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live blog of Botkin webinar week 5


meda

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I don't think he means her parents are divorced. I think he's saying her father abdicated his patriarchal role when he sent Victoria off...to kindergarten.

Man, they are weird.

Yeah, that's how I read it; a jab at the ebil gubmint institution of public edumacashun.

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Guest Anonymous

Yeah, that's how I read it; a jab at the ebil gubmint institution of public educumacashun.

It was probably poor Victoria's first and last exposure to normalcy.

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Ben: for girls who feel that they are no suitors for them in their area, if you are really acting like a Prov. 31 woman, then rightious young men look for such women, and will scour the land for you

Shall we conclude then that neither of his sisters are acting like Prov. 31 women?

Honestly, none of these "Proverbs 31 women" act like her, but I'm sure that's only because the word "crocheting" was lost in translation somewhere.

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Ben: for girls who feel that they are no suitors for them in their area, if you are really acting like a Prov. 31 woman, then rightious young men look for such women, and will scour the land for you

*Snort* Clearly the righteous young men have not yet made it to Leavenworth, Kansas... or, for that matter, the Botkin abode.

I don't know, but it seems kind of arrogant to think you're more "sanctified" than other people in your area. I hope I'm wrong, but that makes it seem like he thought he was too good for the ladies of New Zealand. That's ... not cool.

Are you surprised that a Botkin thinks he is too sanctified (whatever that means) for mere-mortal women?

It's funny: fundies who seem less batshit crazy on the surface enforce constant supervision up until the wedding, but the uber-nutty Botkins let their sons go out in cars (gasp!) w/o chaperones. I'm impressed, sort of.

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So one of the kids said that their grandparents failed them? and the others agreed with that?

So much for multigenerational respect. If they're like this in public, what are they like in private? I hope the elder Botkins and Victoria's parents are gone to their rewards and don't have to endure such arrogant accusations. :pray:

My other thought: Who the heck actually benefits from this? Who are the families raptly particpating and watching and making notes as to the future of their children?

I want to find them and have a long, calm talk with them...

ETA: So much for having any confidence in the Botkins' word. They said they were going to discuss Geoff & Vic's early years. Hmpf. Well, maybe meda just didn't get to that, yet.

Meda --- thank you a million for bringing this to us. Well-informed is well-armed for argument.

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I don't know, but it seems kind of arrogant to think you're more "sanctified" than other people in your area. I hope I'm wrong, but that makes it seem like he thought he was too good for the ladies of New Zealand. That's ... not cool.

Also, if a girl can't find a man to marry, does that mean that the Botkins think that she isn't being a very good Proverbs 31 woman? Yikes! I hope not! But that's kind of how what they said comes across.

There's really no such thing as a "Proverbs 31" girl. For those rare people who attain to it, they're surely older. Their good business and homemaking skills would have come not necessarily from raising all their own siblings but rather from the experience of being married and mistress of a growing, busy household.

I noticed the comment above where Goeff (?) talks about how some boys fear to marry because their wives might not submit once they learn their new husbands are merely human.

Well, apparently a woman can't be merely human and must approach the altar with the skills of an aged matron before she's worthy of a man who has otherwise "priced himself out of the market" through his advanced sanctification. *snerk* (And his humility is no doubt another thing that made him too good for the average woman.)

And the sorts of guys who "scour the land" simply by looking at fundie girl blogs (such as Meredith's husband did), then basically order their brides off the internet, are squicky as shit.

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"David asserts that his character and sanctification had 'priced him out of the market,' " and Geoff says that any hint of "romance will cause the courtship to be shut down."

Mercy...I...I can...Barely. Breathe. in all this rarefied air!!!

:eusa-pray: :eusa-pray:

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There's really no such thing as a "Proverbs 31" girl. For those rare people who attain to it, they're surely older. Their good business and homemaking skills would have come not necessarily from raising all their own siblings but rather from the experience of being married and mistress of a growing, busy household.

I agree. As an example, if a girl's dad insisted on living in the backwoods, and she's forced to raise her numerous younger siblings and to clean all day, then she may not have the time to run her own business. Plus, what if she's not allowed to keep a blog? She may not even be allowed to leave the house too frequently. She'd be completely at her dad's mercy. I mean, can a girl in that situation really be blamed for not having suitors? It has nothing to do with her mad Proverbs 31 skillz. A girl in that situation would truly be a victim of her circumstances. Not only that, but not every girl is going to have the resources to start her own business, and not every girl is going to have a dad who owns his own business.

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The comments about Geoff and Victoria's parents "abandoning" them spiritually and Victoria's father abandoning her to government schools seem very disrespectful to me in the context of this marriage webinar. These people are so full of themselves, it's amazing.

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The comments about Geoff and Victoria's parents "abandoning" them spiritually and Victoria's father abandoning her to government schools seem very disrespectful to me in the context of this marriage webinar. These people are so full of themselves, it's amazing.

Quite. "Honour thy father and thy mother...unless they happen to have disagreed with you on something." Obeying your parents as an automatic duty becomes meaningless when you realise that most of the people preaching it never had to see it in practice from the point of view of the ones doing the obeying.

Geoff was able to do his own thing and then enforce his own thing on his children; since he doesn't work for an employer, his wife and children obey him, and his family is up there with fundamentalist royalty, it must be years since anyone's told him what to do. No doubt he's forgotten the frustration of being subject to someone else.

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Quite. "Honour thy father and thy mother...unless they happen to have disagreed with you on something." Obeying your parents as an automatic duty becomes meaningless when you realise that most of the people preaching it never had to see it in practice from the point of view of the ones doing the obeying.

THIS. I don't know much about Victoria's parents, but Geoff's parents were Christians. His father was in the Army, I believe. No doubt "spiritual abandonment," whatever that means, is a GREAT reason to stop listening to your authoritarian father. PAY ATTENTION, children of Geoff! If your daddy is doing something that goes against the word of God, you can kick him to the curb, even if he's using his fiercest bossy voice! And "goes against the word of God"? That's up for interpretation. If your dad thought for himself and re-branded the Bible-believing Christianity of his parents, then so can you.

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Ok, I am finally finishing my summary of week 5, and I must share the big news- THERE WILL BE A WEEK 6!!!!!!!!!!

The have been so many families who have sent in excellent questions on the Botkin courtship “rubric†(as Geoff refers to it) that they will do a bonus session this coming Monday. Just when I thought was out, they drag me back in.

Ok, after slogging through the hour and a half of proof texting and delusions of grandeur, here are the highlights I had not already mentioned:

First of all, girls do not court; they are courted by worthy young men. Never forget that girls lack agency and are always under the protection of a male relative or church elder. Further, as David chimes in on a question about girls having more than one “suitor†at a time, a “good†girl will be too busy doing kingdom work and taking the courtship process seriously (taking pages of notes, apparently) to be courted by more then one guy at a time. Geoff concedes that it is possible, if the fathers of the community approve, to allow group courtship.

A special treat was the guest appearance by David Noor, who acted as Nadia’s pimp during the courtship, since their father was unavailable for reasons previously discussed. He and Geoff had a terribly serious conversation about what a very great responsibility it was to shepherd a young man who was courting a female relation. They also reiterated that even a courtship that does not lead to marriage is successful because that means that the parties did enough work and realized that it was not a perfect match.

Speaking of Nadia’s current headship, David answered a question about why he was marrying in his late 20’s rather than at 21 like Ben. He was not mature enough, and there were sin areas he needed to work on (this also seemed to be an indirect answer to people who wonder why his sisters are not married). In fact, now that he is married he realizes how much work on himself he still needs to do on himself. He mentions that he was in a serious courtship several years ago that did not lead to marriage, and he was “tempted to be sad†but realized it was the Lord’s will. He is of course now married to his perfect helpmeet. In fact, all of the Botkin kids except the two youngest boys (Noah and Lucas, I think) have been in courtships already.

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Ok, I am finally finishing my summary of week 5, and I must share the big news- THERE WILL BE A WEEK 6!!!!!!!!!!

The have been so many families who have sent in excellent questions on the Botkin courtship “rubric†(as Geoff refers to it) that they will do a bonus session this coming Monday. Just when I thought was out, they drag me back in.

Ok, after slogging through the hour and a half of proof texting and delusions of grandeur, here are the highlights I had not already mentioned:

First of all, girls do not court; they are courted by worthy young men. Never forget that girls lack agency and are always under the protection of a male relative or church elder. Further, as David chimes in on a question about girls having more than one “suitor†at a time, a “good†girl will be too busy doing kingdom work and taking the courtship process seriously (taking pages of notes, apparently) to be courted by more then one guy at a time. Geoff concedes that it is possible, if the fathers of the community approve, to allow group courtship.

A special treat was the guest appearance by David Noor, who acted as Nadia’s pimp during the courtship, since their father was unavailable for reasons previously discussed. He and Geoff had a terribly serious conversation about what a very great responsibility it was to shepherd a young man who was courting a female relation. They also reiterated that even a courtship that does not lead to marriage is successful because that means that the parties did enough work and realized that it was not a perfect match.

Speaking of Nadia’s current headship, David answered a question about why he was marrying in his late 20’s rather than at 21 like Ben. He was not mature enough, and there were sin areas he needed to work on (this also seemed to be an indirect answer to people who wonder why his sisters are not married). In fact, now that he is married he realizes how much work on himself he still needs to do on himself. He mentions that he was in a serious courtship several years ago that did not lead to marriage, and he was “tempted to be sad†but realized it was the Lord’s will. He is of course now married to his perfect helpmeet. In fact, all of the Botkin kids except the two youngest boys (Noah and Lucas, I think) have been in courtships already.

If I were well into my twenties or thirties and someone referred to me as a "good girl," I would haul off and smack them.

Thank you, meda, for being willing to suffer through Daddy Geoff's "rubric" ("an explicit set of criteria used for assessing a particular type of work or performance," official definition per the Interweb). We, the members of FJ, salute you.

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They also reiterated that even a courtship that does not lead to marriage is successful because that means that the parties did enough work and realized that it was not a perfect match.

This is from the Botkinettes' So Much More, and it's about broken courtships (the emphasis is mine, of course):

If the daughter discovers there are things about the young man she's not happy with, the father can then tactfully help the daughter end the courtship and redefine the relationship between the young man and his daughter. The couple is then back to the brother-sister friendship stage, and the father handled the hardest parts of the "breakup" process. This brings up an interesting observation. Breakups shouldn't be common. Courtship isn't just another version of dating. It's not supposed to represent a successive string of temporary trial relationships. This is why the courtship should not begin unless the couple is reasonably certain that marriage will be the outcome.

If all the Botkin offspring (apart from the two youngest) have had broken courtships, then it sounds like broken courtships are pretty common indeed! Imagine having to tell all your deepest, darkest faults to someone without having first been allowed to build an emotional bond and then emotional trust with them? That's pretty much what courtship boils down to. If you break up, you've more or less told really, really personal stuff to someone you were never that emotionally close with, someone you're expected to go back to being friends with like nothing ever happened. Yikes! And since you're not allowed to form an emotional bond before engagement, it sucks to be you if you find out you're not emotionally compatible after it's too late (unless you want to deal with the stigma of a broken engagement or -- God forbid! -- a divorce). How is that better than dating again? :think:

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"if the fathers agree"

"if the fathers approve"

"if the fathers want"

How do they not see the weakness in this meshuggeh plan???

meda, you can claim dinner out from me any time we meet! Thank you again for doing this. Was there any promise of further info about Geoff & Vicky's history? I have no illusion that it would be transparent or forthcoming. It'll still be intriguing, just to hear the spin they put on it!!!

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David asserts that his character and sactification had "priced him out of the market" when they lived in New Zealand becasue theri were so few like minded families.

The Botkins need to read the new testament. Jesus had a serious problem with people like this. They were called Pharisees and his most angry words were directed at them.

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So, it's okay for courtship to fail, but it's not okay to date because you give pieces of your heart away?

How is that any different from dating? They claim that you should not court unless it's guaranteed to lead to marriage yet most of the Botkin children have courted in the past? Contradicting your statement, aren't we?

Sorry--they make this whole courtship/marriage thing way too seriously. If I couldn't even crack a smile or laugh with my boyfriend right now, I'd die. I love being able to laugh and smile when he's around--that's how I know we're compatible. Being all serious, writing down 50 pages of notes and writing a paper isn't going to help you much.

What a boring family.

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In fact, all of the Botkin kids except the two youngest boys (Noah and Lucas, I think) have been in courtships already.

So that means Isaac Botkin was in a courtship that failed!? Oh what I wouldn't pay to know who it was that he was courting and then didn't end up marrying! Whomever it is, she sure dodged a bullet!!

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Wait, does that mean the Botkin GIRLS have been in courtships too?

Yeah! Apparently, they've rejected a lot of suitors, too, before starting the process. That's my impression based on what meda said last week.

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Yeah! Apparently, they've rejected a lot of suitors, too, before starting the process. That's my impression based on what meda said last week.

No suitor can live up to Daddy... We're talking genuine emotional incest.

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