BRADRICK! Divorce Part 2

[hoipolloi]

3 hours ago, Howl said:

Getting $$$$ and setting up more 9 Marks churches is what they are after. 

 AKA Ponzi scheme or MLM, which shouldn't be surprising, considering how many fundies go in for that shit. 

[MamaJunebug]

1 hour ago, DomWackTroll said:

Here is a 1995 newspaper article on the Bradricks, and it seems that Peter is the second son (after Andy) in a family of four boys and five girls. God, what I wouldn't give to see the long-gone photos that accompanied this!

http://web.kitsapsun.com/archive/1995/02-11/304200_bradricks_raising_godly_childre.html

Well, well, well: Patriarch Michael's income was "supplemental" to sales of the curriculum written by mere matriarch Susan! 

Quote

Their for-profit Bradrick Family Enterprises sells "Understanding Writing," a Christian language arts homeschooling curriculum designed by Susan for grades 1 through 12. Until recent years, Michael supplemented the family income by employment in woodworking-related fields.

Sounds like a daaaaangerous reversal in roles. No wonder 2 of their child army (that we know of) have suffered failures in the sanctity of their marriages. [\sarcasm]

[MamaJunebug]

1 hour ago, VVV said:

There are a lot of horrible people in churches. Not all of them are fundy.

So sadly true. My membership was once at a congregation which years earlier had seen its number of members halved (literally) into two groups over support/criticism of the pastor. I arrived years later and the situations were still bad. Bitterness on both sides, nobody could let it drop. The pastor did well, continued to receive a nice salary & benefits. I don't have the answer. Well, yeah I do (for me): don't make church central to your life. God as the center, yes; the congregation and staff and sanctuary, no. 

[ChunkyBarbie]

About 25 years ago, I think, there was a big fight over a pastor in one of the churches in my town.  People took sides, and half the congregation left and started a new church. One of my friend's family was basically split in two, 25 years later and people still don't speak. It is ridiculous. 

[fundiefan]

5 hours ago, refugee said:

We were never into Gothard, never went to his seminars, were semi-shunned by ATI families (they would associate with us, for example in a homeschool support group, but they were always standoffish), but I remember sitting in a homeschool conference being told by VF types (maybe even the Tool himself) that the goal was to be free of worldly encumbrances. There was "biblical" teaching on owing nothing to nobody, that debt was a form of slavery and a goal for every christian ought to be getting debt-free. (Maybe a little Dave Ramsey influence there? or did he just find an already-primed audience to feed off of?) So instead of sending your kids to college, why not put away savings toward your sons' home downpayments so they can start their marriages on their way to owning their own homes, not pissing away their earnings on rent. And if you could manage to give your sons a home that's free-and-clear, that would be even better.

Of course, the people preaching this and earning conference fees were much wealthier than the bulk of the crowd listening to their spiel. If you're a lawyer or doctor or engineer, maybe you could make it work. An auto mechanic trying to support a wife and six kids? Not so much.

ETA: And the Vision Forum booth (and most of the booths at the homeschooling conferences) took credit cards. So they didn't mind you going into debt buying their materials.

One funny (well, not so funny) anecdote was a friend who told me that the VF booth people would not talk to the women with questions. They'd sell stuff to them, ring up purchases politely, but they would not engage in conversation. They talked to her husband, but not to her.

I have always said that. The Internet is full of evidence of that very fact. Multitudes of not so financially well off families trying to live their lives like the ones making money off  - - - them. "Sure, VF, I''ll empty my savings to pay you so I can attend a conference or daughters event or dress up party - I can't pay my rent or properly feed my ten kids or buy beds for them but you are giving us your wisdom, so here." 

Whether it's VF, ATI, NCFIC or any other hack using religion to be hypocrites, the number of people getting sucked in is astounding. I always thought it had to be insecurity that led people to cults; not stupidity or ignorance, but insecurity about their beliefs/religion/god/whatever. I'm not so sure after years of seeing these cults/groups make millions while people continue to give them money while having nothing for themselves. There has to be some reason, I just can't grasp any. 

When I was getting divorced several friends recommended "Eat, Pray, Love" to me. They said it changed their lives and goals and outlook. I read half of it and threw it away. I saw no way that a woman traveling the world for a year related to me, my life, my situation. Great, she had the means to travel away her misery. The majority of people cannot just leave life for a year and I couldn't get past that. 

I don't think I am smarter than anyone, which is why I can't figure out the reasoning behind being sucked in. 

Maybe it's that I'm more cynical and less trusting? But, really, people. If you can't afford to live like your idols, but pay them money to tell you how to live, you are part of the problem.

[FeministShrew]

4 hours ago, EmiGirl said:

 

I am somewhat happy to report that there are a few SBC churches who have recently ordained women pastors.

Wow! Every SB church around here that dared ordained a woman has been kicked out of the South Carolina Convention.

[Soulhuntress]

56 minutes ago, fundiefan said:

I have always said that. The Internet is full of evidence of that very fact. Multitudes of not so financially well off families trying to live their lives like the ones making money off  - - - them. "Sure, VF, I''ll empty my savings to pay you so I can attend a conference or daughters event or dress up party - I can't pay my rent or properly feed my ten kids or buy beds for them but you are giving us your wisdom, so here." 

Whether it's VF, ATI, NCFIC or any other hack using religion to be hypocrites, the number of people getting sucked in is astounding. I always thought it had to be insecurity that led people to cults; not stupidity or ignorance, but insecurity about their beliefs/religion/god/whatever. I'm not so sure after years of seeing these cults/groups make millions while people continue to give them money while having nothing for themselves. There has to be some reason, I just can't grasp any. 

When I was getting divorced several friends recommended "Eat, Pray, Love" to me. They said it changed their lives and goals and outlook. I read half of it and threw it away. I saw no way that a woman traveling the world for a year related to me, my life, my situation. Great, she had the means to travel away her misery. The majority of people cannot just leave life for a year and I couldn't get past that. 

I don't think I am smarter than anyone, which is why I can't figure out the reasoning behind being sucked in. 

Maybe it's that I'm more cynical and less trusting? But, really, people. If you can't afford to live like your idols, but pay them money to tell you how to live, you are part of the problem.

Affinity fraud.  And the hacks mean you don't have to focus on stuff falling apart in your real life.  Same logic making people Scientologists.

[Bethella]

4 hours ago, refugee said:

Someone else was just speculating on how fundie lifestyle can set things up for the father to be alienated from the children. It made sense, something I hadn't thought about before. The comment quoted here sparked a further thought--was Peter molded into an arrogant bully by fundie attitudes and teachings? Is he the firstborn son, the one who gets a double portion of the inheritance? Was he perhaps the Crown Prince in his family (which makes me think of what some have said about Josh Duggar)?

3 hours ago, DomWackTroll said:

Here is a 1995 newspaper article on the Bradricks, and it seems that Peter is the second son (after Andy) in a family of four boys and five girls. God, what I wouldn't give to see the long-gone photos that accompanied this!

http://web.kitsapsun.com/archive/1995/02-11/304200_bradricks_raising_godly_childre.html

I don't remember where I found the information but I have that Peter was the 7th child and 2nd son out of 9 children. 

[MamaJunebug]

48 minutes ago, Soulhuntress said:

Affinity fraud.  And the hacks mean you don't have to focus on stuff falling apart in your real life.  Same logic making people Scientologists.

I had not heard of affinity fraud but it explains a lot -- if not investments, then sales generally. Affinity fraud

39 minutes ago, Bethella said:

I don't remember where I found the information but I have that Peter was the 7th child and 2nd son out of 9 children. 

Not according to the 1995 article. Wonder who fibbed. Fibbing is so widespread...

[Bethella]

1 minute ago, MamaJunebug said:

Not according to the 1995 article. Wonder who fibbed. Fibbing is so widespread...

I don't see anything in the 1995 article that contradicts that. The quotes that mention the kids and specific ages:

Quote

Andy, the oldest

their nine children, ranging from 5 to 24

Susan Bradrick helps her son Stephen, 5, with his studies in the Bradricks' Port Orchard homeschool, which serves their nine children. Bradrick's other sons, Peter, 12, far left, and Phillip, 9, also remain occupied with homeschool.

I have:

Andy, born about 1971

Betsy

Katherine Emily

Kristen

Cecily, born 1978

Amy Ellen

Peter David, bout about 1983

Philip, born about 1986

Stephen, born 1989

[DomWackTroll]

11 minutes ago, MamaJunebug said:

Not according to the 1995 article. Wonder who fibbed. Fibbing is so widespread...

Actually, wouldn't both the article and Bethella's info support the birth order being: Andy, then 5 daughters, then Peter, then Phillip, then Stephen? 

If so, can you imagine how coddled and spoiled Peter must have been? Finally, another son! 

ETA: We posted at the same time, @Bethella!

[Hane]

2 hours ago, ChunkyBarbie said:

About 25 years ago, I think, there was a big fight over a pastor in one of the churches in my town.  People took sides, and half the congregation left and started a new church. One of my friend's family was basically split in two, 25 years later and people still don't speak. It is ridiculous. 

This happened to the Baptist (American Baptist Convention, so fairly moderate) church my paternal grandparents helped found back in the 1920s. The organist (a notorious gossip--my mom told me never to send my child to her for piano lessons, though the woman was gifted) got ticked off at the new pastor over some ridiculous minor thing, so she left in a huff, taking half the congregation with her to a different Baptist church in town. The little church folded.

[andrew]

On 3/20/2017 at 7:01 AM, Clementine said:

I just had to check the distance between Washington and North Carolina and it is approximately 3660 kilometers / 2274 miles. For reference, that is about the same distance as from Stockholm to Teheran.

I feel really sorry for their kids who will more or less grow up without their father. This is just a really sad situtation.

In the Parenting plan document it says that the counseling, in case of a dispute, is Craig Houston, Westside Baptist Church. Peter also wanted the court documents to be e-mailed to an adress that ends with "bibledirectionforlife". I googled the adress and it goes to the same baptist church: http://www.bibledirectionforlife.com/

Is that Peter's new church and does it have any connections to VF of NCFIC?

What if you asked an imaginary person who knew these characters, if hiPeter's new church and church leader had any connection to VF or NCFIC?

This is how I imagine a response from someone who knows them might be: 

You're kidding! These folks are all so interconnected that it's pitiful. At least with NCFIC.  Almost seem incestuous in a weird way. The pastor got his start with the Bradricks some time back and after leaving a church under odd circumstances came to Westside Baptist Church where he began what he called (in a telephone interview with Scottie) a '5 year program'  to eliminate ungodly practices.

Oh trust me the leader is in tight with Scottie and NCFIC and would likely be with Doug Phillips if he was still OK. When I warned him about Scott Brown he said he was a one of the 'godliest men' he ever met. Although this may say more about Craig's judgement than Scott's integrity.  JK!!

Eventually the church was divided over Calvinism and Scott Brown's group, the NCFIC,  was imported full force. God is still working at WSBC but not in the way a person would typically hope. Pray for them all. Lovely folks inordinately hungry for a powerful shepherd. They for sure got that!!  He is big, real big, on Scotties no gossip rule and won't keep appointments if he knows it's someone who disagrees with him. If you go to the NCFIC site you will likely find the pastor featured there. The radio interview is on the NCFIC blog. The pastor also employs books and teachings from Douglas Wilson. If you study the history of these men you will find they spring from conflict or division. Naturally, to them, the conflict is always another's fault.

I wrote about this at Jens Gems as my family was coming out of the fellowship. We were at the Bradrick house church for no little time. Certainly enough to warn Craig about them when they came. I was scolded for that. Sadly it turned out to be such a mess. So sad. Naturally we (and esp. me) were and are shunned for the most part. It is always in a cool polite way but it is obviously there. Saw one of his daughters at a Pro-Life event and she would not say hello. Just so sad. 

Craig's 5 year program wreaked havoc. The church should have listened more closely to the congregants who came up from Riverside Baptist to warn them. All water under the bridge now; two churches suffering from or under the practices of the NCFIC and the Patriarchal movement. I will say, as I have before, that I have no credentials to say these things other than watching the events unfold.  I am a wretched and poor sinner saved by God's grace. If anyone wants they can smear my reputation. But my own immorality does not affect the truth of these facts and my salvation demands that I share the truth about these dangerous leaders. They are beguiling many with the promises of legalism. 

[Pastors Daughter]

Welcome @andrew     Thank you for adding your insight, and I am so sorry you were hurt in this process. Since you attended the Bradrick house church, have you spent time around Peter or was that after he had moved to Texas? Especially in light of Peter and Kelly's divorce, I'm sure you must be very interested in what happened.

[DomWackTroll]

@andrew, anything you could tell about Michael and Susan would be great, too. What did their parenting look like up close? How did they treat their daughters in comparison to their sons? TIA!

[andrew]

51 minutes ago, Pastors Daughter said:

Welcome @andrew     Thank you for adding your insight, and I am so sorry you were hurt in this process. Since you attended the Bradrick house church, have you spent time around Peter or was that after he had moved to Texas? Especially in light of Peter and Kelly's divorce, I'm sure you must be very interested in what happened.

Our time with them was a when Peter was about 9 years of age. They had moved from Texas to Washington. Sad memories of hurting folks. We are still in touch with some of them. It took 2 years to get back into a 'regular' church because we'd been taught they were all wrong. It was very convincing. When the M & S Bradrick migrated to WSB I warned the leadership but was rebuffed. Now the church is dealing with the baggage. I am only interested in that it seems patriarchal fellowships seem to attract a certain type of personality that  migrates towards moral sins. I know I did. I believe many of the adherents are likely good church people some of whom may be saved but many are just trying to live by the law and are pretty miserable in the journey. All are precious to Jesus!

 

20 minutes ago, DomWackTroll said:

@andrew, anything you could tell about Michael and Susan would be great, too. What did their parenting look like up close? How did they treat their daughters in comparison to their sons? TIA!

The Bradrick family is a pretty closed and protective group. It seems odd but not really much, when I realized that even though we were supposed to be following the male leadership that Susan held a pretty tight leash on things. As to how they parented just read one of the books add a nice nasty mean fleshy spirit and you will have the law inspired discipline techniques employed by all tyrants no matter what their last name is. I am afraid I cannot report any 'juicy' stories without recalling how screwed up we all were. The Bradrick's are bad news not just for those that have placed themselves under their influence but they are just bad news all the way around. Like the lady at the well they can talk doctrine and practice all day long. God has brrought them to this place and I hope they learn true repentance from it. I told their church leader at WSB that they have never told any of the folks we knew that they were sorry for all the damage they did. And they did have the chance:  there were two families at WSB that knew them well enough to have been hurt by them. No apology. To others I have called. No apology.

I hope and prayer for them and me is that we bear a more clear image of Christ.

[MamaJunebug]

3 hours ago, DomWackTroll said:

Actually, wouldn't both the article and Bethella's info support the birth order being: Andy, then 5 daughters, then Peter, then Phillip, then Stephen? 

If so, can you imagine how coddled and spoiled Peter must have been? Finally, another son! 

ETA: We posted at the same time, @Bethella!

Well, my bad!! I'm sorry. Don't trust me with maths. Ever. Seriously. 

[refugee]

On 3/20/2017 at 9:03 PM, Chicken bones said:

The only thing I can focus on is that Peter still has a gigantically wide stance for no real reason in that picture.

Chafing undies, perhaps?

When I see those wide stances, I think their underwear is too tight, or they want people to think their underwear is too tight, because they're so "well endowed".

I mean... honestly. These guys.

Or it's a big DPIAT joke, where he started standing with his feet shoulder-width apart, and noticed the young guys copying him, so for a gas he kept moving his feet further and further apart, getting a kick out of watching the interns try to keep up. And they took it seriously.

Kind of like that anecdote about cutting the end of the ham off before baking it...

[hoipolloi]

4 hours ago, andrew said:

As to how they parented just read one of the books add a nice nasty mean fleshy spirit and you will have the law inspired discipline techniques employed by all tyrants no matter what their last name is.

As we suspected, though there's no satisfaction in reading this. What vile human beings they are. 

@andrew - thank you for stopping by to share your insights. I'm sorry you & your family were subjected to so much abuse because that's what it was. 

 

[andrew]

1 hour ago, hoipolloi said:

As we suspected, though there's no satisfaction in reading this. What vile human beings they are. 

@andrew - thank you for stopping by to share your insights. I'm sorry you & your family were subjected to so much abuse because that's what it was. 

 

Oh that the problem was identified by a name or by a person. It is sad that all of us are so capable of what the B's have done. WE have each done it but I hope on a smaller scale. I never split a church or took over an organization so in a way I admire their power. Certainly they may have more notoriety than I but that is no glory on my part. I believe the B's are deceived and deceiving, spiritually lost. Just like I was. It is a sad and distressing thing to be lost in the very thing you'd hoped too for rescue. Not a new problem;  Jesus told his 'religious'  folks, "Search the scriptures, for in them you think you have life; and they are they which teach of me."  Many of us in the church are searching for and relying on someone or something else to get us over the finish line. It don't work! Only Jesus. Only He can take a sinner and set them free. PTL I am free! My hope and prayer for all locked into the Satan's lies is that they might be free. Why would you want to be in any cult? Even if it sounded 'christian'.  They are deceived. The B's sound very 'christian' but while historically the fruit of the spirit has not been noted (peace, love, that sort of stuff) the fruit of the flesh has and is coming home to roost. One son in law a pedo, now, perhaps two,  while some are still unmarried; captures of vain law laced teachings that do not save. Teachings that snare. Teachings that divide and subtract and never multiply or add to the body of Christ. That is the 'religion' of the NCFIC, the VF and others of their ilk. While they were raising Godly children in an ungodly age they forgot the variable of the human heart and seem to have lost what they'd hoped to gain through practices and teachings that are divisive.

In 2006 the Fundamental Baptist Fellowship International said Family Integrated Church practices were ‘errant and schismatic.’ They pretty much sum it up:

• It encourages schism in the local church bodies by encouraging its adherents to change the theology and philosophy of the churches of which they are members.

• It does violence to local church authority, calling on local church members to leave their churches when the church does not bow to the philosophical demands of the movement.

• It espouses an ecclesiology based upon the family that is not based upon the New Testament but rather is an adaptation of Old Testament patriarchy.

• It falsely lays the claim that the destruction of the family in the U.S. is solely the fault of age-graded ministries in local churches. We contend that this is a simplistic and therefore false accusation.

• It espouses a postmillennial theology that is contradictory to a dispensational understanding of Scripture.

• It is oddly inclusive, basing fellowship on a particular philosophy of ministry rather than on the great fundamentals of the faith.

I do not say that anyone involved in the NCFIC is lacking salvation. Salvation does not hinge on these things singularly but the efficacy of the salvation message can be clouded by them, the Christian walk can be hindered by them and unity will certainly suffer from them. 

Look to Jesus.

[Palimpsest]

Thanks, @andrew, for your insights.  To go back to your first post:

10 hours ago, andrew said:

We are still in touch with some of them. It took 2 years to get back into a 'regular' church because we'd been taught they were all wrong. It was very convincing.

I am interested in the spiritual abuses allegedly perpetrated by some of these "family integrated"churches.  I'd be grateful if you could answer a few questions, if you can.  You may not know the answers to all.

Would you describe what you and your family went through as spiritual abuse?  

Is the Bradrick's church (Pastor Craig) a Covenant church?

If so, what are the terms of the covenant and how is church discipline enacted, to the best of your knowledge?

In your own case, were there attempts to discredit you when you changed churches, including refusal of letters of transfer describing you as members in good standing?  

Thanks.

[Howl]

14 hours ago, fundiefan said:

When I was getting divorced several friends recommended "Eat, Pray, Love" to me. They said it changed their lives and goals and outlook. I read half of it and threw it away. I saw no way that a woman traveling the world for a year related to me, my life, my situation. Great, she had the means to travel away her misery. The majority of people cannot just leave life for a year and I couldn't get past that. 

I hear ya on this.  Same with "do what you love, the money will follow" b.s.  I just can't anymore and hate having people who are "successful" held up as someone I should emulate or whose life recipe for whatever supposedly never fails.  When I had an unexpected split that was like a bomb going off in my life, I can't tell you how many people said some variation of, "Well X went to acupuncture school and is now married to fabulous handsome successful wonderful Y and has a perfect life, so better go to acupuncture school."

These days  I just get  snuggle up and get all comfy with my idiosyncrasies and it's all good. 

[Howl]

5 hours ago, andrew said:

While they were raising Godly children in an ungodly age they forgot the variable of the human heart and seem to have lost what they'd hoped to gain through practices and teachings that are divisive.

You have beautifully expressed the crux issue for all of the damage done by legalistic/patriarchal beliefs. Everything is from the neck up, bypassing the naturally inclusive heart-centered practices of tenderness and compassion. 

[Pastors Daughter]

5 hours ago, andrew said:

I do not say that anyone involved in the NCFIC is lacking salvation. Salvation does not hinge on these things singularly but the efficacy of the salvation message can be clouded by them, the Christian walk can be hindered by them and unity will certainly suffer from them. 

Look to Jesus.

 

30 minutes ago, Howl said:

You have beautifully expressed the crux issue for all of the damage done by legalistic/patriarchal beliefs. Everything is from the neck up, bypassing the naturally inclusive heart-centered practices of tenderness and compassion. 

Beautifully expressed indeed. Thank you, Andrew, for such thoughtful reflection of what man-centered worship is.

Look to Jesus.

[GenerationCedarchip]

13 hours ago, andrew said:

 

You're kidding! These folks are all so interconnected that it's pitiful. At least with NCFIC.  .....(NOTE: clipped a lot of the text)

All water under the bridge now; two churches suffering from or under the practices of the NCFIC and the Patriarchal movement. 

I just had a question.  I don't attend an NCFIC church, but I have noticed that in recent years the idea that children should be welcome in services and families should be encouraged to worship together is one that has become popular even among churches that are not technically members of the NCFIC.  

I go to a church that has family-integrated worship but is not formally affiliated with NCFIC and I was just curious - what sets churches in the NCFIC apart?  Is there something distinctive in their theology? I know it's kind of a basic question, but I was just trying to understand.  I come from a presbyterian tradition, so while I know some reformed baptists and have heard a few speak, I'm less familiar with them than with the folks on the Presby side of reformed-dom.