Tenn. mom tells police she smothered newborn twins

[Kelya]

This isn't a desperate young women who feared the wrath of her parents; the is a murderer, aged 25 and employed, who had other options concerning the pregnancy but didn't explore them. WTF?

Or a mentally ill woman, woman under someone else's influence, a woman subject to an abusive relationship that hasn't been made public, a woman who had been raped or impregnated against her will, etc.

I'm surprised at your haste in throwing around murderer and presuming she had other viable, available options.

ETA: one of the babies was found in a laundry basket in her family home? There's gotta be other stuff going on here. She didn't exactly bury the bodies in the backyard or something that indicates hiding what she allegedly did. My money's on mentally ill, or some really fucked up family dynamics (possibly incest, or parents threatening regarding the pregnancy, etc.)

[acheronbeach]

I'm surprised at your haste in throwing around murderer and presuming she had other viable, available options.

She is, technically, a murderer, whether she had other options or not.

[gustava]

She is, technically, a murderer, whether she had other options or not.

So, technically, is Rick Perry, even if he didn't do the actual deed.

[notsocommon]

I read the article. It wasn't about Safe Haven laws 'not working' it was more about open records and identity.

I fully agree that adoptees have the right to know where they came from, but I highly doubt anyone would chose a dumpster over knowing their "identity."

[kb2]

I agree that there must be some major extenuating circumstances (mental illness, weird family) that affected this situation.

Some news articles say she gave birth at night--that would explain why no one would notice she was in the bathroom a long time. The police were called at 8:30 am.

[Beeks]

She is, technically, a murderer, whether she had other options or not.

Not necessarily under the law. A certain mindset is required for murder and that hasn't been proven.

[LynnKaboom]

Disgusting.

People like this are why that if I ruled the world, if you did something like this, you'd be strapped down to a table and given a forced hysterectomy with rusty knives and no anesthetic, then I'd chuck you in prison to rot. Unfortunately, I do not control the world, and human cockroaches like this are going to keep existing and doing this shit.

[browncoatslytherin]

re: hiding a pregnancy...watch the show "i didn't know i was pregnant". yes, it is possible to carry twins to almost full term or full term with nobody knowing.

[Wolfie]

Disgusting.

People like this are why that if I ruled the world, if you did something like this, you'd be strapped down to a table and given a forced hysterectomy with rusty knives and no anesthetic, then I'd chuck you in prison to rot. Unfortunately, I do not control the world, and human cockroaches like this are going to keep existing and doing this shit.

Really? Even if they are mentally ill- especially if it is mental illness made worse through abuse?

[LynnKaboom]

Really? Even if they are mentally ill- especially if it is mental illness made worse through abuse?

Do not presume to lecture me about mental illness. I am mentally ill. I have a personality disorder. I've been ten pounds of crazy in a five-pound bag since as long as I can remember. And you know what? I wouldn't kill babies. While I do not doubt that some mentally ill people commit such crimes sometimes, I highly resent the implication that only a mentally ill person could do something like this, or that the killer MUST be mentally ill. It is insulting to me and many other people with mental illnesses who would never do something like this.

And the mental illness being exacerbated by abuse? Where in the original article did you see anything about that? What I saw was a selfish, cowardly bitch who murdered her children because she didn't want them. There was nothing mentioned about mental illness, or about abuse (except for what that pathetic excuse for a human being did to her babies).

But if it turns out that she actually was mentally ill, I still say she should be sterilized and contained. Maybe in a secure psychiatric facility instead of prison, but she definitely should be punished for it.

[Kitty]

Abortion is better. Some here might think there's no difference, but to me there is a HUGE difference. The vast, vast majority of abortions are performed in the first and second trimesters, long before life can be supported. There's a huge difference between a fetus and a baby that is already born. Abortion is a much better option than infanticide, since you are not killing a human being that has already taken a breath.

[Beeks]

Do not presume to lecture me about mental illness. I am mentally ill. I have a personality disorder. I've been ten pounds of crazy in a five-pound bag since as long as I can remember. And you know what? I wouldn't kill babies. While I do not doubt that some mentally ill people commit such crimes sometimes, I highly resent the implication that only a mentally ill person could do something like this, or that the killer MUST be mentally ill. It is insulting to me and many other people with mental illnesses who would never do something like this.

And the mental illness being exacerbated by abuse? Where in the original article did you see anything about that? What I saw was a selfish, cowardly bitch who murdered her children because she didn't want them. There was nothing mentioned about mental illness, or about abuse (except for what that pathetic excuse for a human being did to her babies).

But if it turns out that she actually was mentally ill, I still say she should be sterilized and contained. Maybe in a secure psychiatric facility instead of prison, but she definitely should be punished for it.

1) Nobody said or even implied that ONLY a mentally ill person could commit such a crime, just that it might absolve her of some guilt if that were the case.

2) Just because you are mentally ill and would never do this doesn't mean no mentally ill person would do it. As I'm sure you know there are all different brands of mental illness - the ones that cannot tell right from wrong are the ones that are not going to be guilty of a crime. It happens.

3) The article didn't talk about abuse - I think people are just pointing out that we don't know the facts and that there are likely some extenuating circumstances. It's pretty rare that a completely mentally healthy, happy, normal person with a stable home life commits a crime like that.

[Kitty]

We should also remember that infanticide was widespread in some cultures, and likely still is. In China baby girls were killed because they, unlike boys, couldn't carry on the family's legacy, etc. No mental illness required for that one, just shitty social policies and lack of birth control. I don't doubt that there were extenuating circumstances here.

[Wolfie]

1) Nobody said or even implied that ONLY a mentally ill person could commit such a crime, just that it might absolve her of some guilt if that were the case.

2) Just because you are mentally ill and would never do this doesn't mean no mentally ill person would do it. As I'm sure you know there are all different brands of mental illness - the ones that cannot tell right from wrong are the ones that are not going to be guilty of a crime. It happens.

3) The article didn't talk about abuse - I think people are just pointing out that we don't know the facts and that there are likely some extenuating circumstances. It's pretty rare that a completely mentally healthy, happy, normal person with a stable home life commits a crime like that.

This.

[LynnKaboom]

1) Nobody said or even implied that ONLY a mentally ill person could commit such a crime, just that it might absolve her of some guilt if that were the case.

2) Just because you are mentally ill and would never do this doesn't mean no mentally ill person would do it. As I'm sure you know there are all different brands of mental illness - the ones that cannot tell right from wrong are the ones that are not going to be guilty of a crime. It happens.

3) The article didn't talk about abuse - I think people are just pointing out that we don't know the facts and that there are likely some extenuating circumstances. It's pretty rare that a completely mentally healthy, happy, normal person with a stable home life commits a crime like that.

1- OK, going back and re-reading the comment I responded to, I can sort of see what you're saying, although I will say that it definitely read as though the other poster was saying that only someone who was mentally ill could do something like that. It still reads very much like that to me, although I can see the different interpretations.

2- Yes, I know there are different brands of mental illness. The vast majority of people with mental illness, however, can tell right from wrong. Occasionally you'll get people like Seung-hui Cho or Jared Loughtner, but it seems to me to be a big stretch to automatically assume that a murderer is mentally ill. Look at many high-profile murder cases- many times, the killer was just pissed at the victim, or didn't want to be a mother. What is common as well is using a religious defense (God told me to!), or they'll say they heard voices, but unless it's proven by a psychiatrist that they are indeed mentally ill, I tend to think they're just trying to explain away their actions.

3- OK, I concede that.

[Wolfie]

1- OK, going back and re-reading the comment I responded to, I can sort of see what you're saying, although I will say that it definitely read as though the other poster was saying that only someone who was mentally ill could do something like that. It still reads very much like that to me, although I can see the different interpretations.

2- Yes, I know there are different brands of mental illness. The vast majority of people with mental illness, however, can tell right from wrong. Occasionally you'll get people like Seung-hui Cho or Jared Loughtner, but it seems to me to be a big stretch to automatically assume that a murderer is mentally ill. Look at many high-profile murder cases- many times, the killer was just pissed at the victim, or didn't want to be a mother. What is common as well is using a religious defense (God told me to!), or they'll say they heard voices, but unless it's proven by a psychiatrist that they are indeed mentally ill, I tend to think they're just trying to explain away their actions.

3- OK, I concede that.

You're reading a hell of a lot more into my question than what I intended- no hidden or extra meanings at all. I never insinuated that somebody who was not mentally ill would not do this- but you can generally say that most people who do this sort of thing are not "normal."

And you have no idea of any of my background either- I know, and love, some people with mental illness. They would never kill anybody. BUT, the sister of a friend I grew up with tried to kill my friend's infant daughter due to her mental illness. (they were watching and caught it before anything happened.) It was not my friend's sister's fault, it was her mental illness and when they got her on the right meds, ect, she really regretted the action.

[gilora]

re: hiding a pregnancy...watch the show "i didn't know i was pregnant". yes, it is possible to carry twins to almost full term or full term with nobody knowing.

Sorry if this is off-topic, but I have to call bullshit on any woman who gives birth claiming she didn't know she was pregnant. Toward the end of the pregnancy the baby is kicking and moving all of the time. The heartburn, waddling, sleeplessness and the enormous watermelon in the abdomen should provide some clues.

I also call bullshit that this woman was able to hide a full-term twin pregnancy. There's definitely more to this tragic story.

[LynnKaboom]

You're reading a hell of a lot more into my question than what I intended- no hidden or extra meanings at all. I never insinuated that somebody who was not mentally ill would not do this- but you can generally say that most people who do this sort of thing are not "normal."

And you have no idea of any of my background either- I know, and love, some people with mental illness. They would never kill anybody. BUT, the sister of a friend I grew up with tried to kill my friend's infant daughter due to her mental illness. (they were watching and caught it before anything happened.) It was not my friend's sister's fault, it was her mental illness and when they got her on the right meds, ect, she really regretted the action.

I am glad your friend's daughter is alright, and that your friend's sister got on the medication she needed.

I know I'm kind of overly defensive. I just don't particularly like the connection people make between someone killing someone else = they must be mentally ill.

But I'm pretty sure I understand what you were trying to say now, and I apologize for biting your head off.

[kb2]

I also call bullshit that this woman was able to hide a full-term twin pregnancy. There's definitely more to this tragic story.

Part of it might be, if you accuse someone of being pregnant, and they claim they're not and that they just gained weight, you feel really embarrassed for commenting on someone's weight. You'd have to be really close to someone to insist, "You've got to have a baby in there," because if you're wrong you're really insulting them. I can see how a bunch of people would be highly suspicious but not say much.

(I once got mistaken for my pregnant sister, and that was a really awkward conversation. There was a stomach-pat and everything. I think that person still avoids me in shame.)

[Wolfie]

Sorry if this is off-topic, but I have to call bullshit on any woman who gives birth claiming she didn't know she was pregnant. Toward the end of the pregnancy the baby is kicking and moving all of the time. The heartburn, waddling, sleeplessness and the enormous watermelon in the abdomen should provide some clues.

I also call bullshit that this woman was able to hide a full-term twin pregnancy. There's definitely more to this tragic story.

I think that this has been discussed before- enough to know that not everybody's pregnancy is the same.

[Wolfie]

[

I know I'm kind of overly defensive. I just don't particularly like the connection people make between someone killing someone else = they must be mentally ill.

But I'm pretty sure I understand what you were trying to say now, and I apologize for biting your head off.

No problem. We all have things that we jump at and get defensive.

[ricky_ticky]

My roommate in college hid a pregnancy, (a singleton,) when she was in high school. She was a little overweight and wore big baggy sweat suits at her largest. It was winter at that time so it was normal to be all bundled up, plus people just assumed she was packing on the pounds. She kept to herself, which was made easier by the fact that her family lived on a farm.

She gave birth shortly after Christmas. The first time her parents found out about the pregnancy was after she'd labored alone all night and finally had to tell them that morning. Shock! She gave birth in a hospital and insisted that she wanted to keep the child, a boy with red hair like hers. Her father tried to pressured her into letting he and her mother raise the boy as their own. When she refused, he insisted that she give the baby up for adoption. She signed the baby over to a Catholic charity, and although she was promised that the baby would not be adopted locally a family at a nearby parish probably got him. She did get to hold him several times and she swore she recognized him later when she saw this couple and their new baby.

She claimed that neither the father nor her fellow students ever found out about the pregnancy and the baby.

[JesusFightClub]

Abortion is better. Some here might think there's no difference, but to me there is a HUGE difference. The vast, vast majority of abortions are performed in the first and second trimesters, long before life can be supported. There's a huge difference between a fetus and a baby that is already born. Abortion is a much better option than infanticide, since you are not killing a human being that has already taken a breath.

I don't see the difference, except that it is more difficult mentally for a person to do the act. What is magic or important about taking a breath? Many babies do that shouldn't.

Understand, I am very pro choice and I totally agree with you that this woman should have had an abortion early doors if she didn't want a child or children. However, just making a case "as life could be supported" I can't understand on a practical or moral level. It seems like an arbitrary distinction we don't make with any degree of logic.

[acheronbeach]

Not necessarily under the law. A certain mindset is required for murder and that hasn't been proven.

I wasn't talking the technicalities of mens rea or actus reus. And it's difficult for the defence to argue that there was no mens rea where an accused appears to have planned her actions; it's even more difficult for the defence to meet the burden of proving that the accused was not criminally responsible.

I think, though, most people would see a person who smothers another person as a murderer, whether the legal test for mens rea was met or not.