Nathan (WAS) Courting Ashley (pt. 2)

[formergothardite]

I'm a country mother, people really aren't handing out axes to small children around here. Even back in the considerable less safe days of my country childhood, people didn't give small children an ax. And if we want to go back to even the more less safe days of my father's country childhood on a farm, he wasn't given an ax at four. At four he got a beating for stealing his brother's pocket knife because he couldn't get one till he was five. 

Safety isn't a big deal to the Bates. They have shown time and time a give they give absolutely no fucks about the safety of their children. From the time the Duggars visited and Gil was trying to put small children with no helmets on a pony that was clearly not wanting to be ridden, to them letting children jump on a trampoline with not only no net, but with a huge rip in it, Gil and kelly have shown over and over that think little about the safety of these precious "blessings". This isn't a country parent thing, this is a bad parent thing. 

[meee]

I can't find the post I wanted to respond to, I think it's probably several pages back. 

But honestly, I think the fact that they are willing to sort of show themselves not being perfect makes them so much more human and relatable.  Erin's miscarriages, Michael's possible infertility, Zach's and now Nathan's broken courtships, are so much more sympathetic, in my opinion, than Duggar attempted perfection - Jill's honeymoon baby, Jessa's smugness, Josh's broken courtship neatly swept under the rug (to say nothing else of Joshley Madison et al!).  I know fundies like to portray their life as perfect, but it's nice to see that they are human too, you know?

Obviously I'm not talking about whether it's a good thing to make your children's lives public - that's something else.  But I think people like the Duggars and Steve Maxwell and the like do themselves a disservice by hiding less-than-perfect happenings.

[VelociRapture]

@meeePart of that has to do with the way the shows are marketed and presented to the public. I'll go through a list to address what you wrote to make it easier for me:

1. Josh's failed courtship was before the show began and, had they brought it up, there's a chance someone may have let slip why it failed (meaning the whole "sin in the camp" crime of assaulting five innocent girls.)

2. Nathan's failed courtship, on the other hand, has to be explained because it had already been shown to the public. They had no choice and they're spinning it to seem like everything is rainbows and sunshine like it always is (when it's clear Nathan is pretty broken up over it.)

Had 19 Kids not been cancelled it's likely we would have seen a similar handling of Josiah's failed courtship - we still did to an extent when you consider they formally announced the courtship had ended.

3. Like with Nathan, the Bateses had no choice other to eventually address Zach's broken courtship. They had featured it on the one season of their first show and people kept asking what happened between them. Again, you saw them spinning it to their advantage.

4. No one has addressed Michael's alleged fertility issues at all - and, personally, I feel the Keilens have absolutely no obligation to do so. Her parents are the ones who became famous for fucking like bunnies, not Michael. This is one of those times I feel like the people directly involved (meaning Michael and Brandon) deserve some privacy. Unfortunately, it's getting to be a long enough time where they may no longer feel they can stay quiet about it - which is sad to me. They shouldn't have to share if they don't want to.

Same goes for Erin and Chad. I give them credit for being open about their struggles when they didn't necessarily need to be. However, it'll be very interesting to see how they handle potential future pregnancies - if they fully understand the risks and try to prevent somehow or if they see her shots as a miraculous cure all and try for a ton of kids regardless (while seeing it as a miracle from God.)

5. Jill's honeymoon baby? I don't see why this made the list. They got lucky their first time trying and I don't think anyone can blame them for that. I don't even fault them for publicly announcing so early - it's a personal choice that is different for each couple.

6. Jessa being smug. I don't see why this is really included either. If you include this you could also include Lawson's smugness to be honest. Or how obnoxious some of the kids were comparing their siblings' Northern significant others (meaning Brandon and Ashley) to themselves.

7. Finally, if we're bringing up Josh's crimes and cheating - we also need to bring up how the Bateses have refused to publicly address the fact that Gil and the Board (including Chad Paine's father) knew about the sexual harassment and abuse of young women by Bill Gothard, yet they did absolutely nothing to help them and went so far as to try to conceal it. They did so in order to protect their image as a normal and loving family in the same way the Duggars concealed Josh's crimes against his sisters and the fifth victim.

TLDR; the Bateses conceal just as much to protect their image. They're just way better at it then the Duggars are - partly due to their show, but also because they're just smarter about protecting their image than the Duggars are.

[formergothardite]

The Bates have also done things that when called out about their worship of a KKK leader and the Confederacy, just tried to pretend it didn't happen until they were forced to present a bullshit, unbelievable excuse. Same with their treatment of their neglected horses. And same with how they handled the fact that they celebrated Bill Gothard at Erin's wedding. 

The Bates only allow faults to be shown when the are forced to do so and when they can put a more positive spin on them. The Bates do very much sweep the dark side of their life under a rug and they do a better job of it than the Duggars. 

[meee]

Okay, I will try again, with the disclaimer that I probably should have put in my earlier post that I don't actually watch either show and only know what I read here.

I just feel like there's a lot of "we are godly therefore only good things happen to us" in the Duggar family, including, yes, things like Jill's quick pregnancy.  Of course I'm not saying Erin or Michael or anyone else owes us an explanation of why they don't have 34963579 kids yet - it's just that they seem more "real" to me.  

Maybe it does boil down to the Bateses being better actors, I don't know.  I was just sharing my impression.

[formergothardite]

1 hour ago, meee said:

it's just that they seem more "real" to me.  

Maybe it does boil down to the Bateses being better actors, I don't know.

I don't feel like they are better actors necessarily, just that they are better at hiding their evil side and better at spinning negative things to make them seem more positive. The Duggars suck at this. 

[Dandruff]

19 hours ago, Mela99 said:

So what do you think Gil and Kelly's reaction was to Nathan/Ashley having issues? Would they encourage them to pray, to read their bibles or to actually learn to compromise? Would they tell Nathan he needs a submissive wife and if she can't do that, Jesus wants him to marry someone else? Would they tell Ashley her feelings don't matter? Genuinely would like to be a fly on the wall for this.

I think they:

- Reminded Nathan and Ashley that they had prayed to the Lord about entering into a courtship, and that the Lord had said yes;

- Laid a very large pile of Gothard-y conflict resolution wisdom (booklets) on them and monitored their "progress";

- Enjoyed the UP TV money associated with the courtship;

- Eventually realized that the courtship was failing, despite the Lord's prompting and everything else;

- Continued enjoying the UP TV money while figuring out how to present the breakup;

- Consoled Nathan on camera, and consoled Nathan attributing most of the blame to Ashley off-camera;

- Will have him happily married to a nice fundie country girl before he starts craving Sonic.

[EmainMacha]

3 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

@meeePart of that has to do with the way the shows are marketed and presented to the public. I'll go through a list to address what you wrote to make it easier for me:

1. Josh's failed courtship was before the show began and, had they brought it up, there's a chance someone may have let slip why it failed (meaning the whole "sin in the camp" crime of assaulting five innocent girls.)

And, even without the need to keep the molestations quiet, that courtship would have been happening when Josh and the Holt girl involved were really young, like mid teens at best. Vaughn Ohlman would have approved (obviously not the heathen courting bit) but even the Duggars would know that the average viewer would find that discomforting if not disturbing, as it appeared as more of a parental arrangement rather than the participants having a say.*

If the Bates had had a similar 'courtship' in the past there is no way we would be hearing about it. Gil and Kelly would bury it just like the Duggars. People on the Bates blog commented on Alyssa's youthfulness but at least she was over 16 when she started to get to know John Webster. 

*I should say that the Duggar/Holt courtship has never been confirmed but was reported by Cousin Amy and one of the people who posted about the molestations long before they were made public. So this is based on that information.

[Fundie Bunny]

Did we know for sure Josh and the Holt girl broke up because of the molestation? I thought it had been because of the sin in the camp shit (molestation is no biggie, but get caught watching porn and you are filthy)

[Mela99]

4 hours ago, Fundie Bunny said:

Did we know for sure Josh and the Holt girl broke up because of the molestation? I thought it had been because of the sin in the camp shit (molestation is no biggie, but get caught watching porn and you are filthy)

Did they actually confirm that there was a courtship between the two? I can't even remember anymore.

[socalrules]

I doubt Nathan and Ashley broke up because Nathan was controlling. I think the problem is that Ashley likely realized that she didn't want to leave New York. When she was giving Nathan and his family a tour of the city, it was obvious how much Ashley loved and was proud of living there. I don't think she would ever have been happy in Tennessee. I think the idea of getting married was exciting until they realized the ramifications of it. It's likely that Ashley would have needed more than living close to a mall to be happy. Was Ashley in some type of singing or acting group or something like that? It's likely she had interests that she could really only fulfill in NYC. In rural Tennessee all Ashley would have was Nathan and his family. I doubt they would be living in Nashville because Nathan doesn't seem to be a big city guy. 

[mango_fandango]

On 3 July 2016 at 3:00 AM, Nashville92 said:

Doesn't she sing?  I'd count on a CD.  I actually felt bad for him.  Who wants to spill their broken heart on TV? 

So like a fundie Taylor Swift? (Hopefully without the repeat breakups)

[Jana814]

I live about 30 minutes outside of the city in the suburbs of New Jersery. I honestly can't imagine living anywhere else. Even though the area can drive me nuts I can't imagine giving up my life in New Jersey to move in Tenneesse. So I can totally see Ashley not wanted to move. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

31 minutes ago, socalrules said:

I doubt Nathan and Ashley broke up because Nathan was controlling. I think the problem is that Ashley likely realized that she didn't want to leave New York. When she was giving Nathan and his family a tour of the city, it was obvious how much Ashley loved and was proud of living there. I don't think she would ever have been happy in Tennessee. I think the idea of getting married was exciting until they realized the ramifications of it. It's likely that Ashley would have needed more than living close to a mall to be happy. Was Ashley in some type of singing or acting group or something like that? It's likely she had interests that she could really only fulfill in NYC. In rural Tennessee all Ashley would have was Nathan and his family. I doubt they would be living in Nashville because Nathan doesn't seem to be a big city guy. 

I feel like maybe Lawson would've been a better fit in that regard. He seems like the type that would move to Nashville to try and make it in the music industry. Ashley probably could've handled living in Nashville with frequent trips back to NYC. But then again, Lawsom probably wants a quiet girl that listens to him talk about himself all day. And Ashley probably would not go along with that.

[19 cats and counting]

1 hour ago, Jana814 said:

I live about 30 minutes outside of the city in the suburbs of New Jersery. I honestly can't imagine living anywhere else. Even though the area can drive me nuts I can't imagine giving up my life in New Jersey to move in Tenneesse. So I can totally see Ashley not wanted to move. 

I grew up in a NYC suburb and had a work assignment (about 6 months) in the Bates neck of the woods (VA side).  I had a good time there and didn't get homesick much for the time I was there (except when Sandy hit).  However, at Ashley's age (21?) I would not have been able to handle it.  

In my case, most of my colleagues were also in the same situation so we became our own little family and got through living in the sticks together.  I was in my early 30s.

[Palimpsest]

6 hours ago, Fundie Bunny said:

Did we know for sure Josh and the Holt girl broke up because of the molestation? I thought it had been because of the sin in the camp shit (molestation is no biggie, but get caught watching porn and you are filthy)

I don't think we ever had confirmation that there was even a relationship with a Holt girl.   There were at least 2 (very inefficient) whistle-blowers - one of whom hinted at a courtship with a girl from a political family.  FJ speculated that it was a Holt - but it was only speculation.  

It really might be better to leave the Holt girls out of this completely.  

Note to all whistle-blowers out there - contact the authorities directly.  Do not post weird and vague accusations on the internet - and don't muddle real accusations of sexual abuse with catty and petty pot-shots at Grandma Duggar.  It merely confuses the issue.

Whichever whistle-blower it was that finally contacted Oprah did a good thing, but damn, the molestation was apparently well known in home church circles ... and they were lucky that the Oprah show actually took action.  Random strangers on the internet can't do anything.  Contact the proper authorities.

[BeccaGrim]

12 hours ago, meee said:

I can't find the post I wanted to respond to, I think it's probably several pages back. 

But honestly, I think the fact that they are willing to sort of show themselves not being perfect makes them so much more human and relatable.  Erin's miscarriages, Michael's possible infertility, Zach's and now Nathan's broken courtships, are so much more sympathetic, in my opinion, than Duggar attempted perfection - Jill's honeymoon baby, Jessa's smugness, Josh's broken courtship neatly swept under the rug (to say nothing else of Joshley Madison et al!).  I know fundies like to portray their life as perfect, but it's nice to see that they are human too, you know?

Obviously I'm not talking about whether it's a good thing to make your children's lives public - that's something else.  But I think people like the Duggars and Steve Maxwell and the like do themselves a disservice by hiding less-than-perfect happenings.

Other than location, what do you think their issues were?  

[vienna]

7 hours ago, socalrules said:

I doubt Nathan and Ashley broke up because Nathan was controlling. I think the problem is that Ashley likely realized that she didn't want to leave New York. When she was giving Nathan and his family a tour of the city, it was obvious how much Ashley loved and was proud of living there. I don't think she would ever have been happy in Tennessee. I think the idea of getting married was exciting until they realized the ramifications of it. It's likely that Ashley would have needed more than living close to a mall to be happy. Was Ashley in some type of singing or acting group or something like that? It's likely she had interests that she could really only fulfill in NYC. In rural Tennessee all Ashley would have was Nathan and his family. I doubt they would be living in Nashville because Nathan doesn't seem to be a big city guy. 

I agree with you. In addition I think that Ashley did not like how Nathan and his family felt about new york. I remember this one conversation between Ashley, Nathan an Lawson with both guys arguing how horrible big cities abd especially  N.Y. are. Ashley seemed really  mad  about it and  made is clear that  she loved her home town and does not agree with the horror visions that  country  nuts  have.  I  don't think that the problem of her having to move from N.Y  to nowhere land would have been solved if Nathan would not have been so outspoken about  how much he diluted the evil city. But I think  it  added up to it and made the differences  more obvious. 

 

[nastyhobbitses]

21 minutes ago, vienna said:

I agree with you. In addition I think that Ashley did not like how Nathan and his family felt about new york. I remember this one conversation between Ashley, Nathan an Lawson with both guys arguing how horrible big cities abd especially  N.Y. are. Ashley seemed really  mad  about it and  made is clear that  she loved her home town and does not agree with the horror visions that  country  nuts  have.  I  don't think that the problem of her having to move from N.Y  to nowhere land would have been solved if Nathan would not have been so outspoken about  how much he diluted the evil city. But I think  it  added up to it and made the differences  more obvious. 

 

I know different strokes for different folks, but yeah, the Bates constantly going on about how terribad big cities are (they also bashed Chicago) pisses me off. Look, I wouldn't be super down to live in the countryside (if only because I don't like having to drive everywhere and because it would drive me nuts being in a tiny town where everyone would know my business), but if I go to the countryside, you bet your ass I'll find ways to enjoy myself and I won't talk shit about what I don't like to my hosts' faces.

[nokidsmom]

Catching up here on the latest with Nathan and Ashley.

Personally, I think Ashley dodged a bullet.  I got the feeling that she was carried away by the excitement of having her first boyfriend and not really thinking about the ramifications of potential marriage to him and moving away.  Which is OK, better to recognize it now and call it off, rather than continue.    I think it was totally her idea to call it off, similar to what happened to Zach's first courtship.

I find it interesting that the Bateseseses girls have had successful courtships resulting in marriage whereas the guys have had less luck thus far.  It is probably all happenstance, but when I think about it, the Bateseses girls might just get a better deal marrying and moving out of the family home whereas someone like Sarah Reith and Ashley would be giving up whatever they have going in their lives to move closer to their potential in-laws.  In short, they have more to lose by marrying into the Bateseses family as opposed to marrying out of it.

[nausicaa]

On 7/4/2016 at 1:19 PM, Dandruff said:

"before he starts craving Sonic."

This needs to become an FJ euphemism.

[Shouldabeenacowboy]

12 hours ago, nastyhobbitses said:

... but if I go to the countryside, you bet your ass I'll find ways to enjoy myself and I won't talk shit about what I don't like to my hosts' faces.

Exactly. I couldn't stand their attitude on that episode, also because it looked like gratuitous bashing, i.e. I dislike NYC just because. Very different when someone says, for example, they might enjoy certain aspects of the city but would prefer living in the country, and vice versa. 

2 hours ago, nokidsmom said:

Ashley would be giving up whatever they have going in their lives to move closer to their potential in-laws. 

It seems that Ashley has a lot going on in her life: mission trips, choir, culinary school, hustle and bustle of a world class city, etc. 

Trade that with living with the Bates(es). 

I think she might have gone through with it if Nathan had agreed to pursue the mission/praycation life, not so much living in the country full time.

[actuallyjessica]

Also isn't it a rule (not sure whether or not the Bates adhere to it) that if the relationship can end, the courtship is when the female can do so. After then, it is totally up to the guy.

[nokidsmom]

15 minutes ago, Shouldabeenacowboy said:

Exactly. I couldn't stand their attitude on that episode, also because it looked like gratuitous bashing, i.e. I dislike NYC just because. Very different when someone says, for example, they might enjoy certain aspects of the city but would prefer living in the country, and vice versa. 

It seems that Ashley has a lot going on in her life: mission trips, choir, culinary school, hustle and bustle of a world class city, etc. 

Trade that with living with the Bates(es). 

I think she might have gone through with it if Nathan had agreed to pursue the mission/praycation life, not so much living in the country full time.

Interesting that thus far, the Bateseseses boys have gone for young women who have something going on in their lives.   Which is fine, and it reflects most likely living with sisters who did do things, rather than being total SAHDs.  They worked, went to school at some point or another, have talents of their own.  No SAHDs for these guys so far, which is interesting because there's got to be fundie parents in their circles who were / are probably hoping a Bateseses guy is interested in their SAHD.  

[HereticHick]

1 hour ago, nausicaa said:

This needs to become an FJ euphemism.

Dagnabbit, now I want some Sonic Onion Rings!