authentic.  Examples: Freedom to be discontented.  Freedom to be a bitch.   Freedom to NOT give a FUCK about what other fundies think.

Free to choose a career outside of Gothard approved boundaries.  Freedom to  play in a rock band, to be an astronaut, a  lab tech, a law enforcement officer, a plumber, a chef , a physician, or a stay at home Dad or Mom.  The key point is that it is his or her desire and choice to pursue careers, hobbies and interests.    

Freedom to make their own choices.  If those choices involve  becoming a agnostic, an atheist, converting to Catholicism, becoming a Lutheran, staying within their fundiedom  or just saying I don't know I am searching.   

Several examples of their lack of freedom, is when Jinger was expressing a desire about wanting to live in a  large city when married,  Jill jumped in and corrected her and said she will be content where ever God takes her.  FUCK THAT !    If Jinger has a desire to live in a big city why does she need to be content to live in the country ?  

When he was young,  Douche bag Josh expressed an interest in being a lawyer, he was given a used car lot and married off young.  No freedom there.  One of the lost girls wanted to be a veterinarian, do you think she will be allowed to pursue that dream ?  

[feministxtian]

Freedom: 

Make their own EDUCATED choices. Realizing they have no right to attempt to legislate their morality (abortion, same-sex marriage). It's like this...you don't have to agree with something, but you cannot attempt to prohibit others from doing it. You can be a fairly conservative Christian and have no desire to see your beliefs legislated. I have my beliefs...do I want to see them made law? Nope. 

Stop breeding. You cannot do a good job of raising a houseful of kids. Send the kids to school (private/public). Let the kids participate in LIFE...little league, scouting, dance/music/whatever. 

Choices in dress. I feel fat and frumpy and dress that way. BUT...I don't think everybody should dress like me. 

Working outside the home for the women: If they want to...get an education of some sort, develop some marketable skills. You never know when they'll come in handy! (speaking from experience). 

As I've said, I'm a member of the same sort of church...HOWEVER...I would rather see some of these folks pay more attention to Matthew 25:31-46. Generous social safety nets, REAL contraceptive/sex education. Universal health care, paid parental leave, subsidized child care (Head Start, etc). As regards abortion...keep it legal. I'm old enough to remember the stories of pre-Roe v. Wade. Stop trying to legislate morality. Stop the war on women. I'm old, have no remote chance of getting pregnant (thank God), but I am concerned for my daughters and granddaughters...

I don't have to agree with you to love you. OK? 

[nickelodeon]

In my opinion, while these people are required to evangelize their parents' quiverfull and IBLP dogma on cable TV for their primary income - and rely on JB's generosity for room and board, childcare, etc - they're not "free" to make meaningful independent choices for their lives. When being fundie is your job, there's not a lot of room for self actualization.

[SilverBeach]

I don't give a fuck about their freedom. I give a fuck about them working to create a theocracy where people just like them are in control of everybody else. I give a fuck about them promoting that hateful asshole Dumpy as though he is actually a Christian. Believe whatever the fuck you want, but using those beliefs to oppress others? Hell no.

That said, its always good to see people break out of abusive cults like the FLDS, where human rights violations are common. People regaining their self-determination and capacity to think for themselves are becoming free, even a Duggar (wishful thinking here). 

I understand that the Gothard cult has abusive aspects also,  but the Duggars and Bateseses are willfully blind to it. They suck so badly, ugh.

[motelmum]

I haven't read this thread yet so this might be a little out of left field but I wasn't sure where to put it.

Today whilst perusing for Xmas decorations / table toppers etc I came across this little fellow (see spoiler) I just had to share. At first I was huh? Then I thought well perhaps they cater to the Duggars and their ilk? 

 

Spoiler

http://shop.davidjones.com.au/djs/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10051&productId=7104181&langId=-1&storeId=10051&cm_mmc=googlesem-_-PLA-_-Home+and+Garden+-+D?cor+-+Seasonal+and+Holiday+Decorations-_-Oberfraenkische+Glas+Christmas+Pickle+Ornament&gclid=Cj0KCQjwvuDPBRDnARIsAGhuAmaA-aiomJp5ntt_rKhsQ8NI85HlwoqFkSnRKkrAx1_ufApzgyXdg_waAqPsEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds this is the link if you would like one.....    

 

[CarrotCake]

 

12 hours ago, Lizzybet said:

Could someone point me in the right direction to see parents of the bride and groom, what they were wearing, how they presented? usually don’t give a rat’s tush, but hearing how good Michelle looked and how good looking Kendra’s dad is, I’m DYING to see.

No cable, waaah!

 

You know you can watch the show online right? (although it is probably not legal)

 

 

 

 

[QuiverFullofBooks]

4 hours ago, motelmum said:

I haven't read this thread yet so this might be a little out of left field but I wasn't sure where to put it.

Today whilst perusing for Xmas decorations / table toppers etc I came across this little fellow (see spoiler) I just had to share. At first I was huh? Then I thought well perhaps they cater to the Duggars and their ilk? 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

http://shop.davidjones.com.au/djs/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10051&productId=7104181&langId=-1&storeId=10051&cm_mmc=googlesem-_-PLA-_-Home+and+Garden+-+D?cor+-+Seasonal+and+Holiday+Decorations-_-Oberfraenkische+Glas+Christmas+Pickle+Ornament&gclid=Cj0KCQjwvuDPBRDnARIsAGhuAmaA-aiomJp5ntt_rKhsQ8NI85HlwoqFkSnRKkrAx1_ufApzgyXdg_waAqPsEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds this is the link if you would like one.....    

 

Supposedly it’s a German tradition. But yeah, I’ll bet they have one.

[motelmum]

Thanks @QuiverFullofBooks I have never come across one before.  Australia is a wonderfully multicultural and I don't mean to make fun of somebodies traditions but it just stuck me as unique and the first thing I thought of was the Duggars. 

[nst]

14 hours ago, justoneoftwo said:

I just have to ask, what if they want to be what they are?  How would we ever know?  They think they want it now, are they free?  

 

look at the latest video on Duggar Facebook, Jill is teaching Hazel aka johanna how to cook.  Clearly Jill feels the need to continue to teach her buddies.  Jill who couldn't handle SCA and is now just at the TTH all day because she can't leave the cult.  Jill of everyone is back because she can't handle the world. 

[SweetJuly]

I know I'm really behind, but I only just got around to watching the JoKen wedding episode, and one thing that really struck me was how absolutely horrible the boys' room is.

These tall bunk beds crammed into what seems like a rather small room to start with. And then to imagine some 10(?) boys, teenagers and young men all having to share this tiny, crowded hell hole...

No wonder these kidults yearn for marriage. Marriage is their only way into a self-determined life that allows them at least some sort of privacy, freedom, and possibility to develop or pursue individuality.

The shared bedrooms, especially the awful boys' room, are a good visualisation of the life the Duggar children lead at the TTH, both literally and figuratively.

[SapphireSlytherin]

I've had a pickle on my tree since 1989, when my German neighbors gave me a blown-glass one. My daughter (27) still hunts for it on the tree every year.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

On ‎10‎/‎31‎/‎2017 at 6:40 AM, saywhat7 said:

Since this page is slower right now, I have always wondered... what is your definition of them being free? From reading here it seems like some want them to have the exact opposite of all their current beliefs. Do they have to flip to pro-choice and atheist?  

I think the adults being able to choose their life path, like choosing when to have children, or how many children to have.  I think Jinger is free, yes she's married to a misogynistic conservative Christian hater, but she's not pregnant yet and has been married for a year, and I do think it is by her choice.   She's getting to live in a larger city, she's traveling, her husband seems to love her very much, she's reading books, taking pictures and enjoying being a young woman.  She's no longer under her parents control, and that alone is almost everything.  It remains to be seen how much 'authority' Jeremy wields over her but what ever that is, she seems very content with it.

Jill is still totally at the mercy of her father and her husband, Jessa, has a bit more freedom as Ben isn't an authoritarian, but she is still dependent on daddy for housing.  While she is the CEO of the Duggar brand, she still needs her family for her paycheck. 

Not sure on Joy yet, she's married to a man who can provide her a home and a steady income without relying on JB so she is not longer required to be under his thumb, but is Austin as horrible as Boob?  Only time will tell with her.

Josh is screwed and I don't care he can rot.

Joe and Kendra are young kids playing house right now. 

I'm interested to see where they all are in 10 years, who's still preaching hate, who's STILL having babies and who is just over all of it and working and staying away from their insane family.

[HermioneSparrow]

Education is freedom. None of them are free.

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

@motelmum, I don't know much about the origins of pickle ornaments, but I think some families use it as part of a game or competition. The person (or maybe only children play?) who is the first to find the pickle ornament on the tree gets to be the first to open a present.

At least, that was my introduction to pickle ornaments. When my mom was still teaching kindergarten (she retired in the 1990s), she asked her students what they liked best about celebrating Christmas. (Or whatever their family celebrated. It was still a pretty homogeneous neighborhood back then, so few kids, if any didn't celebrate Christmas.) 

One little guy said his favorite thing was finding the pickle first, but that last Christmas, he didn't say anything when he found it, because he wanted his little sister to have a turn being first. I knew him a little bit from a different place and he was often such a sweetie; generous and kind with other kids.  

[AtlanticTug]

36 minutes ago, HermioneSparrow said:

Education is freedom. None of them are free.

I've always believed that one of the root problems in the Middle East is the almost total lack of SECULAR education. If you think about it, most of the other evils flow therefrom - you have a very large and young populace which is essentially ignorant other than chanting one verse or another, they are necessarily therefore excluded from the quickly evolving global economy, the women are trapped in an endless cycle of early marriage and too many children so the families are mostly doomed to live in crushing poverty under authoritarian regimes. The Duggars and other fundies who also do not provide their children with an opportunity to be educated in secular schools are not much better. Their kids are just as ignorant and prone to brainwashing.

[Eternalbluepearl]

2 hours ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

I've had a pickle on my tree since 1989, when my German neighbors gave me a blown-glass one. My daughter (27) still hunts for it on the tree every year.

I grew up with this tradition. A pickle ornament was hidden on the tree and on Christmas morning us kids would try to find it. The winner got an extra present, usually $10. I plan to do this with my own kids someday.