Counting On - Season 4, part 4 - Where Time Isn't Linear and Everyone Is a Relative

[MarblesMom]

Just now, feministxtian said:

They're all fucking insane.

  Amen.

The cycle has to end.  

[Seculardaisy]

2 hours ago, MarblesMom said:

I read through all of this, wondering why we are picking apart a dress, despite who might have worn it best.

Marrying off a nubile, innocent female to an equally immature "headship" who may or not have the means to support her, or the dozens of kids she is supposed to produce.... any comment on that?!

I dislike the weird dress AND their beliefs.

You're right, it's important to continually call them out on their toxic ideals. I try not to focus too much on things like the crazy modesty clothing that they wear but as a human sometimes you just can't resist. Also in some ways I think talking about the crazy dresses and lengths they go to in making them uber modest is part of talking about what's screwed up in their culture. Michelle covered her body room her neck to feet in fabric to prove to the world that she is SOO modest and godly. She's clearly much better than ankle and collar bone showing heathens of the world. In some ways that dress is the perfect visual representation of how their cult views women and sexuality. It's all part of the bonkers fundie package.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

The dress is almost a manifestation of their hideous beliefs. It's as if, someone said if your beliefs were a dress what would it look like? And that is what was created.

[2manyKidzzz]

@allthegoodnamesrgone  You are brilliant!!! Absolutely. Wow. We need to remember this analogy. And the pointy boob thingies that go with it. 

It is so ugly. 

Brilliant.

[FeministShrew]

I've been busy with end-of term work, & then I got the flu, so I've been reading sporadically but not posting or even liking much. I just have to say, wow! The cone boobs! Those dresses look like they were designed by a comic illustrator/video game artist who really loves boob armor. If I could find one, I'd take off the skirt & modify the bodice into a Wonder Woman/Amazon cosplay. Or lose the modesty panel & shrug & make it a mermaid costume, since the layered ruffles look like scales. (Not snarking on the ladies at all, just that dress.) 

It's the last thing I would think of as modest. Like, don't they realize you can cover almost every inch of skin & still be risque? Nippled cone boob-holders are not modest.

Also, I did the whole "look at my belly! I'm pregnant!" thing with my first, too. I started wearing maternity clothes and holding my abdomen before I even had the slightest bump, lol. I was happy to be pregnant, and wanted everyone to know. I was 25.

 

[LillyP]

I'm going to cut Joy and other pregnant people some slack on touching their belly. Honestly....it's a natural reflex and half the time you don't even realize you're doing. I'm 32, pregnant with my first, and basically every moment of every day is some weird twitching/pain/weird feeling - it's not uncommon for me to feel or hold my stomach. I was in maternity pants by 12 weeks. I could have maybe made it a bit longer (not really a bump yet but things weren't fitting mostly from bloating) but we were in the process of selling our house and moving into a rental while we build - I wasn't going to take along tons of clothing I'd only wear a few more weeks. Instead I just sucked it up and got into maternity clothes a bit early. Also, I found that while wearing maternity photos made my bump more pronounced (and I'm sure some people thought I was flaunting it early) the alternative was looking like a frumpy whale in ill-fitting regular clothes.

Do I think they're all bat shit crazy? Of course, but some people are always just looking for the most ridiculous reason to hate on them.

[merg429]

On 10/25/2017 at 11:15 PM, NakedKnees said:

2) I'm kind of surprised Anna was a bridesmaid. She's older than Kendra enough to be considered more like a role model than a peer. Are they actually close? If so, how do they talk about their partners? I want to picture Anna as a badass, experienced wife and mom who's been through the wringer and wants Kendra to know everything she didn't know when she was a young bride. I just don't know if that could be the case though.

My first thought was that she is the only other "sister-in-law" and adding on to what you said above, it could be good for her to have Anna to get a "woman marrying into the family prospective". 

[IReallyAmHopewell]

47 minutes ago, merg429 said:

 

NakedKnees: I want to picture Anna as a badass, experienced wife and mom who's been through the wringer and wants Kendra to know everything she didn't know when she was a young bride.

Right  ....  Nope. She will be there to teach her to remember its Jesus First, Others Second, Yourself Last. She will be there to show her how being a humble, servant of God leads to a happy and successful marriage. Here's hoping that Joseph tells Josh to get lost and never darken Kendra's new doorstep and never touch the future children.

 

[nst]

2 hours ago, IReallyAmHopewell said:

 

Right  ....  Nope. She will be there to teach her to remember its Jesus First, Others Second, Yourself Last. She will be there to show her how being a humble, servant of God leads to a happy and successful marriage. 

 

She will be there to teach her she can't have a massage, she can't have a facial, she can't have any fun.  She has to show to be humble and meek.  Her life is not fun. 

[brookeb82]

20 hours ago, MarblesMom said:

  Amen.

The cycle has to end.  

It might be!

http://www.duggarfamilyblog.com/2017/10/new-season-of-counting-on.html

[Londish]

33 minutes ago, brookeb82 said:

It might be!

http://www.duggarfamilyblog.com/2017/10/new-season-of-counting-on.html

Good catch!

I wonder if it wouldn’t be useful for a to use the link to message Discovery to ask them not to renew? 

[Shadoewolf]

People are all over TLC's Facebook telling them it should be cancelled. Feel free! 

[candygirl200413]

Read a comment under the groommen's pic:

Quote

I think all women,girls would secretly love to be treated the way the Duggar ladies are loved by their fathers,boyfriends or spouses. .that is why it's watched!! The majority of the women who post and say such nasty and vulgar things just wish they could have the life of these Godly women. Who would not love to be treated like they are? ...and to TRULY have the honour of wearing a white dress..(not with 10 kids in tow that they don't even know for sure who the father of each is)..funny,those are the ones criticuzing..ironic,huh!!

6

[Dandruff]

Quote

I think all women,girls would secretly love to be treated the way the Duggar ladies are loved by their fathers,boyfriends or spouses. .that is why it's watched!!

Not exactly.  I happen to have no interest in a mandatory daddy fetish, being dry-humped in public, or experiencing fundie romance with a stranger via Skype.  It has been interesting watching some of this nonsense though.

[SassyPants]

On 10/29/2017 at 10:59 PM, feministxtian said:

I just shake my head...these children are ill-prepared to be adults. Uneducated, secluded, isolated in their little bubble...what's going to happen when reality bites them in the ass? (See Jill and 2 c-sections). They don't have the coping skills to adult, let alone raise a family. I honestly believe that Ben and Jessa are probably the only couple that has at least some of their shit in one sock. I'm glad that JinJer have not reproduced yet...they might end up being the smartest couple...they're coming up on a year w/o kids. Damn. Joe and Kendra will be announcing before the end of the year. JinJer may announce after the first of the year, but that'll put the birth of Vuolo spawn #1 at almost their 2nd wedding anniversary. 

They're all fucking insane. I have no problem raising children with some sort of moral foundation...however, to twist their little minds and intellects to the point where they're barely literate and pretty much unqualified for any sort of career which would support a family...no...

I'm a rather uneducated sort who made many mistakes raising my kids...but they figured out fairly quickly that if they wanted the nicer things in life, some sort of education was necessary. I'm not saying that everyone needs some 4 year degree...hell no! But, apprenticeships, tech schools can land you a fairly decent paying job...what do these kids have? Grifting 101 from daddy? 

And even worse, JB has convinced the kids that his way is best and that they are better prepared for a successful life than the rest of society. I think some of them are slowly realizing that is not the case.

[saywhat7]

Since this page is slower right now, I have always wondered... what is your definition of them being free? From reading here it seems like some want them to have the exact opposite of all their current beliefs. Do they have to flip to pro-choice and atheist?  

[Gillyweed]

9 minutes ago, saywhat7 said:

Since this page is slower right now, I have always wondered... what is your definition of them being free? From reading here it seems like some want them to have the exact opposite of all their current beliefs. Do they have to flip to pro-choice and atheist?  

If that were to happen, it'd take decades. I think I'd consider them "free" if their kids are allowed to go to public school, interact with other children and people without trying to convert them, and to distance themselves from fundie beliefs. I think they'd still be Christian and probably kind of conservative, but hopefully more open-minded. 

I think the 3rd generation is more likely to be "free" than the 2nd. 

[VelociRapture]

9 hours ago, candygirl200413 said:

Read a comment under the groommen's pic:

Yes, because being abused by your parents and elder brother is obviously preferable to having children out of wedlock. 

ETA: The quote didn’t come over, but that was directed at the quote and not you. Lol!

2 hours ago, saywhat7 said:

Since this page is slower right now, I have always wondered... what is your definition of them being free? From reading here it seems like some want them to have the exact opposite of all their current beliefs. Do they have to flip to pro-choice and atheist?  

I think it depends on the poster. For me, what I’d like to see is:

 - less focus on legislating their religious beliefs onto everyone else. I consider anyone who mixes religious beliefs and legislation to be somewhat Fundie to be honest, but it’d be a great start if they stopped using religion as justification for every political belief they have.

Couples doing it well: None of the Duggars or Bateses in my opinion. Especially not Whitney Bates, who flat out stated who she voted for last election because they would make God first again in the country. 

- some sort of understanding that their lives and POVs aren’t the only valid ones.

Couples doing it well: Not sure about Jessa, but Ben has at least been trying. Jeremy pretends he’s a great intellectual, but he only reads stuff that agrees with his opinion - so he’s out. Same with the Dills and the Smuggars. Too early to tell for the four newlyweds. I think the Bateses are better at pretending they understand other POVs, but I don’t think any of them have really shown a great affinity for this so far. 

- the third generation being allowed more freedoms - like being able to interact with non-cult kids or attend school or even just take part in extracurricular activities. 

Couples doing it well: It’s too early to tell for the most part because the kids are so young. I do think it’s decent that the Webster girls and Kaci Bates are at least being offered a wider wardrobe selection so far, but that doesn’t mean much in regards to how they’ll be educated or what opportunities they’ll be offered. 

- not treating women like broodmares. I’m big on couples making choices best for them in regards to reproduction, but not every couple is cut out for constant pregnancy and huge numbers of kids. I’d love to see less emphasis on quantity and more on quality.

Couples doing it well: JinJer is doing well on this so far and I think Benessa are truly enjoying their boys (as are Jill and Anna), but their true attitudes remain to be seen. The Websters have decent spacing between their daughters and have gone on record about not wanting a huge family, but wanting something and making it happen are two very different things. ZachNey have never said what their plans are, so we can’t really be sure about them. Their recent choices would make it seem like they may not be planning on more, at least for now. We can’t know about the Keilens because of their infertility struggle - I would very much hope that any child they do welcome is loved and given the chance for a good education though. 

- a shift towards more equal partnerships.

Couples doing it well: I think Benessa is the only one of the Duggars that are kind of shifting this way, likely due to a combination of factors. I could be absolutely wrong, but I get the impression that they at least attempt to make decisions together once in a while. The same could be true for them Vuolos, but I get the feeling that Jeremy is very much an in charge type of guy and that Jinger is content with that - they haven’t been married long though, so it’s possible that could change with time. The Websters appear to divide up family responsibilities to an extent, mostly because Alyssa still helps with cleaning office spaces. I think ZachNey are slowly moving more in this direction as well, especially now that Whit will be bringing in some sort of income. 

I’m likely forgetting stuff. But these things would be a decent start in my opinion. 

ETA: I completely left Cherin out on purpose. I personally think that out of all the married couples with kids that they may be the most Fundie of them all. They have a beautiful family and seem to really enjoy their lives, but I just have a hunch that they’ll be among the couples who stay most committed to the overall lifestyle. 

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

I guess that I would consider them free if they could truly make their own decisions and choices about everything and not just say that they're making their own decisions. Other than external changes like @VelociRapture and @Gillyweed mention, I don't think that there's any way for us to know that. Theoretically, they could all be truly free to choose,  but all make the same abhorrent choices. 

[NakedKnees]

4 hours ago, saywhat7 said:

Since this page is slower right now, I have always wondered... what is your definition of them being free? From reading here it seems like some want them to have the exact opposite of all their current beliefs. Do they have to flip to pro-choice and atheist?  

I echo a lot of the above. "Free" would mean free to make their own choices with regard to faith, family size, education/career, lifestyle choices (including drinking, clothing, dancing, etc.), and probably more.

In terms of "hot button" issues that they have strong Christian-conservative stances on, I'll probably get a little OT but let me try. I have no problem with them being morally opposed to abortion personally, but I wish they would respect people who don't take that stance and allow them to make those decisions with their medical providers. To me, that's technically pro-choice. Similar with athiesm: I have no problem with them being Christians and performing evangelism. If they could respect athiests, listen to their viewpoints, and include them in their circles of friends, that would be great.

Most important, if any of them (in any of the generations) could "come out" as pro-choice, nonreligious, LGBT+, politically liberal, anti-white-supremacy, and/or anti-patriarchy and still have the love and support of their family, that would be enormous to me. I think we're possibly seeing changes like breaking from Gothardism, quiverfull thought, and maybe even headship/helpmeet marriage styles, but nothing much bigger than that.

[justoneoftwo]

I think I have both lower and higher standards for freedom.  I think they can stay very religious, pro-life and so on and still be free.  For me its about making their own choices, which is hard to tell from the outside.  

I would say any women working outside the home would make her free.  Limiting family size. Children going to school (accredited). But mostly its about standing up to the parents, which we will never be able to see.

[2manyKidzzz]

I would like to see educational opportunities for all of them. That can move people ahead for sure. Think if Jill was allowed to go to nursing school and on to becoming a professional midwife. That might change a lot.

[cascarones]

In a nutshell: Ultimately, freedom to me for them means freedom to live their lives how they want to and to let others do the same. To not feel the need/be forced/ whatever push their beliefs on the masses. The understanding of the difference between proselytizing, trying to legislate versus being welcoming. There is a huge gulf between the two and I don't know if they truly understand the second option or how in the real world you can have friends that believe differently than you on a fundamental level, friends that don't need or want your belief system. I think that's an underlying reason why they target Catholics over non-Christians in Missionary efforts.

I agree with everything posted so far, so I'll take a different slant and step away from the religious and personal side. I'd like to see them free from the Duggar brand, which contractually right now, they aren't. If they have a differing opinion, I don't think they're allowed to say it, you see it on some of their faces how completely over the filming and repeat questions they are.

Does Jeremy have grand preaching dreams and want book deals, a megachurch, whatever? Most likely, can he do that with any beliefs he holds that are in direct opposition to the Duggar brand? No, his beliefs are equally as hateful from what I've heard, so maybe this isn't a bad thing, but he's been very careful on his discussions on purity culture and family size. He also probably doesn't want to make any moves until contracts are unraveled, because we have no idea the true pay structure/ familial pressure of money distribution. 

Are we already seeing some of these issues with Derick? The family has definitely distanced themselves from him on social media (for good reason, because dude spews more hate in a week than they did in years) as has Cross Church. Is he free to build a brand based on hate, he most certainly seems to think so.

On an even more basic level, freedom from contracts means the freedom for a private life, if they want it. These kids were raised on tv, but if given the chance I think some of them would more than happily never step back into the limelight again.

[Lurky]

I echo what everyone else says about freedom being stopping trying to legislate their beliefs on anyone else.  And stopping things like Derrick picking on Jazz Jennings, etc.

I want the 2nd and 3rd Generation to have the same freedom of choice to choose their own paths that JB & M did.  I want the 3rd gen and the younger 2nd Gen to have good quality educations, and not to be limited to a single path.  If that means some of them choose to be SAHMs, that's fine, but I want it to be a free choice, where it clearly isn't now.

I want them to be able to have lives separate from JB & M, and not to have financial obligations to 'keep sweet'.  Sure, some might choose to live close, but I wish they had options to go to college if they wanted, or do jobs if they wanted.

I absolutely wish they could limit their family sizes, because I just don't think it's possible to give enough attention and love to 12 children (and both my grandmothers were 1 of 12/3). 

And if a kid is LGBT, or an atheist, or wants to go to a secular college etc etc, they're accepted by the family and loved, even if the parents don't like the ideas.

[BecausePrayer]

I think that any change towards "freedom" that may happen is unlikely to be seen as long as they have the need to keep up the family brand for the show. Doesn't mean its not happening, just that it would be hidden from viewers and maybe even JB&M if they are relying on them financially.

I think Ben and Jessa seem to be at least moving in the right direction by challenging some of their own beliefs and speaking against things that none of their family/friends would, but we still don't know how far that'll go.