BRADRICK! Divorce Part 2

[Loveday]

14 minutes ago, RebelliousEscapee said:

Just looked it up and I think you're right. Looks like they mixed up "dowry" and "bride price" or assumed them to be the same. Hm. 

Yeah, I just did some googling, too, and I think we were reading the same thing. I just remember reading about dowries in historical novels, and they were always from the bride's father to the groom. That's why there was always such angst when there were several daughters to be married off--see Pride and Prejudice. LOL!

Trust daughter-overloaded fundies to switch things around for their benefit! 

[refugee]

TBH, that might have been my mistake (mixing up the two words). Come to think of it, I remember hearing a sermon or two preached on "bride price" and that might have been the term, rather than dowry.

[CuttySark]

In the European west, dowries were intended to be the bride's contribution to the family's finances, but also her future security in case something happened to her husband. (This is also the case in Jewish marriage contracts, which provided for the bride's maintenance in case of widowhood or abandonment, and the function of the gold thaali necklace in Hindu weddings.)

Marriage contracts would include dower rights, listing out what she'd get back if her husband died, what properties would remain for her use until her death rather than all passing to the eldest son, and so on. The husband controlled it while he was alive, but usually she could dispose of it as she wanted to in her will, and if she left her surviving children after her husband's death, her dower went with her. (Marital funds were not directly combined - the dower was considered a separate pot.) 

 

A Short History of the Renaissance in Europe, Margaret L. King (pp.175-177)

/nerd

[MamaJunebug]

11 minutes ago, CuttySark said:

In the European west, dowries were intended to be the bride's contribution to the family's finances, but also her future security in case something happened to her husband. (This is also the case in Jewish marriage contracts, which provided for the bride's maintenance in case of widowhood or abandonment, and the function of the gold thaali necklace in Hindu weddings.)

Marriage contracts would include dower rights, listing out what she'd get back if her husband died, what properties would remain for her use until her death rather than all passing to the eldest son, and so on. The husband controlled it while he was alive, but usually she could dispose of it as she wanted to in her will, and if she left her surviving children after her husband's death, her dower went with her. (Marital funds were not directly combined - the dower was considered a separate pot.) 

 

A Short History of the Renaissance in Europe, Margaret L. King (pp.175-177)

/nerd

Ah! Thus the name of the old doll's place in Downton Abbey -- "the dower house"?

As much as I love Maureen O'Hara and The Quiet Man, I abominate, loathe, hate and despise that the movie made Mary Kate "greedy" for wanting her dowry of cash and furniture. 

[laPapessaGiovanna]

17 hours ago, refugee said:

TBH, that might have been my mistake (mixing up the two words). Come to think of it, I remember hearing a sermon or two preached on "bride price" and that might have been the term, rather than dowry.

In the same way your daughter's strep throat was cured by a chiropractor (or naturopath or whatever) but after a few posts it must have been the antibiotics after all?

It seemed that the dowry oops I mean the bride price (or was it dowry?) thing was etched pretty dramatically in your brain for having heard about it only twice and not even recalling it with the right name.

Can you at least remember what word is used in KJV bible? Don't fundies read it all the time? Hint it's not bride price.

[Mrs. Bean]

15 minutes ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

In the same way your daughter's strep throat was cured by a chiropractor (or naturopath or whatever) but after a few posts it must have been the antibiotics after all?

It seemed that the dowry oops I mean the bride price (or was it dowry?) thing was etched pretty dramatically in your brain for having heard about it only twice and not even recalling it with the right name.

Can you at least remember what word is used in KJV bible? Don't fundies read it all the time? Hint it's not bride price.

I don't understand your hostile tone, what gives? 

[VodouDoll]

Oh my god! This is what I get for not coming into this area of the forum in ages! The Tool is catting around Europe with burlesque dancers and BRADRICK was hooking up with dudes? What's next?  Will Meredith's Amazing Stephen become a democrat? I am so so shocked by all this!

[laPapessaGiovanna]

35 minutes ago, Mrs. Bean said:

I don't understand your hostile tone, what gives? 

It means that I am tired of moving detailed narrations from posters who can't keep their stories straight. 

[Palimpsest]

On 3/23/2017 at 9:41 AM, crawfishgirl said:

I don't think that it was Andrew who initially mentioned the sexual orientation issues.  Palimpset made a post at the end of the last thread.

Yep.  I also made it clear that nothing I had heard from my sources mentioned child abuse.  That was all Andrew.

[Palimpsest]

Scott Brown's marriage concept, as outlined at P and K's wedding, was live blogged here:

http://inundatedcalvinist.blogspot.com/2006/10/scott-brown-biblical-thinking-for.html 

Scott doesn't approve of being too picky about suitors:

Quote

Have you unreasonably kept your child from marriage? By being too picky or too passive? Calvin took men to court, the Consistory, for being too picky in an ungodly way. It does happen!

That might be a swipe at Botkin for being too picky.  

Quote

What did we do with Peter and Kelly? Two years of observation, visiting families at great expense and cost in time. Sometimes you have to take 200 hundred camels and go 500 miles to figure this thing out. I probably traveled 20,000 miles with Peter so I'd know him well. I had a list of specific topics to see what he thought – including examining the history on his computer.

So, what do you think now, Scottie?

No mention of bride prices or dowries.  At all.

[CuttySark]

2 hours ago, MamaJunebug said:

Ah! Thus the name of the old doll's place in Downton Abbey -- "the dower house"?

As much as I love Maureen O'Hara and The Quiet Man, I abominate, loathe, hate and despise that the movie made Mary Kate "greedy" for wanting her dowry of cash and furniture. 

That's it exactly! (I'd actually used that as an example in my original post but deleted it b/c I felt like I was confusing issues more.) If you were a queen, say, you could remove yourself to one of the castles that you brought to the marriage with you; the 'dower house' on the estate is basically the enlightenment era version of the mother-in-law suite. Except she was usually legally entitled. 

[Georgiana]

2 hours ago, MamaJunebug said:

Ah! Thus the name of the old doll's place in Downton Abbey -- "the dower house"?

As much as I love Maureen O'Hara and The Quiet Man, I abominate, loathe, hate and despise that the movie made Mary Kate "greedy" for wanting her dowry of cash and furniture. 

Sort of!  Same root.

A dowry is what a bride brings with her upon her wedding, usually (but not always) from her family of origin.  

A dower is a provision that a HUSBAND makes to support his wife in the event she is widowed.  This may include her dowry (and generally does if one is available) but not always.  Usually it is a mix of the estate she brings in and a portion of his estate generally reserved for the support of his widow.  Landowning families often had a traditional dower (revenue sources earmarked for the support of the widow of the head of the house), and problems arose when someone's mother lived especially long or a head of house died young as those traditional resources were still allotted to the elder dowager and not free to support the younger.    

So the "dower house" likely was NOT part of the Dowager Duchess' dowry, but rather part of her late husband's estate that was typically reserved as a provision the late Duke's widow.  Again, this was not uncommon in multi-landed families: to have a place that traditionally was reserved for the widow of the late head of the family.  

And dowager is a widow with property or title from her late husband.  

[refugee]

3 hours ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

In the same way your daughter's strep throat was cured by a chiropractor (or naturopath or whatever) but after a few posts it must have been the antibiotics after all?

It seemed that the dowry oops I mean the bride price (or was it dowry?) thing was etched pretty dramatically in your brain for having heard about it only twice and not even recalling it with the right name.

Can you at least remember what word is used in KJV bible? Don't fundies read it all the time? Hint it's not bride price.

Sorry, no, in each mention of the chiropractor I also said my children were on antibiotics, and would have gone on a fourth round of antibiotics if necessary, and that it might have been coincidence but thankfully the strep did not come back a fourth time.

I have been out of that church for some years now, and thankfully some of the exact terminology is fading from my brain. I also tend to mix up similar words IRL every day, but I do my best to be as accurate as my stupid brain allows (thank god for spellcheckers, too, though they sometimes offer me the wrong word). Give me a break!

Our former church was not crazy enough to be KJV-only. They preferred a different problematic bible, at least towards the tend of our time there, beloved of men who would subjugate women: the ESV. I grew up with the NIV. I have no idea what the KJV might have called it.

2 hours ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

It means that I am tired of moving detailed narrations from posters who can't keep their stories straight. 

I think you're still steamed about my mention of adult men still living at home in a certain country. Even though I apologized in a later post, and did more research and came up with similar stories from other countries, including my own. I could not delete that post, per FJ rules, I did my best to fix what I'd done, and I've been careful ever since trying not to post something that someone else will take personally.

My personal stories are my own, I lived them, a couple of decades of hell, and pardon me if sometimes I mix up a word or two and am not precise enough in my wording to suit your mountain-high standards.

ETA: Prejudice = pre-judge = inclined to think the worst of someone, even if they have offended without meaning to, and have apologized, and have tried to change their methods accordingly. I had hoped we'd put that unfortunate stumble on my part behind, but... am tempted to do a little pre-judging myself. Resisting the temptation. I will throw you a bone, however. I will never be as skilled and fluent in a second language as you have proved yourself to be.

[RebelliousEscapee]

19 hours ago, refugee said:

TBH, that might have been my mistake (mixing up the two words). Come to think of it, I remember hearing a sermon or two preached on "bride price" and that might have been the term, rather than dowry.

I don't think it was you. A google search pulled up multiple examples of courtship folks mixing up the two or using them as synonyms. For instance:

"If you’ve read much in the Old Testament, you’ve heard of the bride price and the dowry. According to Philip Kayser, these were payments made by the groom to his betrothed wife’s family. The dowry provided a guarantee of financial security to the wife in case of the groom’s death or desertion. The bride price was a compensation to the wife’s family for her loss—in other words, it was assumed that the bride had been a positive economic good to her parentsduring her single years, and that economic loss required some form of financial compensation." -http://www.ladiesagainstfeminism.com/biblical-womanhood/is-stay-at-home-daughterhood-biblical/

[refugee]

17 minutes ago, Georgiana said:

A dowry is what a bride brings with her upon her wedding, usually (but not always) from her family of origin.  

Does this include the hope chest, or would it have been in addition to the hope chest? As I recall, the prospective bride furnished the hope chest with her own efforts, and it sounds like the dowry would come out of her family's resources.

3 minutes ago, RebelliousEscapee said:

I don't think it was you. A google search pulled up multiple examples of courtship folks mixing up the two or using them as synonyms. For instance:

"If you’ve read much in the Old Testament, you’ve heard of the bride price and the dowry. According to Philip Kayser, these were payments made by the groom to his betrothed wife’s family. The dowry provided a guarantee of financial security to the wife in case of the groom’s death or desertion. The bride price was a compensation to the wife’s family for her loss—in other words, it was assumed that the bride had been a positive economic good to her parentsduring her single years, and that economic loss required some form of financial compensation." -http://www.ladiesagainstfeminism.com/biblical-womanhood/is-stay-at-home-daughterhood-biblical/

Thank you. That makes me feel a little less stupid. (Only a little, mind. I will always feel terrible about letting myself get sucked into that horrible movement, and raising our kids in it. I'm so glad they were the first to break free. They freed all of us.)

[sawasdee]

Just spent MUCH TOO MUCH time reading this and preceding thread. I make it a rule I don't comment until I have read the whole thing - so I don't just reiterate things already said.....

Takeaways from these threads:

1) There was never any allegation of bestiality. A poster used the phrase 'screw the pooch' which where I'm from, means to fuck up. Has nothing to do with sexual activity. But somehow that was translated into worry about a Doberman.....

2) Anyone raised as Bradrick was, with later a complete reliance on the word of a 'godly mentor' (in his case, DPIAT), who then sees all that he has believed in betrayed by that mentor - well, I think that could leave you unmoored and drifting. Questioning everything. Even perhaps believing that what you had been taught about sexuality might not be the Written Word of God. Could lead to some acting out.

3) I've been to almost everywhere DPIAT went on 'Manly Adventures' - on my own, and 20 to 30 years ago! So I suppose my 25 to 50 year old self was a Manly Man? (Shudder!) These were ALL normal tourist destinations by the time he went there!

4) I still can't get my head around the way Fundies of all stripes take the word of the OT over the NT. Surely Christian means a follower of Christ - who specifically disowned OT law, and said he had come to give a new law.

I don't have the scriptural knowledge to find all the quotes to justify this - I went to ebil catholic convent schools, where the emphasis was squarely on 'Love the neighbour as thyself', and 'turn the other cheek'.

But I do remember all the stuff about clothing the naked, feeding the hungry, nursing the sick - so where the heck are these churches which have been talked about as expanding and taking over more traditional ministries, coming from, in using their funds for expansion rather than following the Christ they claim to espouse?

Just reminds me why I left the institutionalised church.Too many are the same - no matter what they call themselves - out for more power, and more money for the Pastor/Priest/Rector or whatever.

The honourable exceptions to the above I really do admire - but, unfortunately, we don't hear much about them - they are too busy doing as Christ asked.

And - a serious question - why does the US seem to be more vulnerable to dubious churches than any other nation?

/rant.

 

 

 

[Georgiana]

9 minutes ago, refugee said:

Does this include the hope chest, or would it have been in addition to the hope chest? As I recall, the prospective bride furnished the hope chest with her own efforts, and it sounds like the dowry would come out of her family's resources.

Thank you. That makes me feel a little less stupid. (Only a little, mind. I will always feel terrible about letting myself get sucked into that horrible movement, and raising our kids in it. I'm so glad they were the first to break free. They freed all of us.)

Depends on culture and the value of the goods.

The common hope chest in the West was often restricted to goods that were used to set up the marital home (linens, china, quilts, dresses, fabric, etc).  Useful and necessary things, but not so much things of extensive value on their own.  These things also tended to wear out, so while something might be set aside as part of the woman's own estate, the likelihood of hope chest items still being around/serviceable in her widowhood was low (as opposed to a dowry that could be set aside).  So the functions/potential functions of the two were very different.  I'd say it was more like a wedding registry is today.  

In cultures or situations where the "hope chest" equivalent contained items of greater value, they were counted as part of the dowry.   Usually in this case the "hope chest" contained things that were not commonly used and could be sold if needed: gold, jewelry, jade, silver plate, etc. for a bride marrying into a home that was already well furnished.  

 

[refugee]

29 minutes ago, Georgiana said:

Usually in this case the "hope chest" contained things that were not commonly used and could be sold if needed: gold, jewelry, jade, silver plate, etc. for a bride marrying into a home that was already well furnished.  

Thanks for the clarification!

This reminds me of a story I heard once, about a woman who funded her family's (husband and children) escape from encroaching Communist forces (in 1956?) by selling/trading her jewels, one by one. I don't remember all the details; I was really little when I heard the adults talking about it.

[MamaJunebug]

1 hour ago, Georgiana said:

And dowager is a widow with property or title from her late husband.

Ah-HA!  I figured there had to be a connection between dower house & dowager, Thomas th dowry hadn't occurred to me during my DA-watchin' era. 

[RosyDaisy]

@refugee How is the ESV problematic? I use that version, and so does my church? I'm not fundie and neither is my church.

[refugee]

41 minutes ago, RosyDaisy said:

@refugee How is the ESV problematic? I use that version, and so does my church? I'm not fundie and neither is my church.

I can't remember where I first read about it, but there was something of an uproar last year on some of the blogs I read. Google "ESV controversy." Here's one link:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2016/09/12/the-new-stealth-translation-esv/

Basically, the ESV folks said their latest rendition (in which Genesis 3 had been changed to make it more clear that man was to rule over women), was now the set-in-stone, permanent version.

Ironically enough, I think they retracted their stance after the controversy broke out. Guess it's not so set-in-stone as they'd hoped.

p.s. I used to love the ESV and used it a lot, but because my previous church used it, quoted it, read aloud from it in services, lockstep repeated certain verses together as a congregation, I can't bear to read the bible in that translation anymore. It's too triggering. I didn't realize until long after we left that church that the ESV is the beloved translation of neo-Calvinists and that some verses have been translated to support complementarianism (and dominionism? not sure about that one).

[Palimpsest]

1 hour ago, sawasdee said:

why does the US seem to be more vulnerable to dubious churches than any other nation?

That First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States has serious draw backs.  And Europe kept kicking those dubious sects across the pond. 

I dunno.  All religions and denominations have to start somewhere and most are persecuted before they get big enough to be thought respectable.  The USA is big enough to hide kooky religions too.

A lot of the VF crowd is fine with the Geneva Bible.  Not all Fundies are KJV-only.

[sawasdee]

1 minute ago, Palimpsest said:

That First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States has serious draw backs.  And Europe kept kicking those dubious sects across the pond. 

I dunno.  All religions and denominations have to start somewhere and most are persecuted before they get big enough to be thought respectable.  The USA is big enough to hide kooky religions too.

A lot of the VF crowd is fine with the Geneva Bible.  Not all Fundies are KJV-only.

Never thought of that - but you're right! Then they had space to spread....

[sawasdee]

@refugeeGoogle is your friend. I often look up alternative translations to verses - and have been led into some amazing byways - the Aramaic - Greek - Latin - English journey often loses lots on the way. And that leaves out the mistranscribing of mediaeval monks....Did you know that most transcribed early mediaeval documents end with a variation of ' thank God that's finished - now someone give me a drink!'

And that is not a joke - it's true.

[ophelia]

On 22.3.2017 at 8:28 PM, VooDooChild said:

Am I the only on cringing that Joe and Mary have had a child per year since 2013?  Geez beans!  Stop it Joe!  Your wife's health is more important than birthing a thousand kids!

She is really super fertile. I hope she slows down soon. She got married pretty young IIRC and so she could end up with a 15+ quiver if she keeps poppin them out at that pace.