Jill, Derick and Israel- Part 17

[season of life]

I don't care if someone has an abortion. It doesn't affect me and I know realistically some women will not be dissuaded from having an abortion just because it's illegal. I just don't have the emotional reaction others do when they hear that abortions should be an option and get bothered by it.

[ClaraOswin]

33 minutes ago, sophie10130 said:

Just to be detail oriented, from a medical standpoint, death is not when the heart stops beating. Death occurs when the brain ceases to function. If death occurred when the heart stopped beating, we would never administer CPR. We would just call them dead and let it be done. But we know that we can bring people back when their heart stops beating, so medically, that is not accurate. It is only after their heart has stopped beating and sending blood and oxygen to the brain for minutes that we can call the time of death because we know that the brain cannot survive that long without oxygen.

However, I'm not saying you can't believe that's when life starts. That is totally your prerogative. It's a very personal and emotional choice, and it's different for everyone.

 

I listened to a podcast recently about the date of viability, or the earliest date a baby can survive outside of the womb. I think at this point it is something like 23 weeks and 6 days. (And I think that's the name of the podcast. Radiolab.) In the podcast they go on and talk about how people think that should be the cutoff for abortions because the baby cannot survive without the mom so it's not considered living yet. But as our technology changes, we will be pushing that date back and back and back and how we shouldn't use that as a gauge because maybe some day it might be 6 weeks. Or two weeks. Or a fertilized egg.

But you need a beating heart to live, do you not? I mean...if you didn't, then CPR wouldn't be necessary to keep you alive.

If a woman goes in for an ultrasound and a fetal heartbeat cannot be detected...the baby is no longer living. I mean...there's really no other way to look at that is there?

I know that's apparently too simple and too easy but I don't really care. That's how I see it.

[sophie10130]

2 minutes ago, ClaraOswin said:

But you need a beating heart to live, do you not? I mean...if you didn't, then CPR wouldn't be necessary to keep you alive.

If a woman goes in for an ultrasound and a fetal heartbeat cannot be detected...the baby is no longer living. I mean...there's really no other way to look at that is there?

I know that's apparently too simple and too easy but I don't really care. That's how I see it.

No, that's totally fine. I'm not saying you shouldn't think of it like that. It's a personal choice and it's up to you! And I 100% support your decision in that. I really do. I think everyone should take a good hard look at what they consider "living." They might need to make a decision on it early in life (a woman who is pregnant) or at the end of a life (making decisions for someone or themselves on life support)

It's true that one cannot function without the other. Machines can pump blood but they cannot make the brain work. The reason why we use fetal heartbeat is because the brain cannot survive without oxygen and the heartbeat is something we can hear with an ultrasound--not so with brain wave detection. It might seem like a weird line. But it's important. You CAN live without a heartbeat. Not for very long, but you can. You cannot come back from being brain dead. At least, with what we know now. Who knows? That might change as technology gets better.

I know you are not pushing this view, but I have seen others push this view. That as soon as the baby has a heartbeat it's a fully fledged human because of the reasons you described. This reason is not medically accurate, so I don't think it should be used to push legislation. That's all I'm saying.

As for personal matters, it's totally up to you how you see life. Some people think the medical take is too, well, medical, and that life means more than just heartbeats and brain waves. And that's up to them. But I think it's important to look at the medical aspects of this when looking at creating laws. That's all.

[SportsgalAnnie]

So back to Duggar Snark... 

Does anyone think the Dullards will use the Derick Lightning story as a platform for their ministry ?

[nastyhobbitses]

23 hours ago, season of life said:

Jill recently wrote on her blog that Derick had been chatting with a friend when lightning struck nearby. She said they later realized had Derick not been talking to the friend, the lightning may have hit him.

And lo, God muttered to Himself, "damn, I missed."

[Bad Wolf]

1 hour ago, nastyhobbitses said:

And lo, God muttered to Himself, "damn, I missed."

Oh bad @nastyhobbitses.   Anyway, I saw a traffic accident today, and if I hadn't stopped to pet the dog, I would have been involved. Just like Derrick (and millions of others.)

[paulypepper]

I think I may have found a new career! (jk) Back in the days of drive in movies, my ex and I were enjoying a nice summer evening at a drive in when a thunderstorm appeared out of nowhere. As I grabbed the metal speaker hanging on the window as I was rolling it up, a bolt of lightning hit the speaker and the line not only severing the line to the speaker but causing my hand to be stuck to the speaker as a flash of fire (for better lack of words) consumed the area between the speaker and my face. My arm actually tingled for over a week.

So point is Derick,  nanny nanny boo boo I got hit and I'm still alive! Methinks I've got more to preach about than you...should I also tell the story of when I was robbed at gunpoint with said gun pressing into my chest enough to cause a bruise? Or maybe fighting esophageal cancer or even muscular atrophy?

I apologize everyone for going off half-cocked but for craps sake...just because there was lightning in the area Derick would or could have been hit?

Obviously I have many things to be thankful for, but there is no way I could be a grifter of any sort. I am happy to be alive and it just annoys me that these people think that anything that happens or doesn't happen to them makes them better than everyone else.

[ClaraOswin]

3 hours ago, Bad Wolf said:

Oh bad @nastyhobbitses.   Anyway, I saw a traffic accident today, and if I hadn't stopped to pet the dog, I would have been involved. Just like Derrick (and millions of others.)

There was a 1-car accident moments after we passed yesterday on our way home from Walmart. If hadn't made my husband wait for me to snatch up and amazon deal before leaving...we could have been involved. At least by Dillard logic.

[Arwen]

On 7/12/2016 at 5:10 PM, VelociRapture said:

Speaking only for myself:

I deeply mourned the early loss of our first pregnancy this winter. Logically, I knew it was a small bundle of cells that had no viability outside the womb. Emotionally, I felt the loss of the potential life and all it had promised. 

Note I said potential life. Because even in my deepest moments of grief I still realized my loss was not comparable to a stillbirth or the loss of a child born alive. 

I was told I should not get pregnant again. It does bad things to my body. We have two kids but we had always envisaged a third. I wasn't even pregnant, but I grieved for two years and only now am starting to feel somewhat better about my reality.

I don't know how everyone in this thread who has lost a pregnancy/child handled it. I don't think I could.  I'm just not that strong.  My heart goes out to you so, so much.

[Purrl]

12 hours ago, Incognito22 said:

The latest picture of Izzy balancing on the bumbo edge while reaching for the counter is special.  You can almost see what comes next.

Where is the photo? I checked their blog & IG and didn't see it. Why do you think they continue to post photos like this??

[ClaraOswin]

What Izzy is doing isn't too out of the ordinary really.  Not that that makes it safe. But it is common for kids to try to climb to reach things...which is why toddler proofing can be quite helpful. Hopefully these morons keep medications and cleaners out of reach. I don't trust their judgement, that's for sure.

 

 

[Toothfairy]

11 hours ago, ksgranola1 said:

I lost one at 20 weeks & what bothered me most was the cavalier attitude of my OB. I had bonded, felt movement, were all prepared, then came the "no heartbeat" news. We were devastated. But that wasn't even the worst of it. The OB said I would probably go to my due- date & then "dump it." his words. To make it worse, I continued to grow. Total strangers would come up to me & congratulate me. It wasn't like I could hide it. And now, 30 years later, I realized I could have had an induced labor or a D&E. But both my OB's were Catholic. Didn't conceive again for 5 years.

Lord. I'm sorry. Idiot doctor. I will never go to a Catholic hospital ever again! I too had a terrible experience with them.

[TuringMachine]

3 minutes ago, ClaraOswin said:

What Izzy is doing isn't too out of the ordinary really.  Not that that makes it safe. But it is common for kids to try to climb to reach things...which is why toddler proofing can be quite helpful. Hopefully these morons keep medications and cleaners out of reach. I don't trust their judgement, that's for sure.

I'm not bothered that Izzy is doing something not safe. Kids are kids. I'm bothered that they took a picture of it rather than stopping him from doing the unsafe thing.  And you know all the leghumpers are saying "well obviously someone is standing right there with the camera." Yes leghumpers, they are in a perfect position to pick him up and take him to the hospital after he gashes his head open on the counter.  It's just, if it were my kid, I would like to prevent the potential head gashing from happening in the first place.

[Toothfairy]

Not getting in the abortion debate cart. But I absolutely hate it when antichoicers and adoptive parents use their adopted child in the antichoice movement. Just because a child wasn't aborted doesn't mean she was going to be aborted. Back then during the baby scoop era  upper class women still aborted. They had safe abortions. Now a lot of women with unplanned pregnancies parent. Single motherhood is accepted. I had unplanned pregnancies. Unplanned doesn't mean unwanted. Abortion= termination of  pregnancy. Adoption= Termination of parental rights.  I hate it when the two are linked. 

13 minutes ago, ClaraOswin said:

What Izzy is doing isn't too out of the ordinary really.  Not that that makes it safe. But it is common for kids to try to climb to reach things...which is why toddler proofing can be quite helpful. Hopefully these morons keep medications and cleaners out of reach. I don't trust their judgement, that's for sure.

 

 

I hope he didn't fall. 

[nastyhobbitses]

2 hours ago, ClaraOswin said:

What Izzy is doing isn't too out of the ordinary really.  Not that that makes it safe. But it is common for kids to try to climb to reach things...which is why toddler proofing can be quite helpful. Hopefully these morons keep medications and cleaners out of reach. I don't trust their judgement, that's for sure.

 

 

"If I hadn't decided that the mirror I use to brush Derick's luscious hippie locks each morning was not clean enough to reveal his Godly countenance, Izzy would have chugged the bottle of Windex I usually leave just within his reach on the kitchen counter! The lord is so good at protecting our child!"

[Four is Enough]

I'm sitting here thinking that I'm the only mother on this forum who thinks that what Izzy is doing is completely natural. He's certainly learning that "if I stand on this, I can reach that" so... critical thinking! 

I'm hoping that all things that can harm him are out of reach, ok?

But if he falls and knocks his head on the kitchen counter, he'll either learn to push the bumbo a little closer, so he doesn't have to lean as far and tip over, OR, he'll learn, "Hmmm. maybe I shouldn't do that." Critical thinking!

One thing I learned by having Two around is: you can NOT completely baby proof a home from a determined child. 'Taint possible. He will explore and he will get into things.

We had a brick hearth. When Two was learning to crawl, he was fascinated by it. We never put bumpers around it, and he never got a concussion, or even bumped his head on it. 

[VelociRapture]

26 minutes ago, Four is Enough said:

I'm sitting here thinking that I'm the only mother on this forum who thinks that what Izzy is doing is completely natural. He's certainly learning that "if I stand on this, I can reach that" so... critical thinking! 

I'm hoping that all things that can harm him are out of reach, ok?

But if he falls and knocks his head on the kitchen counter, he'll either learn to push the bumbo a little closer, so he doesn't have to lean as far and tip over, OR, he'll learn, "Hmmm. maybe I shouldn't do that." Critical thinking!

One thing I learned by having Two around is: you can NOT completely baby proof a home from a determined child. 'Taint possible. He will explore and he will get into things.

We had a brick hearth. When Two was learning to crawl, he was fascinated by it. We never put bumpers around it, and he never got a concussion, or even bumped his head on it. 

I'm inclined to side with you on this one. We're expecting in January and are already discussing how to childproof our home. There are obvious things we'll do, but we don't intend to go crazy. Kids learn by doing and sometimes that means getting hurt in the process. We don't intend to be negligent, but we also don't want to bubble wrap our kid to the point that they can't move or touch anything either.

I mean, at the very least it's not a video of him on a blanket being told to stay and getting smacked every time he moves, right?

(They could still be blanket training him, but at least in this picture it appears he does have the ability to explore and learn.)

[HereticHick]

Some commenters think that there are Duggars in this pic from DangerouseCintralAmerica that Jill just posted. What do you think? I'm  not sure:

 

 

[brotherhusbandsgalore]

Lol, I was going to say the same thing. As long as he's not on a blanket, I'm happy The fact that they're taking pictures shows that they're paying more attention to Izzy than the lost girls ever got.

[MayMay1123]

why the hell is there still a bumbo around? i thought they were for babies who couldn't sit up on their own yet?

[JesSky03]

11 hours ago, Arwen said:

I was told I should not get pregnant again. It does bad things to my body. We have two kids but we had always envisaged a third. I wasn't even pregnant, but I grieved for two years and only now am starting to feel somewhat better about my reality.

I don't know how everyone in this thread who has lost a pregnancy/child handled it. I don't think I could.  I'm just not that strong.  My heart goes out to you so, so much.

My poor sister is dealing with this decision right now. She has PCOS and it took 2 losses and  years of fertility meds for her to finally carry a pregnancy to term. Then the baby is born IUGR and my sister hemorrhages during birth and needed a blood transfusion. They want more than one but are the risks worth it? Thankfully she is still fairly young and they can take a few years to decide but I hate that she is in this tough spot. Watching her go through all this (plus my mom having had fertility issues) has made me just that much more stressed out and nervous about pregnancy, especially now that I've lost one. I'm working on accepting that what will be will be but it's hard. 

As for Izzy, I would like to think that I will not be a helicopter parent, but that picture does make me cringe a bit. If it was a step stool or a chair I wouldn't bat an eye, but a bumbo? I just picture him falling forward and knocking a few teeth out on the drawer handle. 

 

[Buzzard]

43 minutes ago, MayMay1123 said:

why the hell is there still a bumbo around? i thought they were for babies who couldn't sit up on their own yet?

Because you never know when a poor brown woman will appear seeking Jebus!  You have to be prepared to support her little blessing while you god bother!

[Toothfairy]

I'm ready surprised Jill isn't pregnant. Michelle got pregnant every year. 

[Four is Enough]

57 minutes ago, JesSky03 said:

As for Izzy, I would like to think that I will not be a helicopter parent, but that picture does make me cringe a bit. If it was a step stool or a chair I wouldn't bat an eye, but a bumbo? I just picture him falling forward and knocking a few teeth out on the drawer handle. 

 

Here's the thing. A toddler isnt' going to look for a stool to climb up on; he's only looking for something to climb up on. It's the way of toddlers. He could fall onto anything at any time. Toddlers arent' exactly steady and they aren't exactly smart. They're learning. One thing they are is pretty darned resilient. You sort of watch them with your hands half held towards them, and all the while, you're hoping they navigate this thing they're doing well. And you hope that they don't fall too hard, if they do, you pick them up, dust them off, and let them try again.

[lizzybee]

I think there is a problem with the abortion argument and it is not whether or not a woman should have an abortion which is her choice and her right. No person can put themselves into the shoes of another and say what they should do. I personally wish there was a perfect scenario where no one would want or need to get an abortion. The problem is, as I see it, the necessity to define what life is to the point of exaggeration and then to the point of flippancy. 

I suffered a miscarriage 4 years ago at 5 weeks, and even though someone might say that was the easiest time or that there wasn't even a baby just a clump of cells, or whatever they wanted to say, that was the opposite of comforting to me. I can say that it was straight up the most difficult thing I ever went through (AND THIS IS MY EXPERIENCE, I KNOW, BUT JUST BECAUSE IT'S MINE DOESN'T MAKE IT IRRELEVANT). While I was recovering and sobbing and trying to get through knowing that my husband and I had created a life together and that it had died (the thought that went over and over in my mind as I miscarried) I stumbled upon 19kids and Counting on Netflix, and that experience took me and my husband and plunged us right into fundamentalism and its way of thinking. I'm still trying to pull myself out of it. I became obsessed with the idea that if I got right with God like the Duggars that I would be blessed with children in abundance. 

Fast forward 4 years later, I never did start having babies every which way just because I started wearing skirts and going to church with people who only read the KJV and sing hymns. I've sat through the Gothard seminars during this time, I've taken the internet away from myself, I got rid of beloved books, movies, music, pictures on the walls, anything I could to try to be better, to grow in faith, and have a loving family like I saw portrayed on the television. It was such a sobering and painful thing to slowly realize through meeting real life fundies and learning more about fundamentalism and IBLP, ETC. ETC. ETC. that it was all one sick, sad broken fairy tale. An ideology that sounded a lot better that what existed in reality.  

I tell you all this to point out that miscarriages can be incredibly painful and sad, and sometimes (like in my case) traumatizing. It's painful to read someone say it wasn't alive to support an argument. The child was very much alive in many cases for the mother regardless of what is literal science or fact. The baby lives because she wanted that life. Especially when she cries for it even years later and the memories she will never make with the child she found was growing inside her. That was my experience. If my baby was a clump of cells, I loved that clump of cells so deeply that it literally broke my heart to say goodbye. I knew I was pregnant for about 48 hours before it was all snatched away. It was long enough for me to close my eyes and dream. 

That doesn't downplay a woman's right to choose for her body. Pregnancy changes everything about your body, pregnancy is hard, and that's only the beginning. It's a woman's choice whether she is willing or able to give of herself to grow a life not to mention financially support it. 

When it comes to the beginning of life it can be a really sensitive subject, and you never know what someone has been through and what it feels like for them to hear/read "clump of cells" or "baby has a life and you're killing that life." Either one can be incredibly painful for the woman who has chosen to abort or for the woman who has lost a baby unwillingly. Because it's not advertised on us in a physical way, you don't know who has lost or who has had to make that incredibly difficult decision. 

I'm not back to the person I was before, and maybe I never will be. It might not be possible. Hanging out here has helped. I'm still fighting the ideas in my head that the more pious I am the safer the baby I'm carrying now will be. 

I just want to be a normal person again. I want that for the child I'm carrying now most of all. This conversation just triggered me to share my story because it's how I found you guys and this is a sensitive subject I can speak to.