Joy and Austin: Switzerland to the Backwoods of Arkansas

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

5 minutes ago, Exposedknees said:

I agree wholeheartedly with the statement.  BUT it doesn't seem to change the Duggar world view. 

Well it doesn't change Boob and DQ and those closely around them when they are there. Boob is dead set in how he is going to live, and so are his children come hell or high water, he will do everything to see to that. Austin's father as well, however, these two are alone, and totally unsupervised, for the 1st time EVER, in a foreign country (s) this will be eye opening for them, how they choose to grow in that eye opening remains to be seen, but they are being exposed to things they most likely had no idea ever existed. 

[onekidanddone]

21 hours ago, Nikedagain? said:

Easy Peasy!  This is a great opportunity. 4 for 1? A BARGAIN

Up it to 5 for 1 by tossing in Kellyanne ConTwit, and it is an offer they can't refuse.

[Fluffy14]

29 minutes ago, backyard sylph said:

ten years from nuns with guitars to people praying for my mother's resurrection at her funeral.

Oh , say no more.  We left before that crazy stuff really started rearing its ugly head.  We left just as the Airport Vineyard started doing the ugly crazeeee shit.  I never understood how my friends could not see it was not normal to be stepping over contorted bodies, or growling at you while you sat there.  We still affiliated with many people as things progressed, but did not attend church. The more we saw and heard the farther we ran. I just am thankful we lived on the west coast and there was some resistance to it and we were not in the thick of it. Sadly it has progressed further and we still see the same folks filling their heads up with new stuff.

[backyard sylph]

2 minutes ago, Fluffy14 said:

Oh , say no more.  We left before that crazy stuff really started rearing its ugly head.  We left just as the Airport Vineyard started doing the ugly crazeeee shit.  I never understood how my friends could not see it was not normal to be stepping over contorted bodies, or growling at you while you sat there.  We still affiliated with many people as things progressed, but did not attend church. The more we saw and heard the farther we ran. I just am thankful we lived on the west coast and there was some resistance to it and we were not in the thick of it. Sadly it has progressed further and we still see the same folks filling their heads up with new stuff.

You get it.

People who knew my mom thought she was anointed to be like an apostle or whatever. And I'm pretty sure they thought I got in her way, being "sinful," also possibly the reason she died of breast cancer. No, I have too much on my mind today to add those memories to the list. But right, yes. No.

[Fluffy14]

21 minutes ago, backyard sylph said:

People who knew my mom thought she was anointed to be like an apostle or whatever.

I won't dredge up anymore , but I want you to know,  I get it , I get it, I get it. I could add a second book to your memoir concerning prophets, and apostles.  What an incredibly damaging time. I'm so sorry. For you , for me and others.

[Jug Band Baby]

On 6/17/2017 at 5:34 AM, veron1que said:

They are surrounded by lots of longterm, successful marriages who are examples to them.

How do you define a successful marriage?  Is it a marriage where the couple stays together and that's it? Or is it a marriage where both people are genuinely happy and respect each other?  Fundy marriages aren't really about respecting the wife, and the wife's happiness doesn't matter.  Some break that mold (I thin JinJeremy is a example so far), but a lot don't, and the wives are trained from birth to stare adoringly at the men.  That's a facade, not success.

On 6/17/2017 at 8:36 AM, Four is Enough said:

My father had just turned 20; my mother was still 19 when they married.. and were married 63 years.. so young marriages can work out..

Some people are lucky enough to grow in the same directions.  But also, decades ago, the idea of being a teenager was new.  Childhoods were shorter too.  Less education was needed to get by, and so it wasn't unusual for kids to drop out after 8th grade and be expected to function as adults.  They knew more about the world at a younger age because hiding it was detrimental.  The Duggars and other fundies can't even try to say they're just doing it the old-fashioned was since back then, kids weren't shielded from the realities of life, and even in larger families, all the kids were expected to behave instead of being left to their own devices like the howlers or the lost kids.  Adults decades ago were expected to know who they were by a very young age, not kept ignorant of the world, and uneducated (way back when, they had standard educations, even if it's less than we have now).  

[Fluffy14]

3 minutes ago, Jug Band Baby said:

That's a facade, not success.

Yes. My neighbors parents are together still. They are in their 70's. She says they are together because they don't communicate!! Lol. 

I am positive there are some pretty shaky unhappy marriages in churches, that nobody even suspects are that way. My daughters friends parents are happily married after 30 + years.......because they have never fought.  The daughter asked me if that was normal. I said no way. Somebody is always giving in and it is probably your mother. She said I was the first person to tell her that. How SAD is that?

[Jug Band Baby]

On 6/17/2017 at 0:13 PM, Rachel333 said:

This conversation comes up a lot. I don't think anyone said that young marriage never works, and I'm sure we all have anecdotes about couples who married young and had a successful marriage, but it is true statistically that people who marry young are more likely to get divorced. Of course, the Duggar kids will be expected to stay married no matter what.

And that "no matter what" is added to the pile of "successful marriages that stay together."  A couple high school friends of mine got married and have been together over 20 years, and by outward appearances, are happy, and count as successful.  Behind closed doors, he's what she calls a "tyrant" and she and the kids are scared, but it's what they know.  Divorce isn't an option because of religion.  but they're an example of a successful, young marriage.  Should success really be defined as "staying together even when it's an unhappy marriage with abuses going on"?

On 6/20/2017 at 9:59 PM, missegeno said:

Maybe I'm the only one here who has been to weddings where the bride and groom leave during the reception, everyone stays to send them off and then leave themselves (and I've never been to a fundie wedding). If you want to leave earlier, leaving after the cake cutting seems to be generally appropriate either way.

That's been the usual way of it for weddings I've been to also.  A lot of people don't want to leave before the couple does, and why should the couple have to stay and be the very last people to go?  They've had the longest day and the least sleep the night before.  So at almost all the weddings I've been to, a little while after cake cutting and garter/bouquet if that's done, the couple leaves, and guest know they can leave then too, or stay if they want.

On 6/21/2017 at 3:46 AM, backyard sylph said:

My English teachers were my favorites. I particularly loved my 7th grade Language Arts teacher, Mrs. Juanita Grayum.

North Dakota?

[backyard sylph]

Missouri, @Jug Band Baby Greater Kansas City area.

[Jug Band Baby]

Just now, backyard sylph said:

Missouri, @Jug Band Baby Greater Kansas City area.

My grandmother's sister has the same name as was an English teacher.  She lives in North Dakota now, and I'm pretty sure she taught there.  But several of my grandmother's siblings live in the Kansas City area, and my grandmother and grandfather live just outside Branson.  I'm going to ask my grandma if her sister ever taught in Missouri.  What a hoot if my grandmother's sister was your teacher.  

[backyard sylph]

32 minutes ago, Jug Band Baby said:

My grandmother's sister has the same name as was an English teacher.  She lives in North Dakota now, and I'm pretty sure she taught there.  But several of my grandmother's siblings live in the Kansas City area, and my grandmother and grandfather live just outside Branson.  I'm going to ask my grandma if her sister ever taught in Missouri.  What a hoot if my grandmother's sister was your teacher.  

That would be pretty neat. I think my Mrs. Grayum would be in her 90s now, but as far as I know, she is still living.

[evolutionbaby]

11 hours ago, HereticHick said:

As far as I can reckon, Jim Bob's businesses +TLC payments are having to support THIRTY people: himself & Michelle, Josh, Anna and soon to be five kids, the Seewald clan (4), the Dillard clan (soon to be 4), and 13 Duggarlings. And a new wife, Kendra, will be added to the crowd in a few months, and she won't be bringing in any income.

There is likely quite a bit of equity in the family. All the men you mentioned above + any of the unmarried teenage or adult boys are likely working in the family business, helping in one way or another, with the exception of possibly Derick who is grifting for donations. It's possible the businesses while owned by JB are bringing in enough salaries to keep 5-7 families or more afloat. His real estate investments alone could be doing that. Real estate, especially rentals, can be incredibly lucrative for not all that much work...they have the "manpower" for renovations and repairs to properties, and other than maybe dealing with tenant disputes there's not much else to do except bank the rent. And I don't doubt that Austin has probably amassed a small fortune from flipping 5 houses and is much further ahead than most 23 year olds.

None of the Duggars seem to be struggling financially, in any sense of the word. Nor do they have many extravagances. The only thing they seem to splurge on is plane tickets and manicures, but I'm sure they have found some way to get those cheap if they want them. A lot of their plane trips could be purchased with Airmiles points and maybe they own the building where the salon is that they go to. That kind of thing. I have a feeling that the Duggars get a lot of things without money exchanging hands. That's not to say that they don't require money to live, only that they look for opportunities to acquire things without paying cash for them.

[MadeItOut]

9 hours ago, Fluffy14 said:

 

I am positive there are some pretty shaky unhappy marriages in churches, that nobody even suspects are that way. My daughters friends parents are happily married after 30 + years.......because they have never fought.  The daughter asked me if that was normal. I said no way. Somebody is always giving in and it is probably your mother. She said I was the first person to tell her that. How SAD is that?

There was a couple like that in our church. I really used to look up to her on that until I noticed that she would say "...we've never fought" and separately he would say "...she has never crossed me".

[Lurky]

@backyard sylph @Fluffy14 Whenever I talk about my partner getting into Vineyard as a teen, and it really hurting her (esp the "spiritual counselling" to de-gay her) , someone will come around and say "but Vineyard isn't even slightly Fundy!  You don't know what you're talking about!" - but I'm always fascinated by her stories of her church being full-on 'Slain in the spirit', barking like dogs and all that stuff.

I've listened to the tapes (that dates me!) of the big national UK youth stuff my partner went to, and it's really, really strange.  The worst part was in this huge tent, the preacher asking women (specifically) to come forward if they were victims of sexual abuse, and once they did, have hands laid on them...  and then chiding the young men in the audience for not touching the women.

[backyard sylph]

6 minutes ago, Lurky said:

@backyard sylph @Fluffy14 Whenever I talk about my partner getting into Vineyard as a teen, and it really hurting her (esp the "spiritual counselling" to de-gay her) , someone will come around and say "but Vineyard isn't even slightly Fundy!  You don't know what you're talking about!" - but I'm always fascinated by her stories of her church being full-on 'Slain in the spirit', barking like dogs and all that stuff.

I've listened to the tapes (that dates me!) of the big national UK youth stuff my partner went to, and it's really, really strange.  The worst part was in this huge tent, the preacher asking women (specifically) to come forward if they were victims of sexual abuse, and once they did, have hands laid on them...  and then chiding the young men in the audience for not touching the women.

Most of the people I knew personally were a little leery of "folding in" to the Vineyard, while plenty of others were excited at this big movement. It caused a huge split in KCF, but that was also around the time I was more able to tune it all out. In 1988 I went to work doing data entry for an evangelist I will not name who is now rather incredibly (or not, as these things go,) the pastor of a church, and there were people there from a variety of denominations. They were a combination of suspicious of/mildly jealous of Vineyard people, lone representative there being the receptionist, Mom's friend who helped me get the job. My favorite was the Presbyterian accounts manager. I learned a lot of Bible verses from her, as I had an affinity for memorizing quotations.

Anyway, refusing to speak in tongues right from the beginning meant I could never fully be embraced or—trusted? and after being pushed to the floor a few times, I avoided all but the Sunday sermon and Tuesday scripture history classes, and then easily drifted off after Mom died.

[Marly]

I find the whole speaking in tongues very interesting, from an academic perspective. I just finished a course called "transgressive religion" at my university, and I wrote my final paper on glossolalia and the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement, looking at how non-Pentecostal perceptions on glossolalia influence(d) the standing of glossolalia within P/C denominations and churches. However, I within the limited time frame I had to write the paper (a week) I wasn't able to find a lot of accounts like yours, (ex-) adherents' personal perspective on the practice. And the websites of the big churches don't mention it at all! (I used a combination of scholarly papers and accounts from the P/C perspective).

[backyard sylph]

1 minute ago, Marly said:

I find the whole speaking in tongues very interesting, from an academic perspective. I just finished a course called "transgressive religion" at my university, and I wrote my final paper on glossolalia and the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement, looking at how non-Pentecostal perceptions on glossolalia influence(d) the standing of glossolalia within P/C denominations and churches. However, I within the limited time frame I had to write the paper (a week) I wasn't able to find a lot of accounts like yours, (ex-) adherents' personal perspective on the practice. And the websites of the big churches don't mention it at all! (I used a combination of scholarly papers and accounts from the P/C perspective).

I'd enjoy learning more about it from an academic point of view. That is, if it was not too heady for the peri-menopausal brain. To me as a teenager it looked like what I'd now call mass hypnosis, and I didn't like the sense they had lost control of their own thoughts. They looked upon it as something open and freeing, apparently, instead. And when people tried to make me do it, well, that is always the surest path to "no," as far as I'm concerned. They insisted it was part of being "filled with the Holy Spirit." I dislike social pressure.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

9 hours ago, evolutionbaby said:

There is likely quite a bit of equity in the family. All the men you mentioned above + any of the unmarried teenage or adult boys are likely working in the family business, helping in one way or another, with the exception of possibly Derick who is grifting for donations. It's possible the businesses while owned by JB are bringing in enough salaries to keep 5-7 families or more afloat. His real estate investments alone could be doing that. Real estate, especially rentals, can be incredibly lucrative for not all that much work...they have the "manpower" for renovations and repairs to properties, and other than maybe dealing with tenant disputes there's not much else to do except bank the rent. And I don't doubt that Austin has probably amassed a small fortune from flipping 5 houses and is much further ahead than most 23 year olds.

I think the Duggars will be financially solvent for a good many more years, but as more in laws come into the fold and more grand babies are born, that will be harder and harder to maintain, if at least a handful of them do not find ways of supporting themselves and or adding to the family estate.  

I think Austin with his house flipping, and JD & Joe, possibly Si with their construction back grounds can support a family or chip in to the community money pool, if that is how they do it (which wouldn't surprise me in that fucked up family), Derick has potential to make good money if he'd get a damn job.  Josh is hopeless/helpless, and Ben is still just a kid so who knows with him. Jeremy is out he's taking care of his family and not letting boob control it.  I'm interested to see how Austin handles his life now that he's got some control of it, his father seems to be VERY controlling, but all we really know of his was that stupid TV show they were on for an hour once and we all know how that stuff is manipulated for entertainment and added drama. One thing I'm pretty sure of is those two were kissing long before their wedding, no way was that kiss on stage their 1st. 

[SassyPants]

The problem isn't that the ILs can't support themselves, but, rather, it seems that once they get bit by the Duggar bug, the ILs get the lazies. They get the entitled idea that they do not need to work to support themselves or their dependent family members. This is the icing on JB's and M's caustic parenting cake...the fact that they have convinced their children [and actually shown them] that no adult in a family needs to hold a paying job that matches their skill sets and knowledge bases.

[OyToTheVey]

21 hours ago, seraaa said:

#GodblessIsrael annoys me, perhaps irrationally. Not because I don't want God to bless Israel, but the relationship certain fundamentalist Christians have with it is odd and I can't quite place my finger on why. What is the deal?

Perhaps this is just me being BEC

TBH as a Jew it's borderline offensive. Yes I understand Jesus but it's as if they ignore everything else! I don't know how to explain it. But it's the Holy Land for many religions not just their weird brand of Christianity. 

[HarleyQuinn]

Why are they in Israel, are they STILL on their Honeymoon?

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

1 hour ago, HarleyQuinn said:

Why are they in Israel, are they STILL on their Honeymoon?

Because Jesus.  Austin has never been there but I'm pretty sure Joy has.  I would love to go myself for the religious reasons as well as just to see the area for all of its history. 

[nesquick]

3 hours ago, OyToTheVey said:

TBH as a Jew it's borderline offensive. Yes I understand Jesus but it's as if they ignore everything else! I don't know how to explain it. But it's the Holy Land for many religions not just their weird brand of Christianity. 

Some Christians believe that all us Jews need to go to Israel to bring about the second coming. I think it's called Christian Zionism, not something I'm particularly pleased with.

[melon]

The Duggars have traveled as a family a lot.I remember once they went to all of Great Britain.They tasted several different dishes,I don't remember all,but Joy said her favorite was Bangers and Mash.Isn't that made with sausage?I am asking because I thought they don't eat pork.On another episode Josiah was making turkey bacon.Anna was making "cows in a blanket" instead of pigs in a blanket.

 

[Four is Enough]

25 minutes ago, melon said:

Anna was making "cows in a blanket" instead of pigs in a blanket.

 

On that same trip to great Britain, Anna was worried about "toad in a hole" fearing that there would indeed be a toad for her breakfast. Is anyone really that stupid, and why wouldn't you ask about "toad in a hole" before you ordered it??