Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon

[BernRul]

D and D cannot write women. GRRM can, and these hacks have benefited off of his skills and gotten credit that they don't deserve. 

Two mad queens? Seriously? We can't have a competent female ruler is the message I heard. Especially because everyone just says Jon is a good ruler without showing an ounce of intelligence. I think Jon is a good ruler-- in the books, where he's clever and kindhearted but willing to get his hands dirty too. In the show he's just an idiot who we are repeatedly told is the best king for some reason.

It's not just Dany. D and D can't write women at all. Cersei is a "mother not a monster" as if you can't be both, as if being a mother is some magical thing. Sansa is supposed to be clever but comes off as catty instead. Arya is a badass because she eschews all traditional femininity.

Also, they say we should've seen this coming because Dany is a Targ. Excuse me? Even excluding that a lot of Targs are fine people (cough Jon), what's the message there? Your family was garbage and so are you? It's the same thing with Jaime. Try to remove yourself from your monster sisters influence? Nope, you'll be addicted forever! It's like the writers said to Dany and Jaime "you cant fight your destiny and fuck you for trying." 

[VelociRapture]

18 minutes ago, BernRul said:

D and D cannot write women. GRRM can, and these hacks have benefited off of his skills and gotten credit that they don't deserve. 

Two mad queens? Seriously? We can't have a competent female ruler is the message I heard. Especially because everyone just says Jon is a good ruler without showing an ounce of intelligence. I think Jon is a good ruler-- in the books, where he's clever and kindhearted but willing to get his hands dirty too. In the show he's just an idiot who we are repeatedly told is the best king for some reason.

It's not just Dany. D and D can't write women at all. Cersei is a "mother not a monster" as if you can't be both, as if being a mother is some magical thing. Sansa is supposed to be clever but comes off as catty instead. Arya is a badass because she eschews all traditional femininity.

Also, they say we should've seen this coming because Dany is a Targ. Excuse me? Even excluding that a lot of Targs are fine people (cough Jon), what's the message there? Your family was garbage and so are you? It's the same thing with Jaime. Try to remove yourself from your monster sisters influence? Nope, you'll be addicted forever! It's like the writers said to Dany and Jaime "you cant fight your destiny and fuck you for trying." 

Yep. Book Jon is (thus far) smart and capable, though he still has that fatal Stark devotion to honor. TV Jon? After they ran out of source material he turned into a bumbling idiot who is only still alive thanks to the women surrounding him who are smarter than he is - mainly Sansa, Dany, and Arya. If it weren’t for those three he’d have had three separate guaranteed deaths in just the last two (I think it’s two) seasons. And that’s not even counting the very real death that Melisandre actually saved him from either. Homeboy is damn lucky to be surrounded by a bunch of smart and capable women who are apparently ok with constantly having to save his ass. It’s a pity because Kit Harrington has played him so beautifully over the years (as have the other actors - if D&D deserve credit for anything it was hiring whoever it was that ultimately cast the major roles in the show because they did a spectacular job.)

And you make a fair point about the whole all Targaryens are insane thing. It could be argued that Jon’s Stark side balances it out for him, but that doesn’t explain Maester Aemon at all. Aemon always struck me as very with it mentally and he was a solid source of emotional support to Jon when he desperately needed it. The only time we saw him decline was during the journey South with Sam and that was mostly because he was dying at that point, not because he was insane.

[BernRul]

43 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

And you make a fair point about the whole all Targaryens are insane thing. It could be argued that Jon’s Stark side balances it out for him, but that doesn’t explain Maester Aemon at all. Aemon always struck me as very with it mentally and he was a solid source of emotional support to Jon when he desperately needed it. The only time we saw him decline was during the journey South with Sam and that was mostly because he was dying at that point, not because he was insane.

Even if there were only mad Targs I'd still hate the message. It's saying that if your genes are bad you will automatically be bad too. That's not just a bad message, it's a sinister one with a lot of unfortunate implications. 

[clueliss]

But but but Rheagar was supposed to be kind and loving until the mythos of him kidnapping and raping Luann’s Stark rose up.  

[Maggie Mae]

1 hour ago, clueliss said:

But but but Rheagar was supposed to be kind and loving until the mythos of him kidnapping and raping Luann’s Stark rose up.  

And Egg was a kind and just ruler until whatever happened at Summerhall. 
I really should read Fire & Blood. 

I don't know if Rhaegar was kind and loving, he did leave his sickly Dornish wife to run off with Lyanna. He was described by Barristan to be a boy more concerned about books than fighting, until he read a book and realized he needed to learn to fight. 

I thought it was clear that the "gods flip a coin" to determine the sanity of any random Targaryen, but that's what the smallfolk say. In actuality, Aerys was distrustful and paranoid after he was captured, tortured, and eventually liberated by the Lannisters. They also say that his fear of sharp objects made him stop cutting his hair and nails. He was so afraid of poison that he stopped eating and grew gaunt and looked much older than his 40 years. 

IDK, I just really like the world building that GRRM did. His version of Dany is much more nuanced and never locked anyone in a vault. 

[JenniferJuniper]

On 5/14/2019 at 6:50 PM, BernRul said:

D and D cannot write women.

Agreed totally with this.

At the end of the day, however, and assuming someone actually sits on the bloody throne, Sansa Stark is far and away the only remaining character I'd hire for the position.  

[NakedKnees]

Sansa is pretty much undoubtedly the best suited for the throne at this point, but how would she claim it with just one episode left? For a while, I've wanted to see season 8 end with the end of the monarchy as we know it. I'd love to see Dany deservedly die or otherwise leave Westeros, Jon claim the throne by right then immediately basically elevate the small council, which could include Sansa, Tyrion, Davos, etc to co-ruling roles. I'm not an expert in political organizational terms, but I think I'm picturing some sort of parliament. Dany will have successfully "broken the wheel" that way too. I can't see this idea providing resolution for EVERY major character (like Bran and Arya) though.

[VelociRapture]

I like the idea of Sansa taking control of Winterfell in her own right. She’s proven she’s capable of leading and advocating for the North, a place she obviously loves and feels safest in. I don’t think she’d do well on the Iron Throne though. I think she’s more capable than most of the other characters, but Martin has been clear in the books that power on that level is a highly corrupting influence. I want more for Sansa than to know she’s ultimately going to succumb to that corruption. She’s come too far as a character and she deserves better than that. Better to let her stay in the North where she’ll be happy. I want her to live, but I’m not sure if she will or not. It depends on how much revenge Dany is able to enact prior to the ending.

Dany deserves far better than the treatment she’s gotten this Season. They should have been making it clear this was the direction they were going with back in Season Five or Six, but they wanted the element of surprise or something so we got this cluster instead. At this point I don’t see Dany living through next episode though and that’s sad because there were truly admirable things about her character in addition to the things that made me side eye her. 

Jon is a bumbling baboon of an idiot who is only still alive thanks to the strong women surrounding him who continually save his ass. I think he’d honestly try to do what’s right if he were King, but he has that fatal Stark devotion to honesty and loyalty. I think he’d find it extremely difficult to rule for that reason. I also don’t think that’s the way Martin wanted his story to go either - he’s all about bucking expectations and everyone expects Jon to be King now. I think he’ll either die like Dany or he’ll refuse the throne or he’ll do something like what @NakedKneesmentioned where he elevates a number of people to rule as a Council or Parliament together.

if they follow historical precedent, then there’ll be a merging of two great houses through marriage that is meant to bring peace. This will likely be Tyrion and Sansa, who best represent the two sides of the recent struggles - similar to the peace enacting marriage of Henry VII and Elizabeth of York. That may not be necessary though considering Tyrion is on their side and the people who weren’t are dead. We could see Jon finally agree to marry Dany to wrap things up nicely in this vein, but I don’t know if Dany would go for that at this point. Even if she did, that would really make me uncomfortable considering it’s a marriage by coercion, incest, and because GOT has a bad track record when it comes to depicting unequal sexual relationships, etc.

So... I’m not sure. I don’t really want anyone on the Iron Throne at this point. I don’t think any of them is capable of ruling from it without succumbing to the power. Id really like to see the Seven Kingdoms split up into separate realms again or something, but I don’t think that’ll happen. I don’t really know what that leaves as an option. 

[47of74]

Ser Jorah, is this you?

 

[BernRul]

In retrospect, there's always been signs. 

From season 1, when Loras Tyrell, the new celebrity knight, a young Jaime Lannister, was turned into a gay stereotype. When Renly and Loras's only characteristic were "those gay knights." 

From season 1, when there was sexposition in unnecessary parts.

Post season 2, when Loras sleeps around with men after Renly dies, when in the book he vows to be celibate because "once that sun sets it never returns."

From seasons1-4, when Dany was naked so many unnecessary times that Emilia Clarke put her foot down.

From season 3 or 4, when the actress playing Ros the prosititue complained about all the nudity, and D&D responded by killing her off naked and full of arrows in what had to be the most dehumanizing display of a woman in the series.

In season 4, when they cut the Tysha reveal, thus taking away Tyrion's reason for killing Tywin and Shae and Jaime's reason for turning against Cersei.

In season 4, when they made Jaime, the most anti-rape male in the book (wants to save Rhaella from being raped by Aerys but can't, empathizes with Brienne when she's about to be raped by the Brave Companions) rape Cersei and they go and say it isn't rape.

In season 5, when they were rumored to have a falling out with GRRM which resulted in them no longer being on speaking terms.

In season 5, when Barriston Selmy's actor, a passionate book fan, wrote a letter explaining why he didn't want his charater dying when he's starting to play a big role in the recent books. D&D told that story at a panel and laughingly said "that made us want to kill him even more."

In season 5/6, when they changed the plot so Sansa is raped, then played it off as "making her stronger." As if being raped makes you stronger.

In season 5, when they ruined the Sand Snakes and Ellaria Sand, making them bloodthirsty murders and showing off the girls' breasts for no reason. 

The signs have been there for a while that D&D, specifically Benioff, are misogynistic, don't know how to write gay men unless it's a stereotype, and are all around nasty people to work with. I hope that now, finally, people start to see it. 

 

Edited May 19, 2019 by BernRul

[VelociRapture]

Spoiler

So I just watched the finale and I... didn’t hate it? I don’t know. I’m still frustrated that they didn’t do the work to get here properly. I feel like they really butchered a lot of the characters after running out of surge material. 

But I also think this is likely where Martin is heading with his books. I wasn’t considering Bran as King, but I think it kind of makes sense - at least the way Tyrion worded it. Bran doesn’t have the same motivations as the other characters do. I do think their idea of selecting a monarch rather than making it an inherited job was true to the spirit of Martin’s story. It was a way to break the wheel - as Dany wanted - while also respecting the customs of Westeros. At least it broke the wheel for now. I have a feeling that won’t last forever. 

Dany... her storyline still kills me. I can definitely see Martin wanting it this way, but I think it would have been done so much better if he had been involved. It was just too rushed. Emilia Clarke really played her and all her complexities so beautifully though. 

I do like the endings for Jon, Sansa, Arya, and some of the other characters though. I didn’t want Jon as King and I’m glad they didn’t go that way. I think he’ll find peace and feel useful living with the Freefolk beyond the Wall.

Sansa saw her opportunity, took her shot, and absolutely nailed it. I’m glad she ended up as Queen in the North - she’ll do very well there.

Arya... I’m glad she’s off on an adventure. Marriage and motherhood weren’t right for her, at least not at this point in her life (and they possibly never will be.) Exploring the uncharted world is a fitting end for her arc. 

TV Tyrion got the justice he deserved, as Bran said. Not sure how it’ll go in the books as he’s quite different in those, but I think it’s fitting he’ll spend his life righting all the wrongs he helped create. That scene of him finding his siblings in the rubble was genuinely sad though. Peter Dinklage is such a talented actor and he really sold that scene for me.

Greyworm gets the honor of being the sole brown person with a name to survive! I’m glad he’s heading to Naath. He can have his nice beach trip and help protect the place Missandei loved. 

Brienne and Pod both have fitting endings, as do Davos and Sam. Not really sure about Bronn though. Not sure I like that he ended up on the Small Council, though I did appreciate the bit of humor he brought to that last scene he was in. I think Bran has a decent Council to help run things while he does general bird stuff.

Drogon... his nudging Dany’s body almost made me cry because all I could picture was baby Simba trying to wake Mufasa up. I like that the throne was destroyed and that Dany only ever got to touch it rather than sit on it. I kind of hope Drogon goes off to live peacefully on his own somewhere.  

And, of course, JON FINALLY GAVE GHOST THE LOVE HE DESERVES!!!! I very nearly cried at that. I would have been heartbroken if they didn’t show him one last time. I’m glad the goodest boy in Westeros got the only truly happy ending on the show. 

 

[Destiny]

Spoiler

Most of it was bullshit (and i don’t even really watch this show!) but I’m glad my boy Ghost got his happy ending. 

 

[Mela99]

Mela: watches series finale

Mela after series finale:

[47of74]

31 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

  Hide contents

So I just watched the finale and I... didn’t hate it? I don’t know. I’m still frustrated that they didn’t do the work to get here properly. I feel like they really butchered a lot of the characters after running out of surge material. 

But I also think this is likely where Martin is heading with his books. I wasn’t considering Bran as King, but I think it kind of makes sense - at least the way Tyrion worded it. Bran doesn’t have the same motivations as the other characters do. I do think their idea of selecting a monarch rather than making it an inherited job was true to the spirit of Martin’s story. It was a way to break the wheel - as Dany wanted - while also respecting the customs of Westeros. At least it broke the wheel for now. I have a feeling that won’t last forever. 

Dany... her storyline still kills me. I can definitely see Martin wanting it this way, but I think it would have been done so much better if he had been involved. It was just too rushed. Emilia Clarke really played her and all her complexities so beautifully though. 

I do like the endings for Jon, Sansa, Arya, and some of the other characters though. I didn’t want Jon as King and I’m glad they didn’t go that way. I think he’ll find peace and feel useful living with the Freefolk beyond the Wall.

Sansa saw her opportunity, took her shot, and absolutely nailed it. I’m glad she ended up as Queen in the North - she’ll do very well there.

Arya... I’m glad she’s off on an adventure. Marriage and motherhood weren’t right for her, at least not at this point in her life (and they possibly never will be.) Exploring the uncharted world is a fitting end for her arc. 

TV Tyrion got the justice he deserved, as Bran said. Not sure how it’ll go in the books as he’s quite different in those, but I think it’s fitting he’ll spend his life righting all the wrongs he helped create. That scene of him finding his siblings in the rubble was genuinely sad though. Peter Dinklage is such a talented actor and he really sold that scene for me.

Greyworm gets the honor of being the sole brown person with a name to survive! I’m glad he’s heading to Naath. He can have his nice beach trip and help protect the place Missandei loved. 

Brienne and Pod both have fitting endings, as do Davos and Sam. Not really sure about Bronn though. Not sure I like that he ended up on the Small Council, though I did appreciate the bit of humor he brought to that last scene he was in. I think Bran has a decent Council to help run things while he does general bird stuff.

Drogon... his nudging Dany’s body almost made me cry because all I could picture was baby Simba trying to wake Mufasa up. I like that the throne was destroyed and that Dany only ever got to touch it rather than sit on it. I kind of hope Drogon goes off to live peacefully on his own somewhere.  

And, of course, JON FINALLY GAVE GHOST THE LOVE HE DESERVES!!!! I very nearly cried at that. I would have been heartbroken if they didn’t show him one last time. I’m glad the goodest boy in Westeros got the only truly happy ending on the show. 

 

Spoiler

I wonder if Grey Worm and the Unsullied had somehow managed to recover Missandei's remains and took them home to give her a proper burial? 

Also I think this was my favorite tweet so far....

 

 

[justmy2cents]

Spoiler

It was OK for me. The only I guess exciting part for me was Jon stabbing Dany. I did not expect that. Where everyone ended up was fitting I guess. In a way everyone ended back where they belong. And yes, I was very happy to see Jon reunite with Ghost and Tormund.

 

[47of74]

Spoiler

And of course if Walter Sobchak delivered her eulogy...

Dany was a good bowler, and a good woman. She was one of us. She was a woman who loved the outdoors... bowling...and dragon riding, and as a dragon rider she explored the beaches of Southern Essos, from Astapor to Yunkai and up to Mereen. She died, like so many young women of her generation, she died before her time. In your wisdom, Lord, you took her, as you took so many bright flowering young women at Winterfell, at East Watch, at Braavos. These young women gave their lives. And so would Dany...Dany, who loved bowling. And so, Daenerys Stormborn Targaryen, in accordance with what we think your dying wishes might well have been, we commit your final mortal remains to the bosom of the Sunset Sea, which you loved so well. Good night, sweet princess.

 

[NakedKnees]

This ending feels Disney-ish, but I love Disney, so that's not really a complaint.

Jon killing Dany made sense but I wish it had been fleshed out better and drawn out less.

I loved Drogon this episode. I'm very much team "Drogon is off to Valyria to lay eggs!"

Lengthy-period-of-time-prisoner Jon having no say in the future of Westeros was surprisingly hot for me. Yes, yes, more cute strong boys in that position please.

Sam warmed my heart proposing democracy and being laughed at. That may have been my favorite part of the episode.

I loved the ending sequence, particularly Sansa and Brienne finally getting the roles in society they deserve, although I wish those could have been fleshed out more. Someone had to have questioned those. But the new small council was still great, as were the call backs to past shots.

Tyrion finally has a good episode this season, yay.

I don't love Arya going West. It strikes me as a bit random. I would have preferred her returning to Braavos.

And I'll be very unpopular and say... I'm not huge on how dogs are treated (borderline worshipped) in film media, so Ghost's reappearance was a little bit eye rolly to me. Sorry!! It was still sweet and good for the resolution of Jon's character though. I was really happy with that element.

Bran! What a surprise. I like it though.

[Bethella]

Given how this season played out, this episode was surprisingly better than I expected but I’m still disappointed.

[clueliss]

The finale was okay.  It didn't suck.  But it wasn't great either.  It hasn't left me as pissed off as the Lost finale (I have yet to go back and do a series rewatch on that) (I have grown to accept/understand the finale/ending of Ron Moore's BSG - and I'll get there faster with this series on the actual ending.  It will be the mess that S7 and S8 are.

I have quibbles but then I have lots of those across S7 and S8.  (namely D&D - you did too need all 7 episodes you said you didn't need and I get to 7 based on 10 episodes for each of S1-6 so the missing 3 of S7 and the missing 4 of S8).  With those missing eps they could have done better build up to some of those character moments.  (Jon not kissing Dany 2 or 3 previous times after the parentage reveal are foreshadowing not plot/character development)

I would have preferred Jon deciding to go to the wall rather than have it decided for him.  But it's okay.  

Favorite line of the night was when Sansa said 'uncle sit down.'  

I'm going to soon begin a reread (this time on audio) of the book series while I wait for Martin to give us Winds of Winter.  

 

[LilMissMetaphor]

Spoiler

 

So disappointed by this ending.  I mean I was mad enough with Jaime's character assassination last week and him dying, that was bad enough.  But all of this?

Bran...exactly what has he done to deserve being a leader? He sits around blank-faced and occasionally utters a few portentous words.  BS.  He's done nothing for seasons and now we're supposed to accept he's going to be an effective leader for the new world?

Arya becomes a purposeless wandering pirate? If she has nothing to do, she might as well stay in the castle with Gendry and sail a yacht up and down the shore when she gets bored, become part of local law enforcement, scare people into behaving themselves by taking faces every now and again.  But noooo, she's gotta just drift off into the sunset because she doesn't want to sew and wear a dress.

Same with Jon, after all he went through he's just going to wander vaguely in the woods with the wildlings?

What the fuck was Bronn doing on the small council? He should be dead or at least imprisoned.  Guy has no loyalty.  

Sam's still a fool that people laugh at in public?

The only things that were good about this episode were Dany dying, Brienne writing Jaime's story in the book, and Ghost getting his token recognition.

 

 

[47of74]

A couple weeks ago we had a coffee cup. Now it's some bottled water.

 

Quote

Just two weeks after eagle-eyed viewers spotted a rogue takeaway coffee cup in an episode of "Game of Thrones," the show's highly anticipated finale left fans bemused once again.

This time, a plastic water bottle made a cameo appearance. Eight years of fighting for the Iron Throne can leave you a bit parched, after all.

Viewers spotted it tucked behind Samwell Tarly's foot, and the show was in hot water on Twitter just moments later.

I wonder if it was from the same Winterfell Starbucks where the coffee cup came from?

[TuringMachine]

I feel like everyone kinda ended up where I wanted them to but the way they got there was disappointing. Overall I was ok with the episode but I have a few issues, in ascending order of how problematic I find them:

1. Jon being Rhaegar's son wasn't as important as I would have hoped it to be. Maybe if Dany's death had been more exciting? I think the night king's death raised my expectations for major character deaths so the rest this season kind of feel flat to me.
2. I don't really have a problem with Jon ending up in the night's watch, since that's really where he belongs, but I needed some explanation as to what the night's watch does now. Like, the white walkers are gone, so the initial purpose is over, and they're friends with the white walkers now, so the adopted purpose is over too. So... what is it they do now? Also why was Sansa so upset? It's not like castle black is super far from Winterfell. Pretty sure she can go visit Jon if she wants to go see him.
3. I feel like Sansa was robbed of a good Queen in the north crowning. Jon and Robb got these great scenes, but Sansa just got a background scene in a montage. She earned her crown! #teamsansa
4. Am I supposed to believe that the unsullied, who were just slaughtering soldiers that surrendered, didn't rampage / murder Jon after Dany was murdered? Like I'm gonna need to know what happened between those two scenes.

I also have this theory that the scene with ghost was filmed like last week and stuck in there to prevent riots 

[Maggie Mae]

I liked the finale, I read the summary spoilers and was concerned that it was going to be awful, but it was better than expected. The image of dystopian King's Landing, Dany with Drogon's wings? That was cool! As long as I don't think too deeply about the plot it's great! Every scene had great acting and attention to detail (Other than the water bottle on the floor during the Great Council.) 

I thought Sansa looked amazing when being crowned. 

Jon going north of the wall doesn't make any sense, as the Unsullied were the reason he was forced to go to Castle Black, which I guess is now only a prison/penal colony? 

Why didn't Yara also want to leave the 7 Kingdoms? Or Dorne? They also left the Rhoyner off the title of the king of the seven kingdoms. 

There were two people on the great council I didn't recognize, other than the Prince of Dorne. 

Why would they elect someone from the Kingdom that is no longer a part of the 7 Kingdoms to be King? And no one has a thing to say? What was up with the "no one lives in the Reach anymore?" 

Bronn is the worst person to be Master of Coin. Nothing makes him qualified. I did enjoy Davos taking over Stannis role as Master of Grammar. He learned from the best. 

And while we're on this, they changed Asha's name to Yara, because Asha sounded to close to Osha, but we still have a Bran and a Bron? 

It's obvious to me that the showrunners, D&D have no idea of what people liked about the source material or why the first 4 seasons were so popular. 

[clueliss]

A piece on what is wrong with the storytelling in GOT.  From Scientific American of all places.  Sociological vs Physicological.

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-real-reason-fans-hate-the-last-season-of-game-of-thrones/?redirect=1

[JenniferJuniper]

Perhaps I was drunk or a toke or two over the line last night, but was that actually GOT or did I get it mixed up with a Lifetime movie?   So tidy and convenient.

Spoiler

Maybe if Sam had been taken seriously about a true democracy and something radically different was put in place, but it all falls flat for me.  All those years of anticipating major changes in Westeros and we end up with Bran the Weird Tree Boy?  With all the shit he encountered, why would anyone trust his sly little smirk?  Why assume he'll be good?  He's not Brandon Stark anymore, he's the three eyed raven.  But what exactly IS a three eyed raven?  I'm also still confused about the children of the forest and the Night King.  (haven't read the books).  The whole thing reeks of story line convenience.

I feel the same way about the demise of the Night King.   Years of terrifying build up.  And then Arya just sticks him with the pointy end.

Blah.