Fleecing the Sheep

[oscar]

samuraikatz (06/11/11 20:00:31)

 

 

Quote

I just saw this story about the lavish lifestyles of some of the most famous televangelists....I don't think Jesus would do this with "God's" money. Creflo Dollar has his own private jet.. Kenneth Copeland has jets and his own airport right next to his big fancy house..

 

http://www.insideedition.com/videos/979 ... tyles.aspx

 

I don't understand why more people don't question where their money is going when some one on television tells them to "send money" now. Botkin, Dougie and Gothard could take lessons....

 

One totally flabergasted

SamuraiKatz

 

Alecto (06/11/11 21:30:33)

 

 

 

 

Quote

Money changers in the temple, anyone?

MuseMama (06/11/11 21:36:05)

 

 

Quote

 

Ditto that. And I've met people who are totally convinced that these are Holy men!

 

 

hoipolloi (06/11/11 22:14:50)

 

 

Quote

 

Not only that, but why on earth would people donate to something like that bogus Normandy vacation jourtney trip? Are VF followers really that stupid & blind?

 

 

 

doggie (06/11/11 22:28:15)

 

 

Quote

not to knock religion but you have to be a bit gullible to believe something without proof. so the more you believe the more gullible you become. the easier it is for these charismatic people to fleece their followers. it has happened since men followed religious leaders.

 

defrauding (06/11/11 22:41:24)

 

 

Quote

Likewise, I don't understand how people can keep giving money to mega-churches like Elevation Church that don't disclose their budgets -- and, no, a vague pie chart in the annual report doesn't count.

 

Also, I recently stumbled across the Twitter account of Not Steven Furtick. Hilarious. "Prepping to preach tomorrow by chest-bumping myself in the mirror. I'm gonna BRING IT!"

 

tehgoobster (06/11/11 22:56:59)

 

 

Quote

I really, really, REALLY can't stand when people get rich off of Christianity. Joel Osteen and Creflo Dollar are the more obvious suspects, but Doug Phillips and even the Duggars are making fat bank from their Chri$tian mini$tries, too. I remember reading about RC Sproul's grandson, who was caught bragging about his luxury cars and houses online. He caught some flak when people found out that he was living the high life off of ministry funds. Sadly, I don't think this is particularly uncommon.

 

Sola (06/12/11 00:49:36)

 

 

Quote

 

 

 

Yes.

 

Latraviata (06/12/11 03:14:51)

 

Quote

 

 

 

Hear, hear!

 

aeryn406 (06/12/11 05:12:29)

 

 

Quote

So, if these folks are so ready to hand over their cash to another person who tells them super special information that only *they* have access to - why aren't psychic mediums ultra-rich by now? I'm in a small group that practices our spirit-communication skills and we're all way far from getting a private jet or our own airport. Shoot, we Skype rather than drive sometimes 'cause of the gas prices now!

 

Oh wait - because psychic ability is "of the devil". Sorry - I'll be in the prayer closet if anyone needs me.

 

Childless (06/12/11 07:19:24)

 

Quote

No kidding. I would never give money to any preacher. Who knows what they do with it. I'd rather give to non-profits that actually help people and have to report where the money goes. I give to those less fortunate than myself. I don't give to some yahoo so he can have a mansion and a private jet.

 

Hane.engrishmessageb...(06/12/11 07:23:13)

 

 

Quote

Back in the '90s, one of these televangelist types explained away his lavish lifestyle and luxury car by saying, "Jesus wouldn't want one of his church leaders driving around in some little Honda." To which my teenaged daughter replied, "No--JESUS rode a DONKEY!"

 

tehgoobster (06/12/11 07:30:55)

 

 

 

Quote

I remember a story in the Bible where Satan tempted Jesus with all the kingdoms in the world. Jesus refused, but I can't help but think that some of these greedy preachers would've taken him up on his offer.

 

SnarkyJan (06/12/11 07:32:06)

 

 

Quote

 

 

AND held out for more favorable terms.

 

 

 

Childless (06/12/11 08:37:08)

 

 

Quote

Think of all the people that could be helped with the money these idiots use on private jets/mansions/luxury cars/etc. They could be doing so much good in this world. Instead, they choose to be greedy. Why anyone would attend one of these mega-churches is beyond me. Not only are they led by greedy preachers, they're also incredibly impersonal.

 

MamaJunebug.freekatie (06/12/11 09:06:54)

 

 

Quote

Joyce Meyer comes to mind. For a while,she and I think all 4 of her children lived on 5 or so acres in a part of Saint Louis that was a pleasant mix of crackerboxes from post-WW2, McManses and 1960s/70s-vintage developments with roomy but unpretentious homes on third-of-an-acre lots.

 

IOW, the Meyer compound really stood out. The local daily tried some exposes but AFAIK Joyce still rakes it in.

 

Any charlatan, the reason for my post is that Joyce's boastful arrogance cost her at least one fan, but over aesthetics, not doctrine nor transparency: One of Joyce's daughters had a huge Victorian built in plain sight of the road.

 

Joyce made a big deal of how the daughter was going to have the house exterior painted white w black trim. Joyce's followers cheered exuberantly when Joyce reported that the daughter had stuck to her incredibly dumb (JMHO) color scheme.

 

I never was a fan of Joyce but a pal was -- until she saw the house as she drove by. That was it, for her: any body who would permit & endorse such an esthetic crime could not be worthy of her support!!

 

More recently,and immeasurably tragic, is the criminal conviction of Joyce's former personal bodyguard/head of security who murdered his wife and young sons. I wonder if any of Joyce's followers have stopped to consider that this "godly" woman, so in tune with the Almighty, could lack the tiniest shred of perception of what this guy, she so trusted, was planning and did.

 

I would hope so but i don't hold out hope.

 

[fundifugee]

I once worked for Samaritan's Purse, which is the "charitable" machine of the whole Billy Graham ministry; supposedly a super-respectable fundi-lite(maybe?). However, it was a not-for-profit, the Head B*tch in Charge, Franklin Graham, Billy's son, had a collection of Harley Davidsons, a 100 acre property in the mountains, and a private jet. Even the sainted Billy would fly around in a helicopter, unwilling to sit in traffic with the unwashed masses. When Franklin and the Big Donors would come visit us at our project in a very poor African nation, despite our very adequate digs with the luxury of plumbing, hot water and electricity, those precious God-Anointed Leaders would not spend a night in our house, nor in the most luxurious hotel in the country, because the digs were absolutely not up to their lofty standards.

Working for them to "help" people who were literally dying from lack of clean water and basic health services was the most disillusioning experience of my life, and one of the last few nails in the coffin that helped me walk out of church, fundi-land, and work to divest myself of the toxic fundi beliefs under which I'd been squashed ... er... raised.

[SamuraiKatz]

I once worked for Samaritan's Purse, which is the "charitable" machine of the whole Billy Graham ministry; supposedly a super-respectable fundi-lite(maybe?). However, it was a not-for-profit, the Head B*tch in Charge, Franklin Graham, Billy's son, had a collection of Harley Davidsons, a 100 acre property in the mountains, and a private jet. Even the sainted Billy would fly around in a helicopter, unwilling to sit in traffic with the unwashed masses. When Franklin and the Big Donors would come visit us at our project in a very poor African nation, despite our very adequate digs with the luxury of plumbing, hot water and electricity, those precious God-Anointed Leaders would not spend a night in our house, nor in the most luxurious hotel in the country, because the digs were absolutely not up to their lofty standards.

Working for them to "help" people who were literally dying from lack of clean water and basic health services was the most disillusioning experience of my life, and one of the last few nails in the coffin that helped me walk out of church, fundi-land, and work to divest myself of the toxic fundi beliefs under which I'd been squashed ... er... raised.

I've become so distrustful of these big organizations....Our family has started giving locally to charitable projects we can research and keep check on ourselves. I want to help hurting people not fund some fundie's lavish lifestyle.

Thanks for moving this thread Oscar. I can't quite figure out how to do it.

SamuraiKatz

[hoipolloi]

fundifugee - Wow. I'd always read that Samaritan's Purse was actually a bona fide charity & did well with its money. I guess the Grahams & company do even better.

Not that I've ever thought much of the Grahams, particularly Mr. Billy but they really bottomed out IMO when Franklin bullied his dad into having Ruth buried at the Billy Graham Memorial Theme Park Fantasy Land LIbrary after her death, even though the elder Grahams had always talked about wanting to be buried near their house in the mountains ((http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01338.html).

[MamaJunebug]

fundifugee - Wow. I'd always read that Samaritan's Purse was actually a bona fide charity & did well with its money. I guess the Grahams & company do even better.

Not that I've ever thought much of the Grahams, particularly Mr. Billy but they really bottomed out IMO when Franklin bullied his dad into having Ruth buried at the Billy Graham Memorial Theme Park Fantasy Land LIbrary after her death, even though the elder Grahams had always talked about wanting to be buried near their house in the mountains ((http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01338.html).

Pschew, that reeked!

Long time ago, BigDaddyJunebug said he personally couldn't support Salvation Army upon finding out that the organization's "colonels" lived in the toniest suburb in the area (actually at the time, one of the best ($$) in the nation).

I stopped supporting the Girl Scouts when I found out a friend who worked for them had a car provided by the GSA through cookie bucks.

I made a donation to tsunami victims through the Lutheran Church Mo Synod world relief and also asked for the percentages of income spent on administrative costs. The guy who responded gave me a lot of words but said he couldn't give me a percentage.

I'm with you - for my Joplin tornado support, I'm writing a check to the Lutheran church in Joplin that's boots-on-ground in the city 100% of the time.

If I can't give locally .... I'm not sure what I'll do. But I sure as heck don't intend to give to organizations that can't give me a simple answer to, "how much of my donated dollar actually will serve the hurting, as opposed to supporting the administrators?"

[GenerationCedarchip]

Pschew, that reeked!

Long time ago, BigDaddyJunebug said he personally couldn't support Salvation Army upon finding out that the organization's "colonels" lived in the toniest suburb in the area (actually at the time, one of the best ($$) in the nation).

I stopped supporting the Girl Scouts when I found out a friend who worked for them had a car provided by the GSA through cookie bucks.

I made a donation to tsunami victims through the Lutheran Church Mo Synod world relief and also asked for the percentages of income spent on administrative costs. The guy who responded gave me a lot of words but said he couldn't give me a percentage.

I'm with you - for my Joplin tornado support, I'm writing a check to the Lutheran church in Joplin that's boots-on-ground in the city 100% of the time.

If I can't give locally .... I'm not sure what I'll do. But I sure as heck don't intend to give to organizations that can't give me a simple answer to, "how much of my donated dollar actually will serve the hurting, as opposed to supporting the administrators?"

If you're wondering "How much of my money goes to the charitable work you're supposedly doing?", check here:

http://www.charitynavigator.org

They will also tell you how much the head people at the organization get paid. If you're interested in a 501©(3) that's not on there, you can nominate it to get researched.

[GenerationCedarchip]

And since I got curious, I started playing on Charity Navigator. Here are some things I found:

Samaritan's Purse - 3 star rating (out of 4) - 88.5% of what they raise goes to actual charity work, but Franklin Graham sees fit to pay himself $473,440 a year

Persecution Project (Dougie's slightly less evil brother) - 4 star rating; 95.5% of their funds go to their actual work; Brad Phillips is paid $110,000 per year (that's actually a pretty average salary for the head of a nonprofit in the DC area, believe it or not)

Vision Forum - not rated - darn!

Western Conservatory....(Botkin outfit) - also not rated - are we really surprised?

[treemom]

I don't give money to Samaritan's purse, but when my son was in a religious preschool we always did the shoe boxes at the Christmas time. That I don't mind so much.

I actually don't mind giving to some religious organizations but they have to be pretty non discriminatory and not try to proselytize. (previous example excluded)

[mirele]

My employer runs a huge Get Everyone To Contribute thing in September. Funds are steered towards United Way or schools.

I used to have no problem giving. However, I've reconsidered in recent years (particularly after the United Way compensation scandals) and instead of giving to United Way or local schools, I'm sending the money I would have given to an elderly relative who is living on much less than $1000 in Los Angeles. And it's nowhere near enough, but I don't want to mess with her eligibility for certain services. (I'd have her move in with me, but it would just kill her to leave LA and we're MEAN to the poor in Arizona.) I also make a point of giving to people who just need the money now. Sure, I've probably gotten ripped off, but you know, it doesn't matter. It's just money. I could sit on all my money (not that I have loads myself) in a pile, but someday I'm going to be dead and a pile of money isn't going to do me a whole lot of good then. I don't know if there's an afterlife, but if I can make a few people more comfortable for a bit or provide a decent meal for someone, that makes me happy now.

ETA: I can't donate money to Samaritan's Purse or the Salvation Army, because of their discriminatory policies towards those of us who don't track with heteronormality.

[treemom]

My employer runs a huge Get Everyone To Contribute thing in September. Funds are steered towards United Way or schools.

I used to have no problem giving. However, I've reconsidered in recent years (particularly after the United Way compensation scandals) and instead of giving to United Way or local schools, I'm sending the money I would have given to an elderly relative who is living on much less than $1000 in Los Angeles. And it's nowhere near enough, but I don't want to mess with her eligibility for certain services. (I'd have her move in with me, but it would just kill her to leave LA and we're MEAN to the poor in Arizona.) I also make a point of giving to people who just need the money now. Sure, I've probably gotten ripped off, but you know, it doesn't matter. It's just money. I could sit on all my money (not that I have loads myself) in a pile, but someday I'm going to be dead and a pile of money isn't going to do me a whole lot of good then. I don't know if there's an afterlife, but if I can make a few people more comfortable for a bit or provide a decent meal for someone, that makes me happy now.

That is awesome!

[GolightlyGrrl]

I saw that episode of Inside Edition with Kennet Copeland. I believe he said he needed a fleet of private planes to do "the Lord's work." I nearly horked. Nuns manage to do the Lord's work with a used Toyota.

[higgledypiggledy]

When my husband was working for a large corporation in our area, they had giving days. Essentially management would let United Way come in and have these pep rallies. Everyone would feel pressure to sign up on the spot. The bosses were watching and manning the sign up tables with the United Way folks. My husband never donated to United Way because he knew that the majority of the funds they recieve go to support the cost of overhead and donation pep rallies/prizes instead of going to the people who really needed the funds. While he was there, he felt that his refusal to "donate" to United Way hurt his image with his boss. His preferred method of giving was actually going into shelters, asking them what they needed and trying to get it for them or donate his labor on projects. He also tutored low income at risk kids on his lunch hours. His boss never saw any of that work and would chide him about not having the company spirit of giving. Drove hub insane. Boy was he glad to leave that corporation--for this among MANY other ethics reasons.

[Burris]

If you're wondering "How much of my money goes to the charitable work you're supposedly doing?", check here:

http://www.charitynavigator.org

They will also tell you how much the head people at the organization get paid. If you're interested in a 501©(3) that's not on there, you can nominate it to get researched.

I know: It can be really discouraging.

It’s worth noting that many organizations have good checks and balances, however, and that’s why services such as CharityNavigator are so important.

[Soldier of the One]

OK, going back to the OP: I've been thinking a lot about VF (and other fundie royalty) financial policy.

I have two questions/thoughts:

1) How can people 'buy' (pun intended) into it? Don't they want their leaders to be accountable and transparent?

2) How can leaders themselves justify such behavior? No religious tradition encourages this type of self-aggrandizement?

I wonder what mechanisms of criticism (if any) exist in the fundie world. Spending some $$$ on good promotional materials for outreach is one thing. Spending it on European dress-up parties is another.

[Buzzard]

Reviving a raptured thread since Samaritan's purse is now in all out media blitz mode seeking money for Sandy. I guess airtime got cheap post election.

samaritanspurse.org/index.php/articles/franklin_graham_support_for_sandy_victims/

The commercials they are airing say that there are elderly people who didnt have insurance, so they are going to rebuild their houses. I'd like to call bullshit but there doesnt seem to be enough media coverage on that for me to do so... yet...

samaritanspurse.org/index.php/articles/hurricane_sandy/

This link has a few videos, one where theyre flying in a helicopter, another with Greta Van Susterin saying they help etc. I have to ask, WTF does a charity need a helicopter for? Considering people are rationing fuel do they really need to go survey damage for themselves?

Thanks, but I think I'll stick to the red cross.

[docmom]

When my husband was working for a large corporation in our area, they had giving days. Essentially management would let United Way come in and have these pep rallies. Everyone would feel pressure to sign up on the spot. The bosses were watching and manning the sign up tables with the United Way folks. My husband never donated to United Way because he knew that the majority of the funds they recieve go to support the cost of overhead and donation pep rallies/prizes instead of going to the people who really needed the funds. While he was there, he felt that his refusal to "donate" to United Way hurt his image with his boss. His preferred method of giving was actually going into shelters, asking them what they needed and trying to get it for them or donate his labor on projects. He also tutored low income at risk kids on his lunch hours. His boss never saw any of that work and would chide him about not having the company spirit of giving. Drove hub insane. Boy was he glad to leave that corporation--for this among MANY other ethics reasons.

We have the same pressure at our workplace. However, you can direct your donation to the United Way to charities of your choice. That way you count towards the grand total and avoid the nasty looks, but make sure your money goes where you want it to go.

[Coconut Flan]

After three Red Cross scandals in our county, it's gotten a lot harder to find large charities that I trust.

[Witsec7]

We have the same pressure at our workplace. However, you can direct your donation to the United Way to charities of your choice. That way you count towards the grand total and avoid the nasty looks, but make sure your money goes where you want it to go.

We have a giving program for state employees here in Boregonia. Work is put on hold so that a variety of 'recognized' charities can do dog and pony shows and get their box checked as a payroll deduction. I find the whole process odious and invasive. It's no one's business who I choose for my charity and as an adult I can make those choices without the influence of my employer and outside of my workplace.

[anniebgood]

A very good friend of mine works for the PHX chapter of the ARC and has been deployed to NY to work with local groups in the rescue efforts. She's working 16 hour days and says that she has never seen such destruction in her life. Up to now she's mainly been to forest fire aftermaths, now this. She works in PR as well as rescue. She's one to speak her mind and if she saw something that wasn't right, she wouldn't keep shut.

Back to the original topic, fleecing the sheep, I always wondered how Jan and Paul Crouch could defend the use of separate mansions in Laguna Hills, race horses and of course not to be outdone by Tammy Faye, air conditioned dog houses for their toy pooches. She is a drunk.

[sparkles]

Fundies seem perfectly accepting of the Lifestyles of the Righteous and Religious. After all, they're out there on the front lines doing battle against Satan and secularism, therefore they NEED the mansions and the jets and the air-conditioned dog houses. Payment for doing the lord's work. Time and time again, when the abuses and outrages have been brought to light, even the most poverty-stricken believers are willing to forgive and forget.

[Rosa]

I actually don't mind if a charity spends money on administration - the high executive salaries are a shame, but they are just an echo of the ridiculous executive salaries (into the tens of millions for, say, insurance companies) in the private sector, and that's who they compete against for hiring.

Charities need administrators - office workers, accountants, auditors, background-checkers, volunteer coordinators, people to arrange visas and do press work and respond with facts that legislators ask for.

What I care about is, do I actually support the work they do and do they treat their clients and workers well? There's a charity I support - Plant with Purpose - even though they are religious, because 1) I support their main mission (agroforestry) 2) they hire locals to be administrators and program managers instead of importing Americans and 3) they work in Haiti and were before the big earthquake. I chose them over a secular charity with a similar program mostly because of #2 - good jobs for locals are just as or more important than "charitable" work, even if it makes them look worse on Charity Navigator.

But, I don't support any charity whose main goal is evangelism. I don't know how you'd even measure that for effectiveness.

[hoipolloi]

While I support some of the non-profits affiliated with United Way I haven't donated a dime to or through United Way itself since they booted Planned Parenthood off their list of receiving charities. I just send money directly to the charities of my choice.

ETA: Why am I not surprised that Samaritan's Purse "needs" a helicopter?

[sparkles]

While I support some of the non-profits affiliated with United Way I haven't donated a dime to or through United Way itself since they booted Planned Parenthood off their list of receiving charities. I just send money directly to the charities of my choice.

Same here. I don't need to donate through a middleman.

One of my favorite charities is donorschoose.org. From their website:

DonorsChoose.org is an online charity that makes it easy for anyone to help students in need. Public school teachers from every corner of America post classroom project requests on our site, and you can give any amount to the project that most inspires you.

When a project reaches its funding goal, we ship the materials to the school. You'll get photos of the project taking place, a letter from the teacher, and insight into how every dollar was spent.

These are important projects that would probably never see the light of day if they had to depend on tax dollars. Most are very reasonable and many are matched. You know you're making a difference in a very personal way.

[Irishy]

My boys' school does the samatitan's purse shoebox thing every year. I don't like the whiff of it but they say oh the boys love to make the shoe box and they love the visual of the piles of gift wrapped boxes. I tried to steer them toward a local charity this year. We are going 50/50 samatitan's purse/st Vincent de Paul.

[Guest Anonymous]

Not all United Ways are the same. Some branches are very good, and some are pretty bad. Just because UW is bad in one place and someone talks about how bad UW is doesn't mean your own local one will be anything less than amazing. Research each one individually.

I live donorsechoose