Dillards 43: Tweeting for God

[Lurky]

36 minutes ago, JDuggs said:

The gangs in Central America probably don’t like missionaries who come to their country and tell its citizens that crime and violence are wrong. 

I'm sorry, this is reaching.   There is absolutely no evidence that the Dillards were targeted by gangs in any way!   They were not providing medical attention in a war zone, or trying to help trafficked children etc

37 minutes ago, JDuggs said:

If there are missionary situations in the world where you don’t feel constantly threatened, I think Jill would adapt well. I don’t have any idea if those situations actually exist though.

I don't even know what you mean here -  there are a whole load of FJers who've been on mission trips, and we talk about any number of Fundies that go on short- and long-term mission trips all the time.  I know the Fundagelicals like to promote everything they do as dangerous, but in the majority of the world, no one is in physical danger for trying to convert Christians to Christianity, they're just treated with disdain.  

40 minutes ago, JDuggs said:

If Jill felt she could have contributed to their cause instead of being locked away at home, she probably would have been happier.

I do agree with this, but Jill wasn't not contributing because it was too dangerous, it's because her culture wouldn't let her.  In her world, married women don't work, especially when she has a small child.  She can accompany her husband on his work, and meet with other mothers, but she has to always be a Wife and Mother first. 

And her parents have made certain that she has no skills at all, which is the really shitty part, to me.  I dislike Jill, but wow I feel for her - the girl who wanted to be a nurse but settled for "midwife training" with someone objectively dangerous (good job, Duggar parents!) and couldn't even complete that.

I say this a lot, but I don't think it was Jill's fault she was always told she did Missions great, or even that their family Missioncations were the same as living there - I absolutely blame JB & M for this.  I mean, how did the pre-Courtship conversations even go, when Derick said he wanted to be a missionary abroad?  JB&M did nothing to help make their life overseas a success.

Out of all the couples we talk about, the Courtship model has been terrible for these two, but I don't even understand how Jill's parents did absolutely nothing to prepare her for the life she'd have, except tell her to pray more.  

 

[2manyKidzzz]

I was actually very surprised that neither of them could speak Spanish and were sent to SCA. Because I think many people have indeed studied Spanish just not the Dullards. 

26 minutes ago, Fundie Bunny said:

Seriously, how big is Izzy? He is only two, how can a baby be that tall? I think my 6 year old cousin is barely taller than him. He is going to be even taller that Derick

He is tall. I think it is at 3 that they say to double the height and that will be your adult  height. Could be a myth though.

[HideousGreenShirt]

1 hour ago, Georgiana said:

Yeah, well I notice all the people in favor or tonsillectomies are the people who have already had or could potentially need their tonsils removed. The tonsils are NEVER consulted. Why aren't we talking about that?

 

 Won't somebody please think of the tonsils! 

[Hashtag Blessed]

11 minutes ago, Lurky said:

I say this a lot, but I don't think it was Jill's fault she was always told she did Missions great, or even that their family Missioncations were the same as living there - I absolutely blame JB & M for this.  I mean, how did the pre-Courtship conversations even go, when Derick said he wanted to be a missionary abroad?  JB&M did nothing to help make their life overseas a success.

Out of all the couples we talk about, the Courtship model has been terrible for these two, but I don't even understand how Jill's parents did absolutely nothing to prepare her for the life she'd have, except tell her to pray more.  

I agree with you totally here. I feel so sad for Jill, in spite of how insufferable I find her. She was so shortchanged by her parents. She could have been an RN and met and married someone she was actually compatible with. She could have been a doctor and joined Doctors Without Borders if she really had such a heart for helping people overseas. Instead she's undereducated and chained to a hateful imbecile, filled with delusions of grandeur and white man's burden.

I can't think of anything that would drive me to suicide faster than being expected to subsume all of my own wants and needs in favor of a man I barely know, who basically owns me, and the 20 children I'm expected to birth for him. And the reason she's so much more pitiful to me than the others is because, out of them all, I think she's the one who most genuinely believes that that's what god wants for her. SO sad. 

[Seculardaisy]

20 hours ago, nst said:

to be fair - jinger has not had two pregnancies and two c sections.  Omg I am defending Jill 

 

18 hours ago, VineHeart137 said:

Hey now, I know plenty of moms, including moms of multiples, who have a sense of style and know how to dress!

I mean, I'm not one of them. But I know they exist!

Somewhere in Florida mom of two, Alyssa Webster, is clutching her paisleyKate’s dresses aghast. 

[Palimpsest]

52 minutes ago, JDuggs said:

I think Jill deserves a break about the missionary stuff. I believe that she does “have a heart” for it, but the reality was that they were in a much more dangerous setting than they anticipated. 

Jill may indeed have a "heart" for being a missionary.  So may Derick.  I have a "heart" for being a prima ballerina.  I just lack the talent and the years of training.

 The problem for Jill was probably that her idea of being a missionary was based on those stupid short-term misscations with SOS and her family.  She hugged a few orphans and handed out a few worthless toys and thought it was all totally cool.  She found the reality of living in CA very different. 

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I think if Jill didn’t fear for the safety of her family, she would have been fine. I don’t think the sparse conditions bothered her or the lack of the amenities of home. Their friend was murdered while they were there. The gangs in Central America probably don’t like missionaries who come to their country and tell its citizens that crime and violence are wrong. If Jill felt she could have contributed to their cause instead of being locked away at home, she probably would have been happier.

They were not preaching to gangs.  They were preying on the local population.  Trying to converts Catholics to "Christianity" is idiotic.  And not very popular for most of the locals, not just gang members.  

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If there are missionary situations in the world where you don’t feel constantly threatened, I think Jill would adapt well. I don’t have any idea if those situations actually exist though.

Oh, they have found one.  They are now preying on international students while living safely in Arkansas.  If Derick washes out on that he can go and convert Catholics in Little Rock.  There are also plenty of IFB "missionaries" to dangerous places like Alaska, Massachusetts, and Rhode Island.  Some of the people there may even speak Spanish.

I also hear that Scotland is in dire need of missionaries.  Or so Jody Hodnett would have us believe.

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I wonder if their type of missioning is so exclusively preaching, without enough extras like schools, healthcare, and childcare, that they don’t build up enough goodwill to be valued by the communities they are attempting to serve.

No need to wonder.  Their style of missionarying is indeed only preaching and baking banana bread.  They have no skills to share.  Just look at their resumes - and their stated goals.  They want to convert people to their particularly toxic brand of fake "Christianity," that is all.

If they really want to be missionaries overseas they should develop skills that are useful where they plan to go.  Accounting is a skill but probably not much use.  However, Derick could get teaching and TEFL certification while still playing around at Cross Church.  Jill could perhaps go back to school and get a nursing degree and learn how to be a real midwife.  

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Also, can’t blame Jill for Derick not being fluent in Spanish.

I absolutely blame Derick and Jill for not learning to speak Spanish well BEFORE they decided to be missionaries in Central America.  It is a basic skill for missionaries to be able to communicate with the people they are supposedly there to help.

7 minutes ago, Hashtag Blessed said:

I feel so sad for Jill, in spite of how insufferable I find her. She was so shortchanged by her parents. She could have been an RN and met and married someone she was actually compatible with.

I feel very sorry for Jill too.  Her education was screwed by her parents and by Gothardism.  The only thing approved by Gothard is that (useless IMO) lay midwife certification.  Jill worked very hard at that, and then got screwed again when her hands-on training was wiped out because Vanessa Giron's midwife license was revoked.  For cause.  Jill may have passed the written exam but all the practical work needs to be done again.

I think Jill actually has very good potential to be an RN as well as a midwife.  However, the chances of her going back to school are minimal now she is saddled with useless Derick and has two children to care for.  It is sad.

[Hashtag Blessed]

17 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

I absolutely blame Derick and Jill for not learning to speak Spanish well BEFORE they decided to be missionaries in Central America.  It is a basic skill for missionaries to be able to communicate with the people they are supposedly there to help.

I'm not sure that this is at all unusual for evangelical ministries though. I know of a couple of missionaries in Europe who did not know the language at all when they first went, aside from a few words. They spent their first year there going to language school. To be fair to them though, the native tongue of the country they are in is not one that is easy to find classes for in America. Spanish doesn't have that excuse at all. I know of another couple in France, and they I think spoke conversational French before they moved? But I think they expected to learn more "on the job" so to speak. Both couples, by the way, had a heart for living in these specific countries more than they did for helping people to Christ. And these are not countries in need of special skills, so they're there to mostly just hang out and make friends. Pretty sweet deal, in my opinion. Crowdfunding your emigration in the name of Jesus. Shame no one will pay me to move to my country of choice and spread feminism. I'd have such a heart for that!

[Palimpsest]

5 minutes ago, Hashtag Blessed said:

I'm not sure that this is at all unusual for evangelical ministries though. I know of a couple of missionaries in Europe who did not know the language at all when they first went, aside from a few words. They spent their first year there going to language school. To be fair to them though, the native tongue of the country they are in is not one that is easy to find classes for in America.

Really.  Was it Basque?

Yes, there is a glut of useless, unqualified, evangelical "missionaries" scampering around the world, sponsored and paid for by the gullible, on extended vacations.  Most of them don't do much damage.  

Some of them have the potential to do a lot of damage, however.  I put the Jills and Dericks in that bracket, along with the John Shraders.

Developing countries do not need them. 

 

 

17 minutes ago, Hashtag Blessed said:

Shame no one will pay me to move to my country of choice and spread feminism. I'd have such a heart for that!

You should really read the Jody Hodnett threads.  

[Fundie Bunny]

2 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

Really.  Was it Basque?

Given that some people that live there don't even boder to learn it because is just too fucking complicated, i doubt it 

[Palimpsest]

1 minute ago, Fundie Bunny said:

Given that some people that live there don't even boder to learn it because is just too fucking complicated, i doubt it 

I was trying to think of an obscure European language not commonly taught in the US.

[Fundie Bunny]

2 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

I was trying to think of an obscure European language not commonly taught in the US.

Maybe slovenian, croatian, czech, finnish, hungarian (personally the worst one i've heard), latvian, dutch, swedish... We are small and have hated each other for centuries, there's plenty to choose from . And now i'm curious, i know there was a big wave of polish inmigration to America, is it easy to learn polish there?

[Georgiana]

4 minutes ago, JDuggs said:

I think Jill deserves a break about the missionary stuff. I believe that she does “have a heart” for it, but the reality was that they were in a much more dangerous setting than they anticipated. You call it “Scary America” which I suppose is a sarcastic way to say that the Dilllards were exaggerating the level of danger they were in. I think if Jill didn’t fear for the safety of her family, she would have been fine. I don’t think the sparse conditions bothered her or the lack of the amenities of home. Their friend was murdered while they were there. The gangs in Central America probably don’t like missionaries who come to their country and tell its citizens that crime and violence are wrong. If Jill felt she could have contributed to their cause instead of being locked away at home, she probably would have been happier. If there are missionary situations in the world where you don’t feel constantly threatened, I think Jill would adapt well. I don’t have any idea if those situations actually exist though. I wonder if their type of missioning is so exclusively preaching, without enough extras like schools, healthcare, and childcare, that they don’t build up enough goodwill to be valued by the communities they are attempting to serve. Also, can’t blame Jill for Derick not being fluent in Spanish.

See, but what you describe, the situation where maybe Jill would have been happy, simply ISN'T missionary work. It's like saying you love chocolate cake, but only when the cake is strawberry flavored instead and doesn't have chocolate in it. I'm the wrong kind of Christian (Catholic), but we would call what you describe "evangelizing". Missionary work means ministering to people in underdeveloped places, which almost always goes hand in hand with corruption and danger. But I can't really blame Jill for not knowing that. No one taught her otherwise. 

By the same token though, words have meaning, and I can't blame Derick for taking Jill at her word. THIS is what she said she wanted.    Actually, not even this, because this was kind of missionary-lite. And that's got to be frustrating for Derick. 

But regarding the danger, the truth is that I think it was less "real danger" and more "Jill's inability to cope".  I think everyone would have been more understanding if Jill's behavior was more justified by circumstance, including Derick. However, Jill and Derick lived in a carefully guarded compound with other Americans/foreigners. While there WAS danger, it wasn't at their doorstep. Students studying abroad and living in homestays run more risk than they ran.  And while I get that not everyone handles that well, the issue was really on Jill and her inability to make a (rather reasonable) adjustment. And I am prepared to die on the hill that internalized  racism played a big part in her feeling so unsafe. If she stopped otherizing brown people and tried to belong instead of holding herself apart and above them, she probably would have felt safer as a member of the community and less targeted.  She would have started to see danger as restricted to dangerous people, and not as omnipresent as she seemed to think. She would have had more resources available to her. More help. Felt less isolated and alone.

And I get that Jill had a baby, but that is why MOST MISSIONARIES PRACTICE SOME FORM OF FAMILY PLANNING if both parties want to minister. I mean, you have to know how it's going to work if you bring an infant along. Even Jill should have known that. I have to say THIS one is on her. They had a lot of time to change or delay their plans after learning they were expecting Izzy if they weren't comfortable bringing a young infant. 

But I don't blame Jill for not knowing she couldn't do this. I blame her parents and elders for not sitting her down and EDUCATING HER on what mission work really takes. I blame the org she went with, and anyone that helped make this disaster a reality.  I don't think she INTENDED to deceive Derick at all. I do not believe Jill has a malicious bone in her body. Many other annoying bones, sure, but I have never doubted that on some level, she always means well.

But she still did misrepresent herself. And that really sucks for Derick, because as disgusting as he is, all his dreams are in the trash now...and it's hard not to feel for someone who has had that happen. I'm not in a courtship by any means, but because I am dating someone from a different country, I did a lot of checking to be sure we were on the same page before starting to date him. And it wasn't malicious, it was just "here is where I am at and what my goals are for the future, and if you aren't into that, I don't think less of you, but let's not waste our time." If he changes his mind, I would understand on a human level, but also...what about me? What about my life? What about my goals and dreams? There's a certain level of betrayal that comes with being very upfront with someone about your major life goals, having them initially agree, and then having them go back on their word. It may not be something they did deliberately, but that emotion is still very real and very justified. 

I just think this whole situation sucks for everyone involved. It would be easier if someone was to blame, but I don't think that's the case. 

Jill and Derick are BOTH victims of a messed up system that CREATES situations like this. And that's really just sad. 

[Hashtag Blessed]

@Palimpsest lol, no it was Czech. I really hope they don't read here. No reason they would, but I genuinely like those two as people and I think they're genuine, kind-hearted, and want to do good in the world. But I don't agree with some of their beliefs, and they know that. They've always been good people and I consider them friends. ETA: They're pretty liberal for evangelical Americans, and I can't stress enough that they are genuinely good people. But I think they would probably cop to the fact that they wanted to be in Czech because they love Prague, and the fact that there's not many Christians there was their reason for making it happen. I can't blame them, I love Prague too. 

The "missionaries" in the sound of France? Not so much. They get nothing but side eye from me. 

[Bad Wolf]

1 hour ago, HideousGreenShirt said:

 Won't somebody please think of the tonsils! 

I had mine removed, but I was underage, and my parents made me.

[singsingsing]

I think it would be hard to find classes for most European languages in the States, actually, unless you're in a big city. That goes for Canada, too. Like if I wanted to learn Finnish, I have no idea where I'd find a Finnish class around here, and I live in a city of 200,000+ people. 

[Hashtag Blessed]

8 minutes ago, Fundie Bunny said:

Maybe slovenian, croatian, czech, finnish, hungarian (personally the worst one i've heard), latvian, dutch, swedish... We are small and have hated each other for centuries, there's plenty to choose from . And now i'm curious, i know there was a big wave of polish inmigration to America, is it easy to learn polish there?

Haha, good guesses. I'd wager it is possible to learn Polish in some of the big cities, like New York, but only at small specialized schools. Not something you'd find in most of the country. Some places with a larger immigrant population will have language schools. But Spanish, French and German are taught in many/most public schools. I guess they're just not stressed at the SOTDRT. 

 

[Lurky]

10 minutes ago, Georgiana said:

But I don't blame Jill for not knowing she couldn't do this. I blame her parents and elders for not sitting her down and EDUCATING HER on what mission work really takes. I blame the org she went with, and anyone that helped make this disaster a reality.  I don't think she INTENDED to deceive Derick at all.

I've said this before, but her parents, if they really cared about her, should have sent her on a short-term mission trip with, for example, one of her sisters or a family friend, to see if she could hack it, and then a longer placement, before getting her married, to see if she could cope with the life.

There are SO many things they could have done, even in their extreme sheltering style - got her proper Spanish lessons, and sent her to stay with a Fundy family who speak Spanish in the home, for some immersion.  If Jana can spend so much time at JTTH as a leader, send Jill to a mission-type place in the USA so she can learn what it's like to do work.

It's like they set her up to fail, but I think it's typical JB hubris.  They're the godliest people in the world, there's nothing a Duggar can't do!  It disgusts me.

I pretty much loathe Derick, but he always made it clear his plans were to live abroad as a missionary.  Of course he should have asked more questions, but the culture is to respect a patriarch, and JB set him up in this.

[Palimpsest]

19 minutes ago, Georgiana said:

But she still did misrepresent herself. And that really sucks for Derick, because as disgusting as he is, all his dreams are in the trash now...and it's hard not to feel for someone who has had that happen.

I don't think Jill knowingly misrepresented herself.  As for it sucking for Derick - his concept of being a missionary is as screwed up as John Shrader's.  I don't feel for him.  I'm glad that he is back in the US.

Derick's concept of being a missionary is solely conversion and church planting.  His form of "Christianity" is to preach hatred for anyone who doesn't believe what he does, anyone who isn't cisgender and straight, anyone who promotes birth control, and anyone who supports choice.  His form of "Christianity" preaches so-called Biblical Patriarchy. 

Derick spent 2 years in Nepal doing "humanitarian" work.  In fact, he lied to get into Nepal (which does not welcome evangelical missionaries with no discernible skills to offer) and spent his time handing out Bibles and preaching.  That is his idea of missionary work.  It is not mine.

Derick and his ilk should be kept out of developing countries.  They preach hatred and do nothing good.  They are parasites.  End of story.

[AlwaysExcited]

31 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

I think it would be hard to find classes for most European languages in the States, actually, unless you're in a big city. That goes for Canada, too. Like if I wanted to learn Finnish, I have no idea where I'd find a Finnish class around here, and I live in a city of 200,000+ people. 

Immigrant communities tend to have weekend lessons (language, history, other culture of origin related activities) for their kids, you could join in.  

[Georgiana]

@Lurky, I absolutely agree. I thought I had a "heart for missions" as a child. When you grow up in a super religious framework and homogeneous cultural setting, it can be easy to confuse "I'm really interested in non-European cultures and want to live abroad" or "I love to travel" with "I have a heart for missions". I did.

But my parents sat me down and really explained what missionary work entailed, and I immediately knew that wasn't what I was into. Jill never got that honesty, and I feel really sad for her. Because I think the REASON no one was truly honest with her is because of how well her "heart for missions" reflected on the Duggar parents. So I think they ignored red flags and encouraged her to believe that God would magically make her able to handle this work. 

2 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

 

Derick and his ilk should be kept out of developing countries.  They preach hatred and do nothing good.  They are parasites.  End of story.

Absolutely agree. It's imperialism with a dash of Jesus. Were I a more faithful person, I might say this is God answering the prayers of those Derick has inflicted himself upon. 

I just feel for him in his marriage. He's never going to be able to live the life he wanted because he married a woman who wasn't who she said she was. And even without mission work, Jilly Muffin can't function more than a stone's throw from the Duggar compound. 

I don't like the man, but he has every right to be upset about how things have played out. Sucks to suck, Derick. Maybe learn your lesson, question things, and stop being a sanctimonious asshat.

[JDuggs]

1 hour ago, Palimpsest said:

 

Trying to converts Catholics to "Christianity" is idiotic.  

You may think that, but it doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. Mike Pence used to be Catholic and now he’s the evangelical Christian prince. I just looked up tons of articles about Catholicism losing its foothold in South and Central America to the evangelicals. I’ve had Catholic friends in the U.S. looking for more religion in their lives and found what they were searching for in evangelical churches. It’s not surprising to me that the fundies want to get as many Catholic converts as they can.

[singsingsing]

28 minutes ago, AlwaysExcited said:

Immigrant communities tend to have weekend lessons (language, history, other culture of origin related activities) for their kids, you could join in.  

That would be an awesome idea if I wanted to learn, say, Arabic, Mandarin, or Hindi. But there aren't very many sizable immigrant communities who speak the more 'obscure' European languages where I live. A few, but if I wanted to learn, I don't know, Estonian, or Yiddish, I'd be out of luck.

[AlwaysExcited]

23 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

That would be an awesome idea if I wanted to learn, say, Arabic, Mandarin, or Hindi. But there aren't very many sizable immigrant communities who speak the more 'obscure' European languages where I live. A few, but if I wanted to learn, I don't know, Estonian, or Yiddish, I'd be out of luck.

Not necessary, you don't really need a large community to have these activities. Even few families could organize something like that. It would probably be very hard to find and join it, though. 

[JDuggs]

36 minutes ago, Georgiana said:

 

I just feel for him in his marriage. He's never going to be able to live the life he wanted because he married a woman who wasn't who she said she was. And even without mission work, Jilly Muffin can't function more than a stone's throw from the Duggar compound. 

I don't like the man, but he has every right to be upset about how things have played out. Sucks to suck, Derick. Maybe learn your lesson, question things, and stop being a sanctimonious asshat.

I don’t think I feel for Derick. He wanted to be a missionary but he also knew he was getting into a marriage where the expectation was tons of children starting with the blessing of a honeymoon baby. He probably wasn’t all that good at being a missionary regardless of Jill’s issues. If he was being super successful at his position in Central America, they might still be there. Derick didn’t become fluent in Spanish: his issue. Jill will probably always have high risk births which they both didn’t want to deal with outside of the U.S.: no blame to either one. Jill felt like her family was in danger in Central America and I don’t know if we ever really got Derick’s opinion on that. Jill’s issue, but possibly Derick’s too. And without living through her situation, I can’t jump to the conclusion that she was overreacting.

Maybe the intention of this Cross Church thing is to get them out in the mission field again. Maybe they need to make a decision to limit their family size so it will be easier for them to accomplish this. I don’t think Jill misrepresented herself by saying she would like to do mission work. Maybe Derick didn’t ask her enough questions about how she would feel living away from her family. I think that Jill missed her family, but her safety concerns were the main cause of her discontent. I just can’t get with blaming Jill at all for the direction of Derick’s life.

[Lurky]

@Georgiana Your parents are great!   I always thought I wanted to go to university and do archeology, so my dad did research and got me a place on an archeological dig, and wow, I hated it!

I completely understand that privilege played into that, but I think a good parent does try to help their children get some experience of things they think they might want to do, if they can.   And while I totally acknowledge my privilege in my example (my dad was dating a university professor who knew people in the right department), the Duggars have so many contacts, and a TV programme backing them, so it would have taken so little effort from them to get Jill a place in a USA mission, or on a 2-month placement somewhere.

ETA And Jill was their favoured daughter!  I can't imagine how she feels about all of this - she can't blame her parents because that's literally against their religion, and she has been taught that this was God's plan for her etc etc, and I bet she's prayed her heart out, and can't understand why God didn't help her.  

I would have loved for that to be a turning point for her, but I bet she feels that helping Derick prey on international students is the least she can do after stopping him working overseas.

ETA 2 No excuse for them not learning Spanish, though.  I get that languages are harder for some people than other, but it's hardly like they were trying to learn Tamil or Hindi, and given they have the internet, so could watch Spanish-language TV, even if for some unlikely reason they were in a part of the USA where there are no Spanish-speaking people within 500km, not even at the university, there are a ton of other options.  Hell, my dad learned basic Spanish via one of those cassette-and-book programmes, in the early 1980s, and in the 2010s there are hundreds of more options.