Jinger and Jeremy: She's in Shorts?!

[colors_outside15]

@Georgiana, thanks for writing all of that - it was super helpful. 

"If your partner says "I don't like that dress" and that effectively means "You cannot wear that dress" OR you feel that you do not have the CHOICE to wear or do something your partner does not like, that is unhealthy." I feel like this about hair and makeup most of the time, and I know that going out is not a choice whereas sometimes I would like to stay in and have a quiet evening. I'll have to think a lot about what to do from here (and talk to my therapist!). I wish I had learned all of this growing up.

[Georgiana]

3 minutes ago, colors_outside15 said:

@Georgiana, thanks for writing all of that - it was super helpful. 

"If your partner says "I don't like that dress" and that effectively means "You cannot wear that dress" OR you feel that you do not have the CHOICE to wear or do something your partner does not like, that is unhealthy." I feel like this about hair and makeup most of the time, and I know that going out is not a choice whereas sometimes I would like to stay in and have a quiet evening. I'll have to think a lot about what to do from here (and talk to my therapist!). I wish I had learned all of this growing up.

Good luck!  

Another good rule of thumb is: there's nothing wrong with saying yes, so long as you have the option to say no.  

You should always, always, ALWAYS have the option to say "No".  If you don't feel like you do, this is a major red flag that it is very important to address: for both your happiness AND your safety.  

You are special, unique, and important.  We need you to keep yourself safe.  Always.

[Tatar-tot]

I have been watching Jeremy and Jinger trying to make heads or tails of this "courtship" and "marriage."  A few observations:

1.   If you go back to the episode where the parents meet (not sure if Michele was there) it is evident that the in-laws were not going to become besties and go camping together at Camp Sandy with Jim-Bob.

2.  I thought it was telling that the wedding was held in the Chapel of a college campus.   I view this as neutral territory where neither team has home court advantage.   It also sends a message about higher education.  

3.   Jeremy's dad officiated.  His dad controled the altar and the vows the couple exchanged.  There was no crazy quiverful vows of go forth and have a zillion kids.

4.   For the holidays Jeremy and Jinger high tailed it to his parents home to celebrate.   I was really surprised by this and found it quite telling.   It is probably the first time Jinger was away from her family for a major holiday.   For Jinger to go along with this, to me, says a lot about what she wants in her future.

5.   I would not be surprised if Jinger is on birth control pills.  I am sure Jeremy is well versed in birth control.   Jinger could have also talked to Jeremy's mom about this too.   Deep in my heart I hope she is although it could go either way.  Ideally they would have a year or two when they can focus on their relationship and the church Jeremy is establishing.    But given this is a Duggar offspring the chances are slim.

6.   Jinger always hit me as the one least satisfied with the 19 siblings.   I think her photography was her way of removing herself from the lunacy but appear to be going with the flow.   I think Sarah Maxwell employs the same technique.  

Of all the relationships I think this one has the greatest odds of being "normal." The thing that sets it apart is that Jeremy is very close to his parents.   I don't see Jeremy EVER reporting to Jim Bob because of loyalty or economic necessity.  

It will be interesting to see how the relationship moves forward.  

 

[Kak]

1 hour ago, Pukingpearl said:

I can relate in that I am pretty easy going and easy to please while my spouse is somewhat particular, so a lot of times I truly don't care where we eat or what we do on a Saturday afternoon. 

Me too! My husband is "somewhat particular" (ahem) and I'm easy going. It's not submissive, but then my husband doesn't ever try to control me, he likes control of what he does, and I'm usually OK with that. When I care I really care, which can cause disagreement sometimes. But that's fine. 

[HarleyQuinn]

1 hour ago, Tatar-tot said:

I have been watching Jeremy and Jinger trying to make heads or tails of this "courtship" and "marriage."  A few observations:

1.   If you go back to the episode where the parents meet (not sure if Michele was there) it is evident that the in-laws were not going to become besties and go camping together at Camp Sandy with Jim-Bob.

2.  I thought it was telling that the wedding was held in the Chapel of a college campus.   I view this as neutral territory where neither team has home court advantage.   It also sends a message about higher education.  

3.   Jeremy's dad officiated.  His dad controled the altar and the vows the couple exchanged.  There was no crazy quiverful vows of go forth and have a zillion kids.

4.   For the holidays Jeremy and Jinger high tailed it to his parents home to celebrate.   I was really surprised by this and found it quite telling.   It is probably the first time Jinger was away from her family for a major holiday.   For Jinger to go along with this, to me, says a lot about what she wants in her future.

5.   I would not be surprised if Jinger is on birth control pills.  I am sure Jeremy is well versed in birth control.   Jinger could have also talked to Jeremy's mom about this too.   Deep in my heart I hope she is although it could go either way.  Ideally they would have a year or two when they can focus on their relationship and the church Jeremy is establishing.    But given this is a Duggar offspring the chances are slim.

6.   Jinger always hit me as the one least satisfied with the 19 siblings.   I think her photography was her way of removing herself from the lunacy but appear to be going with the flow.   I think Sarah Maxwell employs the same technique.  

Of all the relationships I think this one has the greatest odds of being "normal." The thing that sets it apart is that Jeremy is very close to his parents.   I don't see Jeremy EVER reporting to Jim Bob because of loyalty or economic necessity.  

It will be interesting to see how the relationship moves forward.  

 

To counter,

1) - 100% agree 

2) It could be that it was the only place to get married in such a short amount of time? I don't think the Duggars take issue using college services (like going to sport games) It still doesn't mean any offspring will for sure go to college.

3) Are we sure TLC didn't edit out any of the "Headship" comments like they did for every wedding after Joshley and Anna?

4) I want that to be telling, but Jinger is a follower. She follows her headship and probably doesn't argue. 

5) I will never believe a Duggar is on birth control until one of them comes out and says it. Jeremy is just as gross as the Duggars when it comes to his religion. He probably feels the same way they do about birth control now that he has a wife. 

6) I do agree Jinger is one of the least satisfied ones. 

[season of life]

These people are so ridiculously strict with their beliefs that I am never exactly sure how the married couples behave within the privacy of their homes. I will only believe a Duggar is using contraceptives if they say it flat out.

[ScorpiousMalfoy]

2 hours ago, Tatar-tot said:

5.   I would not be surprised if Jinger is on birth control pills.  I am sure Jeremy is well versed in birth control.   Jinger could have also talked to Jeremy's mom about this too.   Deep in my heart I hope she is although it could go either way.  Ideally they would have a year or two when they can focus on their relationship and the church Jeremy is establishing.    But given this is a Duggar offspring the chances are slim.

 

Hmmm, I could see NFP (more likely) or condoms. Pill is like the devil for JB&M and they believe it causes miscarriage (Caleb etc). So with the amount of brain-washing that Jinge's must've gotten about hormonal BC I somehow don't see them using that. But ofc, there's no way of finding out and I doubt they will ever tell (and they shouldn't, stop selling out your lives on TV people!!!!)

[unicorncastle]

i think it's important to be on the same page as somebody you're in a relationship with. for instance, i wouldn't walk out the door with a short skirt if my husband said he would prefer i wouldn't wear it, and he would do the same for me. it's not being submissive, it's being respectful.

if you're a low cut blouse all the time kinda gal and your man wants you to be in button up shirt and you're having issues everytime you go to walk out the door, you probably have some bigger issues that could indicate you're not in the right relationship.


i'm not wording this properly because it's 3:43am, but i'm hoping others are able to catch my drift.

I agree with this. I'm sitting here wondering what type of women are on the board because none of them seem to take their spouses opinions into consideration when living their lives. There are certain things my wife and I both do because the other person does or does not like it. I always thought it was considered common curtesy.

[jacduggar]

1 hour ago, HarleyQuinn said:

To counter,

1) - 100% agree 

2) It could be that it was the only place to get married in such a short amount of time? I don't think the Duggars take issue using college services (like going to sport games) It still doesn't mean any offspring will for sure go to college.

3) Are we sure TLC didn't edit out any of the "Headship" comments like they did for every wedding after Joshley and Anna?

4) I want that to be telling, but Jinger is a follower. She follows her headship and probably doesn't argue. 

5) I will never believe a Duggar is on birth control until one of them comes out and says it. Jeremy is just as gross as the Duggars when it comes to his religion. He probably feels the same way they do about birth control now that he has a wife. 

6) I do agree Jinger is one of the least satisfied ones. 

Agree with everything you said.

I highly doubt they are using NFP because I don't think either one of them is well versed in the female cycle. A lot of people tend to run to the Duggars practicing NFP like they would even know what that means. Jeremy going to college doesn't mean he understands the female cycle, and I sincerely doubt Jinger knows anything about it at all. 

I never think a Duggars is using birth control of any kind. I've said this a lot on here before but getting pregnant is actually a pretty delicate art, and women don't have a super great chance of it happening right away. On average it takes someone who is actively trying longer than 6 months to conceive. The fact that they've been married for a little bit and aren't pregnant is not a tell - at all. 

Its sad. Jinger clearly does not like having a mega family but that's the life she's been conditioned to have, and she probably figures that she just has to deal with it. 

[Daisy0322]

I couldn't see jinger on birth control either. I also see it being suspicious if they take too long to get her knocked up lol I'm think they'll have one quickly then use NFP and/or condoms to try and spread the rest out. I think They'd probably end  with 5-7 kids that way. 

[wikinggirl]

3 hours ago, nausicaa said:

I'm super tall and have strangely shaped hips (I think) and just find it so much easier to find skirts that fit me, and so over the years became nearly exclusively skirts only at work. 

And second to the person who said they are easier in the winter. Knit tights with a wool skirt is so much warmer than a pair of pants, and doesn't get wet and dirty from the walk through the snow piles into the office. 

I agree! 

I haven't worn pants in over ten years, and it's not a problem in the winter. If it's really cold, like -15 C / 5 F I just put on some wool bloomers (I don't know if it is a proper english word for them, it's like long underwear in wool) to cover my thighs. 

For chafing in the summer I either do bike shorts or something like body glide. 

[BrandoBarks]

 

2 hours ago, Tatar-tot said:

I have been watching Jeremy and Jinger trying to make heads or tails of this "courtship" and "marriage."  A few observations:

1.   If you go back to the episode where the parents meet (not sure if Michele was there) it is evident that the in-laws were not going to become besties and go camping together at Camp Sandy with Jim-Bob.

2.  I thought it was telling that the wedding was held in the Chapel of a college campus.   I view this as neutral territory where neither team has home court advantage.   It also sends a message about higher education.  

3.   Jeremy's dad officiated.  His dad controled the altar and the vows the couple exchanged.  There was no crazy quiverful vows of go forth and have a zillion kids.

4.   For the holidays Jeremy and Jinger high tailed it to his parents home to celebrate.   I was really surprised by this and found it quite telling.   It is probably the first time Jinger was away from her family for a major holiday.   For Jinger to go along with this, to me, says a lot about what she wants in her future.

5.   I would not be surprised if Jinger is on birth control pills.  I am sure Jeremy is well versed in birth control.   Jinger could have also talked to Jeremy's mom about this too.   Deep in my heart I hope she is although it could go either way.  Ideally they would have a year or two when they can focus on their relationship and the church Jeremy is establishing.    But given this is a Duggar offspring the chances are slim.

6.   Jinger always hit me as the one least satisfied with the 19 siblings.   I think her photography was her way of removing herself from the lunacy but appear to be going with the flow.   I think Sarah Maxwell employs the same technique.  

Of all the relationships I think this one has the greatest odds of being "normal." The thing that sets it apart is that Jeremy is very close to his parents.   I don't see Jeremy EVER reporting to Jim Bob because of loyalty or economic necessity.  

It will be interesting to see how the relationship moves forward.  

 

In my opinion, from what I saw on the show or online, he is a very controlling person. I can't get over the fact why (even if he converted) a college educated, "love experienced" person who travelled and met lots of different people would marry a woman who was raised with fundamentalist (+ Duggar) values. To me, he looked specifically for someone he could easily controll and for a meek (his own words) helpmeet. Pure speculation on my side, Jinger also serves as an attraction to his new church. All this is very sad and I really don't think that she has not a mind of her own. But I think that her being a follower is a bigger part of her character. Maybe Jeremys values differ in some ways from the Duggars' (wearing shorts) but birth controll seems too unlikely to me...

[IReallyAmHopewell]

2 hours ago, Tatar-tot said:

I have been watching Jeremy and Jinger trying to make heads or tails of this "courtship" and "marriage."  A few observations:

1.   If you go back to the episode where the parents meet (not sure if Michele was there) it is evident that the in-laws were not going to become besties and go camping together at Camp Sandy with Jim-Bob.

2.  I thought it was telling that the wedding was held in the Chapel of a college campus.   I view this as neutral territory where neither team has home court advantage.   It also sends a message about higher education.  

3.   Jeremy's dad officiated.  His dad controled the altar and the vows the couple exchanged.  There was no crazy quiverful vows of go forth and have a zillion kids.

4.   For the holidays Jeremy and Jinger high tailed it to his parents home to celebrate.   I was really surprised by this and found it quite telling.   It is probably the first time Jinger was away from her family for a major holiday.   For Jinger to go along with this, to me, says a lot about what she wants in her future.

5.   I would not be surprised if Jinger is on birth control pills.  I am sure Jeremy is well versed in birth control.   Jinger could have also talked to Jeremy's mom about this too.   Deep in my heart I hope she is although it could go either way.  Ideally they would have a year or two when they can focus on their relationship and the church Jeremy is establishing.    But given this is a Duggar offspring the chances are slim.

6.   Jinger always hit me as the one least satisfied with the 19 siblings.   I think her photography was her way of removing herself from the lunacy but appear to be going with the flow.   I think Sarah Maxwell employs the same technique.  

Of all the relationships I think this one has the greatest odds of being "normal." The thing that sets it apart is that Jeremy is very close to his parents.   I don't see Jeremy EVER reporting to Jim Bob because of loyalty or economic necessity.  

It will be interesting to see how the relationship moves forward.  

 

My take here:

 

1 I don't think his parents had ever heard of Bill Gothard

2. Na...to higher ed. Just a venue.

3.  Yeah on that, but Jinger would never have been allowed to marry him if Jeremy hadn't agreed on b.c.

4.  She's doing what hubby commanded

5.  No way, Jose

6. If only... it was a Gothard approved hobby and busineses. She made the best of what was available.

7.  Never say never....Derrick ring any bells?

 

I wish on most of these, but Jinger would not have been allowed any where near him if he didn't hold the same core belief on marriage, authority and b.c. Shorts are not forbidden by Gothard. Nor are pants. Just at events like Big Sandy when there is a dress code. If husband/Dad says they are fine then then they are. Ditto normal bathing suits--Anna's Mom wore a normal, if dated, swim suit at the beach with a normal cover up like anyone's Grandma would wear.

They will have kids the whole time the show is on. They will not "space" them naturally or anything else that normal people do. They will have sex and have kids and have sex and have kids. And soon they will joke about sex and about making more babies because this is a tv show. That 's all this family does. Hump like rabbits and give birth as often as possible--not as often as God allows.

 

[SassyPants]

3 hours ago, Tatar-tot said:

I have been watching Jeremy and Jinger trying to make heads or tails of this "courtship" and "marriage."  A few observations:

1.   If you go back to the episode where the parents meet (not sure if Michele was there) it is evident that the in-laws were not going to become besties and go camping together at Camp Sandy with Jim-Bob.

2.  I thought it was telling that the wedding was held in the Chapel of a college campus.   I view this as neutral territory where neither team has home court advantage.   It also sends a message about higher education.  

3.   Jeremy's dad officiated.  His dad controled the altar and the vows the couple exchanged.  There was no crazy quiverful vows of go forth and have a zillion kids.

4.   For the holidays Jeremy and Jinger high tailed it to his parents home to celebrate.   I was really surprised by this and found it quite telling.   It is probably the first time Jinger was away from her family for a major holiday.   For Jinger to go along with this, to me, says a lot about what she wants in her future.

5.   I would not be surprised if Jinger is on birth control pills.  I am sure Jeremy is well versed in birth control.   Jinger could have also talked to Jeremy's mom about this too.   Deep in my heart I hope she is although it could go either way.  Ideally they would have a year or two when they can focus on their relationship and the church Jeremy is establishing.    But given this is a Duggar offspring the chances are slim.

6.   Jinger always hit me as the one least satisfied with the 19 siblings.   I think her photography was her way of removing herself from the lunacy but appear to be going with the flow.   I think Sarah Maxwell employs the same technique.  

Of all the relationships I think this one has the greatest odds of being "normal." The thing that sets it apart is that Jeremy is very close to his parents.   I don't see Jeremy EVER reporting to Jim Bob because of loyalty or economic necessity.  

It will be interesting to see how the relationship moves forward.  

 

Maybe not BCPs, but  well honed and masterfully utilized natural family planning techniques.

I agree with the rest.

[MargaretElliott]

31 minutes ago, jacduggar said:

I highly doubt they are using NFP because I don't think either one of them is well versed in the female cycle.

Did you see the infamous calendar in the earlier 17 Kids and Counting episodes? Those girls knew way more about tracking cycles then than I do now 

I do speculate that they will have the smallest family, with a meager 5-7 kids. Large, but not a megafamily. Just based on Jinger's reactions when anyone has mentioned babies. She seemed alarmed, not excited. Perhaps that was because Derick was being creepy, though. Pills are probably out, but we will never know the specifics unless they directly address that.

[unicorncastle]

 
I wish on most of these, but Jinger would not have been allowed any where near him if he didn't hold the same core belief on marriage, authority and b.c. Shorts are not forbidden by Gothard. Nor are pants. Just at events like Big Sandy when there is a dress code. If husband/Dad says they are fine then then they are. Ditto normal bathing suits--Anna's Mom wore a normal, if dated, swim suit at the beach with a normal cover up like anyone's Grandma would wear.

 

I feel like perhaps Jermey knew what the requirements were and said what he had to say to be allowed to court/marry her. I don't think he's a crazy wackadoo like everyone else.

[mpheels]

I think Jeremy is arguably the smartest of the Duggar-husbands, and has the most "modern" worldly experience. At the very least, I think he has a better real-world understanding of people and human nature than Derrick or Ben. Keeping that in mind, he could be every bit as wacky as the others, but he knows how to keep it under wraps.

[singsingsing]

30 minutes ago, unicorncastle said:

I feel like perhaps Jermey knew what the requirements were and said what he had to say to be allowed to court/marry her. I don't think he's a crazy wackadoo like everyone else.

 

 

Yeah, no. Jeremy is a fundamentalist pastor. And I'm sorry, but actively seeking out a meek fundie girl and saying the right things to trick her/her dad into letting you marry her IS crazy wackadoo. I don't like Jeremy, but even I don't think he's as cold, calculating, malicious and creepy as that.

[nastyhobbitses]

4 hours ago, Georgiana said:

There's also a huge, HUGE difference between not liking something your significant other wears/does/etc. and not allowing your significant other to do/wear/etc certain things.

Power dynamics are important.

If my SO says he doesn't LIKE something, the ultimate power is still mine.  At the end of the day, it is my choice whether to continue wearing that thing or doing that thing, and I can weigh his preferences against mine.  And there's nothing wrong with choosing to defer to their preferences so long as you are weighing your needs as well.  I have no issues generally deferring to my SO if I don't really care on the matter, but I have had SOs who wanted me to change my hair, my running wardrobe, etc. to which I responded "Sucks".  I HATE having short hair and my comfort when running is my only priority, so I really don't care what anyone else thinks on the matter.  A random shirt?  How I leave my dishes in the sink?  No big deal.

But the Patriarchy has a warped power dynamic.  Many patriarchs control what the women under their umbrellas wear.  "Dad doesn't like it" or "Husband doesn't like it" often means "This is not allowed".  If your partner says "I don't like that dress" and that effectively means "You cannot wear that dress" OR you feel that you do not have the CHOICE to wear or do something your partner does not like, that is unhealthy.  

Couples CHOOSE to be all sorts of different levels of submissive/dominant/egalitarian.  There's really no RIGHT way that works for everyone because it's very dependent on the people involved.  But what ALL adults should have is agency and choice.  And in structures (like this one) that try to rob women of that, it can be hard to determine whether or not the line is being crossed.

SO MUCH THIS. I'm as feminist as they come, and I readily admit to having worn a dress or a shirt or a hairstyle more if a boyfriend said that he liked it or said it made me look pretty. But if I had a boyfriend (or girlfriend) who tried to tell me, implicitly or explicitly, that I cannot do or wear something because he/she doesn't "like" it, I'd seriously rethink the relationship. Or at least I hope I'd do that. It's totally OK to enjoy making your partner happy and doing things that you know they like in order to show that you care or to get them in the mood, but it should be your choice, and your choice alone, to do those things.

[socalrules]

1 hour ago, unicorncastle said:

 

 

I feel like perhaps Jermey knew what the requirements were and said what he had to say to be allowed to court/marry her. I don't think he's a crazy wackadoo like everyone else.

 

 

Why would Jeremy go out of his way to lie and pretend to meet the requirements for Jinger? For the stellar conversation? Meekness? Because she is "simple" as he called her? Jinger may be a nice, fundy woman but there is no reason for going to all that trouble for her. Educated, worldly, respectable men are not going to pretend to be something they are not so they can get with Jinger. It's like something out of a no longer fundy fantasy where liberal Prince Charming saves the poor girl from a lifetime of prayer closets and laundry rooms. Let's say Jeremy was just pretending, then he is a major asshole for lying to Jinger about who he is and what he believes. She may totally buy into the Duggar was of thinking and only want a man who does as well. It is pure assholery to lie to her. It's not cute or sweet or loving. It's a relationship based on a lie and Jinger doesn't deserve that.

[ValeryVal]

4 hours ago, Tatar-tot said:

5.   I would not be surprised if Jinger is on birth control pills.  I am sure Jeremy is well versed in birth control.   Jinger could have also talked to Jeremy's mom about this too.   Deep in my heart I hope she is although it could go either way.  Ideally they would have a year or two when they can focus on their relationship and the church Jeremy is establishing.    But given this is a Duggar offspring the chances are slim.

 

birth control pills?? not even Jeremy would allow that!

it is refreshing to see that Jinger is wearing "shorts" though

[luxfilia]

16 minutes ago, socalrules said:

Why would Jeremy go out of his way to lie and pretend to meet the requirements for Jinger? For the stellar conversation? Meekness? Because she is "simple" as he called her? Jinger may be a nice, fundy woman but there is no reason for going to all that trouble for her. Educated, worldly, respectable men are not going to pretend to be something they are not so they can get with Jinger. It's like something out of a no longer fundy fantasy where liberal Prince Charming saves the poor girl from a lifetime of prayer closets and laundry rooms. Let's say Jeremy was just pretending, then he is a major asshole for lying to Jinger about who he is and what he believes. She may totally buy into the Duggar was of thinking and only want a man who does as well. It is pure assholery to lie to her. It's not cute or sweet or loving. It's a relationship based on a lie and Jinger doesn't deserve that.

I actually know someone to whom this scenario happened (at least the way she tells it). She grew up in a way that many would definitely call "fundie," and she met a guy who went to church with her, said the "party line" type things, and then, upon marrying, immediately stopped attending church and was emotionally abuse (+ whole different lifestyle, drugs and all). They ended up getting divorced (and it wasn't what her church and family call a "scriptural" divorce, since there was no cheating) and PLOT TWIST she is now a female preacher (HUGE change for someone who grew up how she did).

[unicorncastle]

Yeah, no. Jeremy is a fundamentalist pastor. And I'm sorry, but actively seeking out a meek fundie girl and saying the right things to trick her/her dad into letting you marry her IS crazy wackadoo. I don't like Jeremy, but even I don't think he's as cold, calculating, malicious and creepy as that.

He's not a fundamentalist pastor. He is a nondenominational one.

[singsingsing]

Just now, unicorncastle said:

He's not a fundamentalist pastor. He is a nondenominational one.

'Fundamentalist' is not a denomination. He is a non-denominational fundamentalist pastor.

[ValeryVal]

2 hours ago, BrandoBarks said:

 

In my opinion, from what I saw on the show or online, he is a very controlling person. I can't get over the fact why (even if he converted) a college educated, "love experienced" person who travelled and met lots of different people would marry a woman who was raised with fundamentalist (+ Duggar) values. To me, he looked specifically for someone he could easily controll and for a meek (his own words) helpmeet. Pure speculation on my side, Jinger also serves as an attraction to his new church. All this is very sad and I really don't think that she has not a mind of her own. But I think that her being a follower is a bigger part of her character. Maybe Jeremys values differ in some ways from the Duggars' (wearing shorts) but birth controll seems too unlikely to me...

THIS! I agree with you 100%