Tori Bates Courtship

[Palimpsest]

1 hour ago, actuallyjessica said:

But do you not understand the difference between fundie and fundie lite?

Do you?  If so, do please share your great wisdom!  While we are at it, perhaps you could tell us exactly what a Fundie is so we all know?  

We've always carefully avoided defining Fundie on FJ because people have their individual opinions. I can promise you that very few of us here think it has much to do with how people dress.  

To me, a Fundie is a person who holds dangerous (in my opinion) religious views and tries to impose them on others.  I don't really have an opinion on what exactly constitutes Fundie-lite - except that they probably keep their more dangerous opinions to themselves instead of directly proselytizing at me.

I'm not seeing a decrease in Fundyism with any of the Bateses so far.  And if Bobby Smith goes to PCC and attends the Hillsdale Baptist Church in Tampa, FL that I just found  - well, that's really damn Fundie!  Do you really think Gil Bates would have approved a courtship otherwise?

[19 cats and counting]

While everyone speculates on the 2nd generation fundies leaving upon marriage, the only way it is going to happen is if both are on board and put on a show until marriage.  

In the meantime, some do take baby steps away from the mothership (Alyssa Bates Webster) which should be applauded (as they can lead to something bigger).  But as nobody here knows these people personally, it is hard to tell from scripted reality TV and social media posts (face it, everyone would have wonderful lives if social media is to be believed).

However, some fundie kids do escape upon a parent approved courtship/marriage.  I believe that is how Rebekah? Keller got out.  (Then again Mike Keller does not have the best track record at marrying his daughters to decent men).

[just...sare]

16 hours ago, Casserole said:

 

All of my cousins ages 15+ called dibs on baby names one Christmas and stuck to it since we had a zillion people in the baby-making ages.. Except I'm the youngest, so my ideas of good names back then are not names I would choose now. But I don't totally see the harm in it compared to the internal anger/hurt when your sibling or cousin chooses that one baby name you've coveted since you were a little girl. 

Wedding colors are a little sillier and less of a big deal, IMO. 

Among my cousins on my Dad's side, there are four great-grandchildren: Piper, Seamus, Piper, and Cadence. Apparently one cousin FORGOT THERE WAS ALREADY a kid with the same exact name.

[19 cats and counting]

Just now, just...sare said:

Among my cousins on my Dad's side, there are four great-grandchildren: Piper, Seamus, Piper, and Cadence. Apparently one cousin FORGOT THERE WAS ALREADY a kid with the same exact name.

I have a cousin who has the same name as my sister (spelled differently--- my cousin spells it the traditional way).  However, my cousin goes by a nickname and my sister does not.  My cousin hates to be called by her full name.

My cousin is actually my stepcousin and was not born into the family.  She's always had a different last name.  My aunt said that if she were born into the family, the name would have been off limits (she was 5 when my aunt married into the family).  

[formergothardite]

4 minutes ago, 19 cats and counting said:

While everyone speculates on the 2nd generation fundies leaving upon marriage, the only way it is going to happen is if both are on board and put on a show until marriage.  

In the meantime, some do take baby steps away from the mothership (Alyssa Bates Webster) which should be applauded (as they can lead to something bigger).  But as nobody here knows these people personally, it is hard to tell from scripted reality TV and social media posts (face it, everyone would have wonderful lives if social media is to be believed).

However, some fundie kids do escape upon a parent approved courtship/marriage.  I believe that is how Rebekah? Keller got out.  (Then again Mike Keller does not have the best track record at marrying his daughters to decent men).

Baby steps are great, but what baby steps has she really taken away from IBLP? Nothing that I can tell. She changed from how her parents dressed to another IBLP approved way of dress. She married into an IBLP approved family. She does IBLP approved things. 

Yeah, lots of people do escape through marriage, but I'm confused why people thing Bobby is "fundie lite" when he still appears to have the same extreme fundamental beliefs as the Bates. He went to PCC, he interned at a very, very fundamental Christian church, AND he is approved by Gil. No signs of him being light on the fundamental beliefs. 

 

[19 cats and counting]

The only baby step I've seen from her is wearing pants.  She's also said a firm number for kids instead of the 'leaving it up to God' line.  But that is a wait and see.

But also wasn't Rebekah Keller's husband (who lead her away from IBLP--- hopefully I have my Keller sisters straight) approved by her father?

[JermajestyDuggar]

I think laying claims to names is silly. You can't claim a name. I don't think it's a big deal at all if cousins share a name. I have a ton of cousins. Some have similar names and many have the same middle name. It's not that serious.

[Palimpsest]

8 minutes ago, 19 cats and counting said:

some fundie kids do escape upon a parent approved courtship/marriage.  I believe that is how Rebekah? Keller got out.

Joshua McDonald was very much IBLP/ATI when Pa Keller approved the marriage to Rebekah.  He/they worked their way out several years later, having their first doubts while they were IBLP missionaries in either China or Mongolia, IIRC. It is a pity Josh took his exIBLP site down because it was a good description of how he gradually worked his way out of the mindset.  BTW, there is no record of Josh McD and Rebekah having finalized their divorce that I can find.  Josh McD still identifies as very conservative Christian - he just rejected the"legalistic mindset."  

 

12 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

I'm confused why people thing Bobby is "fundie lite" when he still appears to have the same extreme fundamental beliefs as the Bates. He went to PCC, he interned at a very, very fundamental Christian church, AND he is approved by Gil.

I'm confused too because I can barely see efforts to crawl away in the second generation, let alone baby steps.

Perhaps people don't know what PCC is ...  I've always like this article because it sums up PCC's (lack of) accreditation and wickedly Fundie attitudes in a readable manner:  http://samanthapfield.com/2015/04/13/5-good-reasons-not-to-attend-pensacola-christian-college/

Of course, there is plenty more about the Fundieness of Pensacola online.  The code of conduct alone makes fun bedtime reading.

[19 cats and counting]

1 minute ago, Palimpsest said:

Joshua McDonald was very much IBLP/ATI when Pa Keller approved the marriage to Rebekah.  He/they worked their way out several years later, having their first doubts while they were IBLP missionaries in either China or Mongolia, IIRC. It is a pity Josh took his exIBLP site down because it was a good description of how he gradually worked his way out of the mindset.  BTW, there is no record of Josh McD and Rebekah having finalized their divorce that I can find.  Josh McD still identifies as very conservative Christian - he just rejected the"legalistic mindset."  

 

I'm confused too because I can barely see efforts to crawl away in the second generation, let alone baby steps.

Perhaps people don't know what PCC is ...  I've always like this article because it sums up PCC's (lack of) accreditation and wickedly Fundie attitudes in a readable manner:  http://samanthapfield.com/2015/04/13/5-good-reasons-not-to-attend-pensacola-christian-college/

Of course, there is plenty more about the Fundieness of Pensacola online.  The code of conduct alone makes fun bedtime reading.

Thanks for the clarification about Rebekah Keller.  I would have loved to read his website. Do you know how many years they were married before they started to break away?  (Also was it them or Daniel who took in Suze when she broke away?)

It is too soon to see if a married Bates kid will break away from the mindset.  One test (as discussed in another thread on the Duggar forum) is to see if the kids will be homeschooled (which we are a few years away from-- the only 3rd generation Duggar old enough is being homeschooled).

Another will be to see if the cracks show after their 15 minutes are up (show cancelled, Taliban Dan loses, etc).  

Because I don't know much about Bobby, I'm leaving him and Tori out of this.  But in 5 years, I can see the Paines and Keilens continuing the tradition (Erin and Michael are the more conservative sisters).  I'm iffy on the Websters and Zach/Whit.  Also I think Nathan and Ashley will stay in the fold.

I can possibly see Tori and Carlin breaking away but I'm not sure what Bobby brings to the picture.  I don't think that will be known anytime soon.  But I think the younger kids have a better likelihood of getting out.  By the time they come of age, their sister moms will be busy with their own kids and the parents will be in the process of checking out.  Look at how feral Josie Duggar is.

[formergothardite]

33 minutes ago, 19 cats and counting said:

The only baby step I've seen from her is wearing pants.  She's also said a firm number for kids instead of the 'leaving it up to God' line.  But that is a wait and see.

Saying she is going to limit children might be seen as a baby step(pants for sure isn't one since it is pretty common in IBLP, even back in the 90's), but then again, there are plenty of IBLP families who did and do limit children. My parents were one of them. ATI/IBLP families aren't all carbon copies, most tend to cherry pick Gothard's teachings. Even his biggest fan Alfred does that when he admits he doesn't follow Gothard's rules about music. Doesn't mean Alfred is fundi-lite or taking any steps away from Gothard/IBLP, just that he didn't find that particular rule convenient. His family also dresses is normal clothes. 

I still am confused why anyone things Bobby is fundie-lite. Maybe years from now he will be, but he also might go more fundie. The only things we can learn about him now is that he went to a fundie college, interned at a fundie church and is fundie enough to be approved by Gil. 

[HereticHick]

21 hours ago, OrchidBlossom said:

At least specify a shade or something. Like if you wanna say "please don't use this particular mint green" okay fine. But all of green? Really?

Blush and Bashful

17 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

It looks like his mom might work at New Testament Christian School. So maybe he went there?

According to this PCC magazine, Bobby interned last summer at New Testament Baptist Church  as a substitute youth minister. http://www.pcci.edu/Update/2015/Fall2015/files/5.html  Sounds like he wants a church job. 

[silverspoons]

19 minutes ago, HereticHick said:

Blush and Bashful

According to this PCC magazine, Bobby interned last summer at New Testament Baptist Church  as a substitute youth minister. http://www.pcci.edu/Update/2015/Fall2015/files/5.html  Sounds like he wants a church job. 

I asked about his high school which a previous poster seemed to confirm he went to Hillsdale. There was a Robert Ellis Smith who went to Hillsdale and now attends PCC who is got investment licenses and is selling insurance and investments while in college. I guess it could be something for him to support his future ministry?

[formergothardite]

23 minutes ago, HereticHick said:

Blush and Bashful

According to this PCC magazine, Bobby interned last summer at New Testament Baptist Church  as a substitute youth minister. http://www.pcci.edu/Update/2015/Fall2015/files/5.html  Sounds like he wants a church job. 

The pastor of that church went to PCC. I can see him going into the IFB ministry. 

2 minutes ago, silverspoons said:

There was a Robert Ellis Smith who went to Hillsdale and now attends PCC who is got investment licenses and is selling insurance and investments while in college.

A lot of IFB pastors also have to work other jobs until they can snag a position at a larger IFB church. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

17 minutes ago, silverspoons said:

I asked about his high school which a previous poster seemed to confirm he went to Hillsdale. There was a Robert Ellis Smith who went to Hillsdale and now attends PCC who is got investment licenses and is selling insurance and investments while in college. I guess it could be something for him to support his future ministry?

Maybe he will work for his dad? 

[Palimpsest]

44 minutes ago, 19 cats and counting said:

Thanks for the clarification about Rebekah Keller.  I would have loved to read his website. Do you know how many years they were married before they started to break away?  (Also was it them or Daniel who took in Suze when she broke away?)

 

Josh McD and Rebekah married in 2004, aged 22 and 21 respectively.  Josh McD identified as Conservative Christian in 2009, when defending the Keller family against TWoP snark after Josh and Anna married on UnRealityTV.  I have that saved here (for some reason I can't link the exact post, but page 2 of this thread and scroll down a bit to my post).  

Suze lived with Josh and Rebekah for a while, but none of the sisters, or Daniel, ever seem to have cut her off.  The Keller parents were rumored to have cast her out.  They also gave Daniel's wife, Candace, a hard time at the beginning - by her own report when she visited us here on FJ.  Suze seems to be reunited with her family at the moment, as do Daniel and Candace.  Rebekah was never rejected by her parents - she was doing the right submissive thing by following her husband's lead - according to Gothard and IBLP.  

Rejecting IBLP and Gothard is hardly a marker for being non-Fundie or even Fundie-lite.  The Bateses, Kellers, and Duggars are all IFB too - and IFB is as Fundie as it gets.  Look at poor Esther Shrader, for heavens sake.  Talk about out of the frying pan and into the fire!  John Shrader has rejected Gothard.

Quote

It is too soon to see if a married Bates kid will break away from the mindset.  One test (as discussed in another thread on the Duggar forum) is to see if the kids will be homeschooled (which we are a few years away from-- the only 3rd generation Duggar old enough is being homeschooled).

 As also discussed on that thread - not homeschooling is far from a good indicator of escaping Fundyism either.  It was recommended but not enforced by Gothard and people can be plenty Fundie and send their children to Christian schools - or even (gasp) public school.  Just ask the members of Boerne Christian Assembly.  As spiritually abusive Fundy as churches can get - but many of the kids were not homeschooled. 

Eh, I'm coming to the conclusion that the problem is that some people think that Fundie = identical to the Duggars in every way.  Anything that isn't exactly as the Duggars would do is a baby-step away from Fundamentalism.  The Duggars are very small potatoes in the Fundy world and are hardly representative.

The Bateses and their dynastic marriages within the cult are far more influential - and dangerous.   Again, I see no signs of any of them running yet.

 

[trisprefect]

Is Hillsdale a school? Maybe that means that Tori's future spawn have the best shot at attending an actual brick and mortar school, since unlike JB Gil seems to take seriously the transfer of headship once his daughters get married.

[Fundie Bunny]

2 hours ago, just...sare said:

Among my cousins on my Dad's side, there are four great-grandchildren: Piper, Seamus, Piper, and Cadence. Apparently one cousin FORGOT THERE WAS ALREADY a kid with the same exact name.

I have two cousins named the same. The oldest goes by a nickname. And my youngest cousin also shares her name with a third cousin, second cousin, an aunt, ano a great aunt. It really isn't that big of a deal

[JermajestyDuggar]

51 minutes ago, trisprefect said:

Is Hillsdale a school? Maybe that means that Tori's future spawn have the best shot at attending an actual brick and mortar school, since unlike JB Gil seems to take seriously the transfer of headship once his daughters get married.

It looks like it's a very small school affiliated with a very fundie looking church. So no high hopes from me.

[trisprefect]

4 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

It looks like it's a very small school affiliated with a very fundie looking church. So no high hopes from me.

None from me either, but interacting on a daily basis with people outside your family is still better than only having siblings for company until you're old enough to travel around the country meeting up with your random fundie friends. Even if it's still thoroughly entrenched in fundamentalism, it's a slightly less shitty situation, like how being locked in a house for your entire life is slightly less shitty than being locked in a room for your entire life.

[Coconut Flan]

Quote

Eh, I'm coming to the conclusion that the problem is that some people think that Fundie = identical to the Duggars in every way.  

I think some people do have trouble seeing that there are quite a few variations on a theme within fundeidom. 

I have neighbors I see as fundie and neighbors I see as fundie-lite and it's a matter to me of extremism and rigidity.  And I the way I see them may vary considerably from how someone else would define them.

[formergothardite]

I have a "friend" I view as fundie even though she lived with a guy before marriage and she wears regular clothes and bathing suits because she kept all the really extreme, awful fundie beliefs. But then there is another friend who dresses more modestly and homeschools but doesn't have those extreme beliefs, she just goes to church and prays a lot so I wouldn't really consider her fundie.

It seems a lot of the time people focus more on the outward appearances instead of the actual beliefs. 

 

[JermajestyDuggar]

I dress more modestly than the Duggars (minus the skirts) and I'm not religious at all. I'm just an extreme never nude.

[Coconut Flan]

I think things like literal creation, young earth, absolute inerrancy of the Bible, and taking the Bible as exact literal truth are more fundie for me than dress.  Quiverful and the more extreme patriarchy and submission kind of march along with it for me.

[Nashville92]

I dress mostly modest, mostly skirts. I have some pants I just prefer skirts because they're comfortable. I also attend church. Not sure I would consider myself fundie. When I moved off to college my views and beliefs changed. I went to a state university in a rural area but most people were open minded. 

[elliha]

I think there is a huge difference between not being a fundie and not doing exactly the same as your parents. However, I do find choices that are different to your parents encouraging for children of fundie families even if they in the greater scheme of things are are still fundie. I like that Alyssa wears pants and seems to reject quiverfull ideas at least to an extent because while I don't think this must be a drastic change it is still not the same choice as her parents. It means that she can form her own opinions about this and that means she can form opinions about other things too down the line. It might not be that much of a change but still she hasn't turned out the carbon copy that is often hoped for with parenting methods like the Pearl's.