Tori Bates Courtship

[formergothardite]

Not even the Duggar kids turned out carbon copies of their parents. Yes, Alyssa(and most of the married Duggar/Bates kids) have made slightly different choices than their parents made. But the problem is when people see these tiny changes as a move from fundamentalism or act that they can't be a fundamentalist Christian if they wear pants or pose shirtless. They can. Alyssa wearing pants, Tori courting a guy who went to PCC, Jessa* and Ben listening to rap, those things aren't signs that they are less fundamentalist. They still seem to believe the same awful things. 

That is why I asked @actuallyjessica why I am supposed to believe that someone is fundie lite when they share the same core beliefs, they just dress differently? That makes no sense. There is no indication any of the Bates or Duggar kids have become slightly less fundamental in their Christian beliefs or that any of the Bates kids are moving away from the IBLP mothership. 

Don't mistake becoming a different sort of fundamentalist for becoming less fundie. 

*Why is it that no one started saying that Jessa is becoming less fundie or taking baby steps away? Listening to rap is hardly IBLP approved and isn't even IFB approved. That right there is a bigger step away than Alyssa has made. So if people are going to say any of them are less fundie, it should be Jessa. 

[19 cats and counting]

I think the difference between Alyssa and Jessa (who has also taken baby steps, but I think she's going to end up more Ben's flavor of Christianity) is that Alyssa is no longer under parental control. 

While Jessa is technically under Ben's headship, they live on family owned property and neither of them have a job besides 'reality TV star' or 'FIL's lawn boy."

John works at the (family-owned) HVAC business and he and Alyssa also clean offices.  

If both shows disappeared tomorrow and never came back, the Websters would still have income coming in.  I'm not sure how fast Ben (or Jessa) would get a job (hint-- it didn't happen after Joshgate 1.0 cancelled 19K).

[formergothardite]

1 minute ago, 19 cats and counting said:

I think the difference between Alyssa and Jessa (who has also taken baby steps, but I think she's going to end up more Ben's flavor of Christianity) is that Alyssa is no longer under parental control. 

While Jessa is technically under Ben's headship, they live on family owned property and neither of them have a job besides 'reality TV star' or 'FIL's lawn boy."

John works at the (family-owned) HVAC business and he and Alyssa also clean offices.  

If both shows disappeared tomorrow and never came back, the Websters would still have income coming in.  I'm not sure how fast Ben (or Jessa) would get a job (hint-- it didn't happen after Joshgate 1.0 cancelled 19K).

Reality television star is a job(and IMO slightly less awful than becoming a missionary) and might have actually paid better in the long run if Josh had not screwed it up. I still don't get why people squee about Alyssa taking baby steps when she moved from being one kind of IBLP family to being another, while Jessa didn't get any praise for doing something that is seen as total rebellion in the home she was raised, in IBLP and in IFB circles. Alyssa has made basically no steps away from IBLP, but gets praised for shifting to another IBLP family.  

We have no idea what Jessa and Ben's finances are. They might not even need to rush out and get a job if the show gets canceled

[JermajestyDuggar]

12 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

Reality television star is a job(and IMO slightly less awful than becoming a missionary) and might have actually paid better in the long run if Josh had not screwed it up. I still don't get why people squee about Alyssa taking baby steps when she moved from being one kind of IBLP family to being another, while Jessa didn't get any praise for doing something that is seen as total rebellion in the home she was raised, in IBLP and in IFB circles. Alyssa has made basically no steps away from IBLP, but gets praised for shifting to another IBLP family.  

We have no idea what Jessa and Ben's finances are. They might not even need to rush out and get a job if the show gets canceled

I like that Alyssa doesn't incessantly talk about god, Jesus, and religion. She is still fundie, but of the Bates kids that are married, I would guess she is currently most likely to one day not be Fundie. But yeah, she's still fundie. I also like that she isn't always keeping sweet. I can't stand that shit.

[19 cats and counting]

I also think another reason people seem to like Alyssa better is that she doesn't have the obnoxious preachy social media posts that Jessa has.  Ok and while Allie's not my first choice of names (to me it is a nickname for Allison, Alexandra, etc) it's 1000 times better than Spurgeon (who is IMO is a cuter kid than Allie).

While we know she attends church every Sunday from the selfies, she's not condemning people who don't agree with her to hell or comparing abortion to the Holocaust (the obnoxious posts in her family are left to Lawson).  Alyssa may agree with that, but she's keeping her mouth shut.

Ok just checked both their Instagrams.  Jessa's toned it down since becoming a mom, but she still posts scripture quotes on a regular basis.  Alyssa posted a Bible quote surrounded by photos about mourning after it looks like she attended a funeral.  She occasionally hawks Christian themed apparel (I believe Lawson does too), but the only way you can tell she's a Christian is by the church selfies.

(Instagram's very slow right now for me, so I can't go back very far).  I only checked these two ladies, I didn't look at their husbands' pages.

[formergothardite]

So basically she probably believes all that stuff, she just keeps quiet about it? In the end, she still have given no indication she is done anything but move from being one IBLP fundie to being another IBLP fundie and yet she gets praised. While Jessa has done something that is in total rebellion against IBLP, her parents and how she was raised, but since she is more annoying, no one is going to praise her for taking any step away from the IBLP mothership. 

I get liking Alyssa better, but still, I don't get why people think she is moving away from IBLP. 

[RosyDaisy]

Alyssa may not be under the control of her parents, but she is under the control of her political in-laws. Look up U.S. Congressman Daniel Webster. Think on that before proclaiming Alyssa is taking baby steps.

[divadivine]

I think the only way anyone can say with certainty that any of these fundies has left the fold is if the fundie actually comes out and says "I don't believe this crock of horse shit anymore." Until we get some blatant declaration, it's safe to assume they're still sipping the Kool-Aid. You can wear jeans and dress your little precious princess in pants and still be a dyed in the wool Fundie. 

[19 cats and counting]

I guess I'm willing to give people the benefit of the doubt until they say or do something to prove otherwise.

And so far, the only Bates to open his mouth is Lawson.  

[crazysnark]

I don't know that we can say for sure that Alyssa believes all of the fundie things anymore than she doenst believes them. She has never come out and said, so it is unfair to pin those beliefs on her when we don't know if she still holds them or not. She never came out in favor of fundamental beliefs, her parents did. She has a mind of her own. This disagreement would be hard to publicly announce this when you are a celebrity (D list). A lot of my family is considered "mainstream" Christians and are still against gay marriage and choice but they are far from fundie. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

I watch Alyssa a lot. Like when she's on the show I watch her body language. She almost acts a little uncomfortable around her family at times. A little stand off-ish Like maybe she's an outsider now? I mean out of all the kids to marry, she was the youngest by far and she immediately moved states away. That takes some courage. I bet she knew she would marry young and get out. Erin and Michael were fine with staying home for years waiting for their Prince Charming to come along. She doesn't care to keep sweet or use a stupid baby voice. She's a little sassy with the car seat situation. So I am going much more by the way she acts than the way she dresses. Sure she could be fundie, but I have hope for her yet. 

[RoseWilder]

On 5/4/2016 at 1:03 AM, Hisey said:

I also think that driving around trapped in a bus for weeks on end is bad for any family, and did a lot of damage to the young Duggar kids.

 

I think the molestation did more damage than the bus. 

Although, now that I think about the bus and the molestation at the same time, how the hell did the Duggar parents keep Josh away from his sisters while they were on the bus? They claim to have put safeguards in place at home (which seem to have consisted of locking the girls in their rooms at night.) What did they do on the bus?

And just think about how awful that would be for the girls to be trapped in such a small space with the person who molested them. Those poor girls. 

[elliha]

5 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I watch Alyssa a lot. Like when she's on the show I watch her body language. She almost acts a little uncomfortable around her family at times. A little stand off-ish Like maybe she's an outsider now? I mean out of all the kids to marry, she was the youngest by far and she immediately moved states away. That takes some courage. I bet she knew she would marry young and get out. Erin and Michael were fine with staying home for years waiting for their Prince Charming to come along. She doesn't care to keep sweet or use a stupid baby voice. She's a little sassy with the car seat situation. So I am going much more by the way she acts than the way she dresses. Sure she could be fundie, but I have hope for her yet. 

This is what I have felt too. She hasn't disowned her parents or anything like that but she doesn't seem to be a natural part of the family the same way. I think that regardless of beliefs she likes being able to keep them slightly at distance and pick when and how to meet them. I can relate to this a bit. I love my family but they also bug the hell out of me and I have made some choices that are different from them and that put us at a bit more distance than if I hadn't. I would die without them but I still don't want to live exactly like them. This might be Alyssa's story too.

[formergothardite]

9 hours ago, 19 cats and counting said:

I guess I'm willing to give people the benefit of the doubt until they say or do something to prove otherwise.

And so far, the only Bates to open his mouth is Lawson.  

The problem with this is that she is still actively participating in a selling a dangerous lie. She is part of the Bates show that presents this family and their beliefs as happy and wholesome. People don't believe the victims of IBLP and don't believe the accusations against Gil because of that show. By participating she is hurting people. I would give her more of a benefit of a doubt if she, her husband and her baby weren't also being used to promote the IBLP family conferences. She may not have attended the conference, but she allowed herself to be advertised as a participant.

When there is no sign of real change, why believe there is? There no indication Alyssa has moved away from IBLP just like there is no indication that Tori's guy isn't very, very fundie. People cut the Bates way more slack than they ever cut the Duggars and the Bates don't deserve it. 

[nelliebelle1197]

22 hours ago, 19 cats and counting said:

While everyone speculates on the 2nd generation fundies leaving upon marriage, the only way it is going to happen is if both are on board and put on a show until marriage.  

In the meantime, some do take baby steps away from the mothership (Alyssa Bates Webster) which should be applauded (as they can lead to something bigger).  But as nobody here knows these people personally, it is hard to tell from scripted reality TV and social media posts (face it, everyone would have wonderful lives if social media is to be believed).

However, some fundie kids do escape upon a parent approved courtship/marriage.  I believe that is how Rebekah? Keller got out.  (Then again Mike Keller does not have the best track record at marrying his daughters to decent men).

Jesus Motherfucking Christ. Alyssa Bates has not moved an inch away from fundamentalism. Please learn something about fundamentalism before you open your mouth. As a former fundie, I get so DAMN tired of people with no experience outside of TV and an internet forum who don't understand that skirts and quiverfull philosophy are not necessary to be a fundie. AGAIN, for the millionth time, baby steps require forward momentum. Alyssa Bate is a superficial twit who does not have the critical thinking skills to move towards anything unless it is shiny and covered in glitter.

And we don't even know if Alyssa isn't quiverfull, FFS.

If you want to see what people moving away from fundamentalism looks like, go look at the ROVIROSI FAMILY THREAD.

22 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

Do you?  If so, do please share your great wisdom!  While we are at it, perhaps you could tell us exactly what a Fundie is so we all know?  

We've always carefully avoided defining Fundie on FJ because people have their individual opinions. I can promise you that very few of us here think it has much to do with how people dress.  

To me, a Fundie is a person who holds dangerous (in my opinion) religious views and tries to impose them on others.  I don't really have an opinion on what exactly constitutes Fundie-lite - except that they probably keep their more dangerous opinions to themselves instead of directly proselytizing at me.

I'm not seeing a decrease in Fundyism with any of the Bateses so far.  And if Bobby Smith goes to PCC and attends the Hillsdale Baptist Church in Tampa, FL that I just found  - well, that's really damn Fundie!  Do you really think Gil Bates would have approved a courtship otherwise?

@actuallyjessica are you from a fundamentalist, evangelical background? Do you understand it? I really don't think you get the fact that fundamentalism is fundamentalism. The "fundy lite" designation has been used on here in a million different ways and means nothing. I honestly don't think, despite your years on this forum, you get what fundamentalism really is. Neither you or many, many posters seem to understand that fundamentalism comes in many religions and in many forms. It does not exclusively mean skirt-wearing Gothard loving IBLP grads. There are a million forms of fundamentalism and a million forms of religious oppression and those religions do not always look the same and even have the same rules from follower to follower.

[OnceUponATime]

18 hours ago, Coconut Flan said:

I have neighbors I see as fundie and neighbors I see as fundie-lite and it's a matter to me of extremism and rigidity.  And I the way I see them may vary considerably from how someone else would define them.

I think this is very true. I would describe my mother as fundie, and my dad as fundie-lite. To me the biggest difference between them is the pure black and white rigid thinking (no gray, none, nope, hell now, gray does not exist) and the more gray-scale/acceptance of other ideas.

Here are some examples as to how that looked in real life (through my eyes):

1. We looked for a new church at one stage. We happened to go into a church where a woman was scheduled to speak. Neither of my parents afaik think women should be full-time preachers/pastors etc. How that view is outed differs.

Mother's opinion: we get up and leave this church immediately because women may NEVER speak in church like that. We will never go back to this church ever.

Dad's opinion: we will stay for the message, we might come back again to check the church out further if the message given is theologically sound. If women preaching happens a lot, then it will be an issue, but the concept of having occasional woman-bought messages is not wrong. It comes down to trusting the church leaders enough in their screening process behind who can speak.

 

2. On me going out to friends places where there may be the presence of 'evil influences' (like males, or parents who drink alcohol):

Mother: nope, never, not happening. Satan will get a foothold in your life. you'll become a pregnant drunk (etc etc etc). Your desire to go already shows that you're not a strong christian.

Dad: let her go, she should learn how to stick up for her own principles while she still has a safety net at home. She's strong enough to say no, and if not she'll have to face the consequences of her own decisions. Better now than later.

 

3. Should a guy have to ask my father's permission to marry me before proposing?

Mother: you're kicked out of the family if it doesn't happen like that.

Father: I would like it. It's not a deal breaker, I think it shows respect for me. So, does your bf need to ask me a question? (cue for me: )

 

4. On females wearing feminine clothes. (My mother wears pants, although she dislikes it. She only wears them when they are functionally needed.)

Mother: It must happen in church. Women should dress feminine all the time, unless something really calls for pants/trousers wearing. Females wearing trousers in church are heathens.

Father: it's more important that someone is going to church, than that they are dressed according to some 'biblical dress-code'

 

5. On other denominations/churches

Mother: they aren't real Christians. If they were they wouldn't believe in X, Y and Z.

Dad: Only God knows their heart and if they have accepted Jesus... The 'little stuff' (ie X Y and Z) don't matter as much, as long as their core beliefs are correct.

 

While a lot of their core beliefs are pretty identical, they way they view others who disagree with them is extremely different. Some people here would class my dad as a fundie, which is fine. Wanting to say my mother is fundie-lite because she occasionally wears jeans is a bit f'd up in my opinion.

I would also add, my mother wasn't quiverfull (thank fsm). That doesn't stop her being a fundie. Being a fundie doesn't mean you subscribe to a specific set of beliefs and only people who subscribe to all of them are fundies. IMO it's more about how you treat the handpicked set of beliefs you chose. This is why fundamentalism isn't just limited to Christianity.

[QuiverDance]

Or she can form John's opinions.  It's really impossible to tell.

[nelliebelle1197]

40 minutes ago, QuiverDance said:

Or she can form John's opinions.  It's really impossible to tell.

And John's opinions are likely the same as his family's, who are just as extreme as the Bates'. Gil Bates would never have allowed his daughters to marry out of the fold the way JimBob Duggar has allowed his daughters to marry men with different theology. Anna Duggar is the only in-law from the ATI/IBLP fold.  All three Bates daughters married men from ATI/IBLP families. Ashley is also from that sect. I love how everyone forgets about the facts when the facts don't conform to the fantasies.

[actuallyjessica]

3 hours ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

Jesus Motherfucking Christ. Alyssa Bates has not moved an inch away from fundamentalism. Please learn something about fundamentalism before you open your mouth. As a former fundie, I get so DAMN tired of people with no experience outside of TV and an internet forum who don't understand that skirts and quiverfull philosophy are not necessary to be a fundie. AGAIN, for the millionth time, baby steps require forward momentum. Alyssa Bate is a superficial twit who does not have the critical thinking skills to move towards anything unless it is shiny and covered in glitter.

And we don't even know if Alyssa isn't quiverfull, FFS.

If you want to see what people moving away from fundamentalism looks like, go look at the ROVIROSI FAMILY THREAD.

@actuallyjessica are you from a fundamentalist, evangelical background? Do you understand it? I really don't think you get the fact that fundamentalism is fundamentalism. The "fundy lite" designation has been used on here in a million different ways and means nothing. I honestly don't think, despite your years on this forum, you get what fundamentalism really is. Neither you or many, many posters seem to understand that fundamentalism comes in many religions and in many forms. It does not exclusively mean skirt-wearing Gothard loving IBLP grads. There are a million forms of fundamentalism and a million forms of religious oppression and those religions do not always look the same and even have the same rules from follower to follower.

Oh, I think I understand it perfectly. It's that nobody on here is allowed to have an opinion that differs from the standard "if someone is born to a fundie/seen with a fundie/ or even looks at a fundie, they're guilty by association, even if they never voice their opinion for or against the environment in which they were raised."

If someone here dares object to the standard above, they are singled out and downvoted by the regulars who are replying to every fricken post in this topic. Do you all want this forum to be a bunch of "oh, I agree" posts. I know this post will be downvoted, and I don't care. This isn't a popularity contest.

So much time and energy must go into posting about how these families are trying to recruit new members into IBLP... but guess where it's being posted? On FJ, a place where we all know bad shit is happening. No one on here is going to run away and join the cult simply because we like that Alyssa wears pants, or anything superficial like that.

My original comment was asking why the same people who won't let others speak, are mentioning fundie lite as if it does exist in their world - when clearly, it does not? Everyone is the same. No one can ever redeem themselves. Guilty by association. Always.

[formergothardite]

You didn't answer my question. If he shares the same horrible core beliefs as they do, why should we think he is less fundie because of superficial things like clothing? 

Do you understand that people can be fundie and wear regular clothes? Or do you really think that fundies only dress a certain way? 

It is important to remember that the horrible fundie beliefs that this family represents, no matter what sort of cute clothes they wear. She is actively participating in spreading lies that hurt people, so yes she is guilty by association. She is allowing her picture and the picture of her baby to be used to promote IBLP, so yes, she is guilty by association. Why wouldn't she be? 

A lot of people have redeemed themselves from the fundie life, Alyssa just isn't one of them yet, no matter how much you want her to be. 

[actuallyjessica]

16 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

You didn't answer my question. If he shares the same horrible core beliefs as they do, why should we think he is less fundie because of superficial things like clothing? 

Do you understand that people can be fundie and wear regular clothes? Or do you really think that fundies only dress a certain way? 

It is important to remember that the horrible fundie beliefs that this family represents, no matter what sort of cute clothes they wear. She is actively participating in spreading lies that hurt people, so yes she is guilty by association. She is allowing her picture and the picture of her baby to be used to promote IBLP, so yes, she is guilty by association. Why wouldn't she be? 

A lot of people have redeemed themselves from the fundie life, Alyssa just isn't one of them yet, no matter how much you want her to be. 

Yes, I understand people who wear 'regular' clothing can have some of the most extreme opinions. I never said I was having trouble understanding. My question was - why do the regular posters continue to refer to 'fundie' and 'fundie lite' as if there is a difference, and once they reach 'fundie lite' by your standards they will be treated differently? I'm not sure why my question was so hard to understand.

 Nobody *really* knows anything about Bobby other than he goes to a fundie college and is Tori's boyfriend.

I know I've asked this before but, how will you, formergothardite (and others!), know when any of these fundies make the (very personal) decision to live their lives differently to the way they were raised? Only once they make an instagram post saying "I hate Gothard and all things IBLP" what about if they stop speaking to their families? Attend a pro-choice rally? Say they're voting for Hillary?

I ask because I am curious for new discussions, and I hope that this post will spark that.

[theinvisiblegirl]

On 5/31/2016 at 11:23 AM, Palimpsest said:

Joshua McDonald was very much IBLP/ATI when Pa Keller approved the marriage to Rebekah.  He/they worked their way out several years later, having their first doubts while they were IBLP missionaries in either China or Mongolia, IIRC. It is a pity Josh took his exIBLP site down because it was a good description of how he gradually worked his way out of the mindset.  BTW, there is no record of Josh McD and Rebekah having finalized their divorce that I can find.  Josh McD still identifies as very conservative Christian - he just rejected the"legalistic mindset."  

<snip>

Do you have a link to the old exIBLP site? We could try the wayback machine to see if it was archived, as it definitely sounds like something people - especially me  - would be interested in reading.

[formergothardite]

1 hour ago, actuallyjessica said:

Yes, I understand people who wear 'regular' clothing can have some of the most extreme opinions. I never said I was having trouble understanding. My question was - why do the regular posters continue to refer to 'fundie' and 'fundie lite' as if there is a difference, and once they reach 'fundie lite' by your standards they will be treated differently? I'm not sure why my question was so hard to understand.

 Nobody *really* knows anything about Bobby other than he goes to a fundie college and is Tori's boyfriend.

I know I've asked this before but, how will you, formergothardite (and others!), know when any of these fundies make the (very personal) decision to live their lives differently to the way they were raised? Only once they make an instagram post saying "I hate Gothard and all things IBLP" what about if they stop speaking to their families? Attend a pro-choice rally? Say they're voting for Hillary?

I ask because I am curious for new discussions, and I hope that this post will spark that.

We also know that last year Bobby was working at a very, very, very, VERY fundie church. All signs point to being fundie. Honest, question, why do you think he wouldn't be fundie? If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is probably a duck. So if a guy goes is a fundie college, works at a fundie church and is approved by a very fundie man to court his fundie daughter, then there is a pretty damn good chance he is fundie. 

People who are truly starting to change and realize the horrors of fundamental Christianity aren't going to be on a reality television show that make fundamental Christianity look cute and appealing. They aren't going to allow themselves to be used to promote something like IBLP.  They aren't going to be out supporting a politician who has horrible fundie beliefs. If Alyssa dropped out of the show, stopped allowing her family to be used to promote IBLP and stopped supporting her scary FIL, I would start thinking she was moving away from being fundie.  

But it is just down right ridiculous that people act like Alyssa is moving away from being IBLP fundie when, to all appearances,  she just moved to being another kind of IBLP fundie. 

Also, since Alyssa has given no indication that she has changed her core fundie beliefs, she is still helping support IBLP, still on a show that damages IBLP victims, do you think she is less fundie and if so, why? 

 

[Palimpsest]

31 minutes ago, theinvisiblegirl said:

Do you have a link to the old exIBLP site? We could try the wayback machine to see if it was archived, as it definitely sounds like something people - especially me  - would be interested in reading.

No.  I'm sorry. I wish I did.  I'm 99% sure it was called exIBLP (not exATI) - but it was anonymous.  I saw a link to it somewhere fairly recently - as in within the last year - but it came up as a 404 (?) error when I clicked it.  I'll try a search on yuku - you can too - to see if it comes up.  Yuku is a real nosebleed to search though.

Josh McDonald does comment on Recovering Grace occasionally using his full name.  He's definitely left Gothardism.

All that said, Josh has made it clear (see his post to TWoP I linked to up-thread) that he values his, and his family's even more, privacy.  I rather respect that.  He may have wiped the blog long ago because he didn't want us or others to find it.  I rather respect his pleas to leave him alone, especially if it is true that he and Rebekah are divorcing.   He has photos of himself and his children on FB, but none of Rebekah these days.  

[JermajestyDuggar]

8 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

No.  I'm sorry. I wish I did.  I'm 99% sure it was called exIBLP (not exATI) - but it was anonymous.  I saw a link to it somewhere fairly recently - as in within the last year - but it came up as a 404 (?) error when I clicked it.  I'll try a search on yuku - you can too - to see if it comes up.  Yuku is a real nosebleed to search though.

Josh McDonald does comment on Recovering Grace occasionally using his full name.  He's definitely left Gothardism.

All that said, Josh has made it clear (see his post to TWoP I linked to up-thread) that he values his, and his family's even more, privacy.  I rather respect that.  He may have wiped the blog long ago because he didn't want us or others to find it.  I rather respect his pleas to leave him alone, especially if it is true that he and Rebekah are divorcing.   He has photos of himself and his children on FB, but none of Rebekah these days.  

Wasn't it reported in a magazine that they were divorcing? He doesn't have any pics of her up on his FB and he was not in recent pics from the funeral the family attended in FL (although Josh Duggar was). 

Which makes me wonder if the Keller family will now say, "see! You stray from God and this is what happens!"