ESP Character Training: Training Children to Please

[Witsec1]

One of Visionary Womanhood's (yes, I'm obsessed, I know) co-bloggers is Kim Doebler, author of a book called "ESP Character Training: Explain, Show, Practice". It has been advertised in No Greater Joy magazine.

She has a post called "Training to Children to Please" - here is the link: visionarywomanhood.com/training-children-to-please/

visionarywomanhood.com/training-children-to-please/

Have you ever heard someone say, “My children love to please me.â€

The first time I heard someone say that I was confused. What did that look like? Not growing up in a Christian home, I could not imagine this concept; yet, a few months ago I was trying to make this very point to my children:

I really don't understand this. All children, barring neurological disabilities, are born with a strong need for acceptance and approval. We are social beings. Sometimes they don't understand what we want. They may get frustrated when our expectations exceed what they are capable of developmentally. They have poor self-control and can't always follow through on good intentions. But, by and large, they not only want a parent's approval, they need it and crave it. I don't understand why young children need to be "trained" to please their parents. I always understood my task to be that of training my child to be capable of making good choices on her own, from intrinsic motivation. If my teenager constantly needed my input and approval for every choice, I would feel like I had failed.

We need to obey because it is right, not just because it feels good.

OK, if they are pleasing you, which is a good feeling for them, and if you punish them for disobedience, then they are obeying you because it feels good. How are you teaching them to do what is right because it is the right thing to do?

As part of my point I asked, “Would you obey me just because I wanted you to?â€

To my surprise they said, “Yes.â€

I adjusted my question, “Would you have always obeyed me just because I wanted you to?â€

Very quickly they answered, “No.â€

What had caused the change?

Believe it or not, it was character training! The years of correcting and guiding had done their work and our children wanted to please us.

Well, it worked. You trained your kids to do and say whatever you want.

Here is a post from her blog explaining how the ESP training works:

I have a new friend that has told me she can see that our testimony in character training has bore fruit. She enjoys our children and has asked a lot of questions, yet, she missed the major training years of our life, so often wonders how that looked.

Last week she observed a close friend of ours correcting her two year old. Afterwards, she commented to me how impressed she was with the mom’s perseverance. My new friend said, “Knowing this woman in mentored by you it was great to see what training looked like in the younger years.â€

I am going to describe to you what this friend saw, because I really think this is an area many of us don’t understand. The two year old fussed at her mom. “I want to go play on the swings.†Mom bent down to her level and said, “No fuss. It is time to listen to the leader.†The cutie pulled away and made a fussy noise. Mom gave the child a small pinch on the leg and said, “No fuss. Stand nice.†Again the child squirmed and fussed. Mom was calm and constant, “No fuss†with a slightly firmer pinch. This continued for several exchanges until the two year old finally answered, “Yes, mom†and stood nicely next to her mom. Shortly after, the leader was done giving directions and the small children were free to play at the park.

This is the link to the ESP Training blog: espcharactertraining.weebly.com/1/previous/2.html

I never found it necessary to pinch, slap, or hit my child to communicate firmness and resolve. If you are clear about expectations, and do not give in to whining and fussing, the child will realize that whining and fussing aren't going to work. Also, you can be empathetic to the child's struggle to abide by the boundaries you set, and still be firm about the boundaries. Why do you have to painfully pinch a small child to exert your authority? I don't get it.

ETA linky

[quiningseven]

Reminds me of dog training- Caesar Milan would approve :P

[Austin]

If I heard someone say, "My children love to please me", I would think that parent was seriously warped.

[Hane]

Reminds me of dog training- Caesar Milan would approve :P

But Caesar doesn't pinch or hit his dogs. Did anyone else see the "South Park" episode in which Cartman's mother hired Caesar to help her learn how to train her out-of-control kid? Caesar's methods worked when those of all the "supernanny" types didn't.

Which one of us pointed out that kids of a certain age (7-9, IIRC) tend to act up in certain ways, whether their parents are dictatorial or lenient, but seem to get over those undesirable behaviors in time regardless of the way their parents treat them?

I'm all about helping kids learn how to behave well and treat others appropriately because it's the right thing to do. The best compliment my daughter ever gave me was saying, "My mother never said much about how a person should behave--she just showed me by example."

If I heard someone say, "My children love to please me", I would think that parent was seriously warped.

Ditto. And I'd also think that parent was trying to one-up other parents in the old "MY kids are better-behaved than YOUR kids" game.

[emmiedahl]

Children are born with this deep innate need for approval and love from their parents. If you feed that need with affection and positive interaction, they never really lose it. But pinching them? That just lets them know that you will hurt them if they don't obey.

Some kids are better behaved than others. Most of it is just inborn personality. A difficult child is likely to remain difficult regardless of what you do. My oldest daughter has always had strong ideas about things and she is not afraid to express them. I could beat her until she was broken and it would not change her mind. Sometimes I can talk to her and she will be more cooperative once she feels 'heard' and understands my pov. Sometimes. My other kids are easy-peasy.

Spanking once came up in a homeschooling group. I said I don't spank and one of the moms said, "Well, your kids are so well-behaved that you don't really have to." My experience with groups of children has been that you can tell the spanked/pinched/physically disciplined kids because they are more aggressive and also because they stop behaving well as soon as the adults aren't watching.

[Kitty]

Children are born with this deep innate need for approval and love from their parents. If you feed that need with affection and positive interaction, they never really lose it. But pinching them? That just lets them know that you will hurt them if they don't obey.

Some kids are better behaved than others. Most of it is just inborn personality. A difficult child is likely to remain difficult regardless of what you do. My oldest daughter has always had strong ideas about things and she is not afraid to express them. I could beat her until she was broken and it would not change her mind. Sometimes I can talk to her and she will be more cooperative once she feels 'heard' and understands my pov. Sometimes. My other kids are easy-peasy.

Spanking once came up in a homeschooling group. I said I don't spank and one of the moms said, "Well, your kids are so well-behaved that you don't really have to." My experience with groups of children has been that you can tell the spanked/pinched/physically disciplined kids because they are more aggressive and also because they stop behaving well as soon as the adults aren't watching.

I'm barely out of my teens myself (hell, I'm technically still in my teens until January) so it wasn't too long ago that I was a kid myself. I also grew up in the South, where a popular punishment for just about everything is yelling and smacking. Those kids were the ones who barely graduated in high school, got into more fights, and had less than optimal relationships with their parents. I was spanked too, but not for whining or backtalk or whatever else.

[quiningseven]

But Caesar doesn't pinch or hit his dogs. Did anyone else see the "South Park" episode in which Cartman's mother hired Caesar to help her learn how to train her out-of-control kid? Caesar's methods worked when those of all the "supernanny" types

He pinches their necks in order to simulate the "checking" bites that dogs give each other as shows of dominance, along with that tsssst sound. Also, I loved that south park episode!

The acronym that she uses, I like- the practice she thinks it entails... Not so much.

[Cerysbell]

You see, the idea of training my chidren to please immediately made me think of this article,

http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2011/sep ... NTCMP=SRCH and where wanting to please adults got this man as an 8yo. Unquestioning obedience is not my goal.

[Alcyone]

I am going to describe to you what this friend saw, because I really think this is an area many of us don’t understand. The two year old fussed at her mom. “I want to go play on the swings.†Mom bent down to her level and said, “No fuss. It is time to listen to the leader.†The cutie pulled away and made a fussy noise. Mom gave the child a small pinch on the leg and said, “No fuss. Stand nice.†Again the child squirmed and fussed. Mom was calm and constant, “No fuss†with a slightly firmer pinch. This continued for several exchanges until the two year old finally answered, “Yes, mom†and stood nicely next to her mom. Shortly after, the leader was done giving directions and the small children were free to play at the park.

This is so upsetting. The mother uses violence and pain to enforce a seemingly arbitrary "rule" that is developmentally inappropriate to begin with. "Listening to the leader" (whatever that means) is not what two year olds do. Playing on swings is. Even if the child can't go on the swings right away, the mother could have suggested an alternate time to use the swings or given her another activity that was more fitting for her age.

[Terrie]

I'm disappointed. I thought it would about training psychic kids.

[Guest Anonymous]

I'm disappointed. I thought it would about training psychic kids.

That's the last thing fundies would want their kids to know. If they could anticipate their parents' moves, they could time their escape for when the parent is sleeping or in the shower..

[Hane]

He pinches their necks in order to simulate the "checking" bites that dogs give each other as shows of dominance, along with that tsssst sound.

Oh! I never happened to see the episodes in which he did this. Still, I don't think he's being abusive--he's trying hard to understand the way dogs interact with each other, from what I've seen.

[SamuraiKatz]

Kim Doebler, author of a book called "ESP Character Training

I read just the above part and thought...WHAT! Fundies are using extra sensory perception to "train" their children? How can they make ESP biblical?

Then I read the rest of the article and decided this woman is completely and utterly evil. I raised four kids and NEVER had to pinch my toddlers to make them mind. If they were whiny, we went home....whiny children are usually tired or hungry children...you can't abuse those things out of a two year old.

I'm so glad I ditched fundieism and now in the commuter/carpool lane on the highway to hell.

[thoughtful]

Oh! I never happened to see the episodes in which he did this. Still, I don't think he's being abusive--he's trying hard to understand the way dogs interact with each other, from what I've seen.

Nope. Mostly, he is the dog-training version of the stupid "child-training" proponents we deplore. He uses pinches, noises, force, dragging, kicking, hanging and a (usually well-hidden) shock collar.

And, as on many reality shows, he creates drama where there would be none. In his case, this means goading dogs into aggressive displays, setting them up for failure so he can attempt to punish (sound familiar?), making an adversarial relationship out of one that could easily be cooperative (again, sound familiar?).

Check these links:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFCGtatpCwI

http://beyondcesarmillan.weebly.com/

Good dog training has long-since gone beyond his methods, as good child-raising ideas have left Pearl's crap behind.

Both Pearl and Millan make sure that unpleasant actions are preceded, described and masked by a lot of talk that sounds cheerful, authoritative, and/or loving.

Both do a lot of fear mongering -- "if you don't do this, your child will go to Hell/your dog will be in the Red Zone (a meaningless term)" or "if you don't do this, you child/dog will be a spoiled brat and will not obey."

Both set up the idea that the parent/owner must have authority just for the sake of having authority, and that normal, innocent things that children and dogs do are bids for dominance.

Both see many things that are appeasement and begging for mercy as further proof of willfulness and disobedience.

As ever, I apologize to anyone who is generally offended by any comparison of raising kids to training animals. But, as ever, my point is that, if even good animal trainers know that such methods are bad, why do these shmucks use them on children?

A child, besides being much more precious (even to an animal-lover like me! :D ), will mature to the point where language and reason will work. And still the Pearl-esque nuts use physical pain and emotional humiliation.

[keeperrox]

How is this not setting these kids up for abuse? If their parents aren't abusing them (which they probably are), it's ingrained in them to "please" almost anyone would be able to take advantage of them (physically, sexually, mentally, emotionally).

[thoughtful]

How is this not setting these kids up for abuse? If their parents aren't abusing them (which they probably are), if it's ingrained in them to "please" almost anyone would be able to take advantage of them (physically, sexually, mentally, emotionally).

We see the harm in a child being raised to be completely submissive and programmed to obey -- they don't. They seem to see simple obedience as more important than anything else, and a sign of godliness.

I think there is a spectrum of attitudes among them, that ranges from "I adore this individual child and really believe I am saving him from burning in Hell" to "we are having many children to be warriors for God, and simply need them all to be on our side of the fight" to "I enjoy my children as representations of what a successfully godly person I am" to "I'm having kids because I don't know there's any option, and am actually not ready for/don't understand/dislike children."

And I'm sure I'm forgetting a few attitudes I've seen openly stated or readable between the lines.

But really cherishing an individual, as an individual, seems rather rare in that crowd.

Heck, I don't even have children, and the unique qualities of my students never cease to intrigue me. They are human beings, not cogs in the machine of my ego, or their parents'.

[MamaJunebug]

Fair warning: brief ahead

thoughtful, I opened the youtube video all ready to scoff. Indeed, however, Cesar "The Foot" Millan seems more inerested in getting the shot expediently than in letting the dog misbehave on the dog's own time.

Troubling.

I will say about Cesar and his pinch: My older dogs will do that exact nip at the mouth of pups who have exceeded the old guys' patience. But they nip at the mouth, not the neck. When I am training, I use Cesar's "hsst!" and a tap on the side of the mouth. I hardly ever pinch, I wouldn't be fast enough!!!

So...thank y'all for indulging me. As you werre! And again, sorry for the brief

[Swamptribe]

The problem with 'training a child to please' is that it's setting up the child to be abused. They are programmed to do pretty much for adults as long as it pleases the adult, even if it is against the childs will or comfort level. They are taught not to say no. That ability is being basically quilted right out of them.

The 'eager to please' bit is what child predators exploit. Predators of their fellow adults exploit the same exact thing. Children become programmed to do what they feel will appease the authority figure.

ps, having trouble with my keyboard, so sorry for tyos

[Cannelle]

How is this not setting these kids up for abuse? If their parents aren't abusing them (which they probably are), if it's ingrained in them to "please" almost anyone would be able to take advantage of them (physically, sexually, mentally, emotionally).

That was my first thought. And pinching your two year old is SERIOUSLY fucking warped. SERIOUSLY. What the hell ever happened to redirection? I never once had to hit, pinch, smack, etc. my two year old. Granted, he was a pretty easy-going kid, but he had his moments, and I still managed to turn him into a well-behaved nine year old without fucking PINCHING him. The thought of that makes me want to vomit. These people are so disgusting.