Armed Protesters take over Oregon Federal Wildlife Refuge Part 2

[Howl]

I fear that all of the Bundys will ultimately walk.  Too few guilty verdicts for a LOT of prosecutions.  Of course, Cliven Bundy will still owe a ton of $$$ to the Feds; maybe he'll lose his farm/ranch operation over that. 

Trump has also ordered a review of all national monuments created since Jan. 1, 1996, that span at least 100,000 acres.  This is specifically to screw with Obama's creation of the Bear's Ears National Monument in the last weeks of his presidency and the state's rights people are probably wetting their pants with excitement.  The review also includes Gold Butte National Monument created in that same time frame.  Gold Butte is where Bundy was illegally grazing his cattle. 

One more, Grand Staircase-Escalante NM (created during the Clinton years), is another cause celebre for the patriot/Sagebrush Rebellion/Sov Cit people and in the case of Gold Butte, Bear's Ears and Grand Staircase Escalante, are all in Mormon heartland.  Bear's Ears and Grand Staircase Escalante are yuuuuuuge monuments, encompassing millions of acres, in splendid amazing country. 

Here's an article with photos on all of the national monuments under review.  See The Sweeping American Landscapes Under Review By Trump

And finally, a documentary on the Malheur standoff will air on Thursday.  American Standoff

Quote

American Standoff: A documentary revisiting the armed occupation of Oregon's Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. (8 p.m. DirecTV; can be streamed on DirecTVNow. If you don't already have DirecTV, you can sign up for a free trial to stream the documentary at directvnow.com/) 

American Standoff director on Oregon occupation: 'We weren't trying to take a side'

The new documentary, "American Standoff," explores what led up to and what Ammon Bundy and others said about the armed occupation of Oregon's Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in 2016.

 

Edited May 3, 2017 by Howl

[Childless]

Why the hell do the Bundys think they'd get a better deal if the feds didn't own the land?  First of all, ranchers pay a pittance of a fee to graze cattle.  Seriously, it's next to nothing.  Second, if put up for sale publicly, there's no way the Bundys will out bid large corporations wanting to strip the land of any resource they can get.  And when they do snatch that land up, the Bundys will no longer be allowed to graze their cattle there or the corporation will fleece them with large fees.  It's in their best interest if the land remains in federal hands.  Jesus, Republicans are idiots.  Why do they support ideologies that would make their lived more difficult?  I don't understand this mind set.

[Audrey2]

2 hours ago, Childless said:

 It's in their best interest if the land remains in federal hands.  Jesus, Republicans are idiots.  Why do they support ideologies that would make their lived more difficult?  I don't understand this mind set.

This type of Republican can't get past the word government. Everything the government does or wants to do is always inherently evil, whether it would benefit them or not. They've been whipped into a frenzy by right wing television and radio to always reject anything the government wants to do, except go to war. They love the idea of their kids using big weapons, so they can participate in paramilitary groups when the war is over. This same "all government is evil" mindset is also why they wish to repeal Obamacare, even if they directly benefit from it.

[Childless]

6 minutes ago, Audrey2 said:

This type of Republican can't get past the word government. Everything the government does or wants to do is always inherently evil, whether it would benefit them or not. They've been whipped into a frenzy by right wing television and radio to always reject anything the government wants to do, except go to war. They love the idea of their kids using big weapons, so they can participate in paramilitary groups when the war is over. This same "all government is evil" mindset is also why they wish to repeal Obamacare, even if they directly benefit from it.

So they aren't all that bright.  I guess the fact that they elected Lord Dampnuts to represent them should have been the first indicator.

[Howl]

7 hours ago, Childless said:

Why the hell do the Bundys think they'd get a better deal if the feds didn't own the land?  

I think they  believe the Feds should turn the land over directly to them. Based on their long history of use, they see it as theirs! 

[Childless]

1 hour ago, Howl said:

I think they  believe the Feds should turn the land over directly to them. Based on their long history of use, they see it as theirs! 

Like the millionaires and billionaires in Congress and the White House wouldn't fast track the sale to one of their big donors.  The Bundys are exceptionally stupid if they think the feds will hand the land over to them.

[bashfulpixie]

7 hours ago, Childless said:

Like the millionaires and billionaires in Congress and the White House wouldn't fast track the sale to one of their big donors.  The Bundys are exceptionally stupid if they think the feds will hand the land over to them.

I think their actions of the last several years have proven just how monumentally stupid they are. So it wouldn't surprise me if they think that. Idiots

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

The FBI agent who fired at the pickup truck that LaVoy Finicum was driving and then lied and said he never fired his weapon has been indicted. 

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2017/06/fbi_agent_indicted_in_connecti.html

Quote

The indictment says Astarita, who served as a member of the elite FBI Hostage Rescue Team, "falsely stated he had not fired his weapon during the attempted arrest of Robert LaVoy Finicum, when he knew then and there that he had fired his weapon.''

Astarita is accused of lying to three supervisory FBI agents, concealing from Oregon investigators that he fired his weapon and failing to alert the FBI's Shooting Incident Response Team about his shooting as required.

I'm glad the prosecutors are following through on this, but it's going to be really weird if the only person who comes out of all this with a serious sentence is an FBI agent who missed his target.

I was interested in this part, because I've wondered why on earth this agent lied.

Quote

Other law enforcement experts privately questioned whether the agent didn't admit he fired shots because he missed his target.

If that's the case, he acted like a fool. Tell the truth and deal with the consequences. Lie and you end up in court and fuel a bunch of conspiracy theories. 

[Howl]

Thanks for posting this.  I came across it today somewhere and there's nothing else they could have done.   Because Finicum almost hit an agent (I think the agent managed to jump out of the way at the last second), there must have been a lot of adrenaline and maybe a little desire for revenge.  However, this is what they train for.   So much bad judgement.  

 

4 hours ago, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

I'm glad the prosecutors are following through on this, but it's going to be really weird if the only person who comes out of all this with a serious sentence is an FBI agent who missed his target.

Isn't that the truth.  

[AmazonGrace]

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-nevada-militia-idUSKBN1AB2XF

Bundy follower gets 68 years for role in armed Nevada standoff

(Reuters) - One of two men convicted in the first of several trials stemming from a 2014 standoff led by renegade rancher Cliven Bundy against federal authorities in Nevada was sentenced on Wednesday to 68 years in prison for his role in the armed confrontation.

Gregory Burleson, 53, of Phoenix, was found guilty in April of eight felony counts, including charges of threatening and assaulting federal officers, obstruction of justice, interstate travel in aid of extortion and firearms offenses related to a crime of violence.

[Howl]

14 hours ago, AmazonGrace said:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-nevada-militia-idUSKBN1AB2XF

Bundy follower gets 68 years for role in armed Nevada standoff

(Reuters) - One of two men convicted in the first of several trials stemming from a 2014 standoff led by renegade rancher Cliven Bundy against federal authorities in Nevada was sentenced on Wednesday to 68 years in prison for his role in the armed confrontation.

Gregory Burleson, 53, of Phoenix, was found guilty in April of eight felony counts, including charges of threatening and assaulting federal officers, obstruction of justice, interstate travel in aid of extortion and firearms offenses related to a crime of violence.

THANK YOU! for keeping up with this.  I'm gobsmacked!  Holy crap -- 68 years, and I'm assuming this guy will die in a Federal prison. 

It seems as though the trial for the Bundys will begin a month after this trial, but what was Todd Engel's sentence?

[AmazonGrace]

He will be sentenced in September, as per the Reuters link. 

At least, I'm assuming this bit refers to Todd Engel.

Quote

A co-defendant found guilty by the same jury faces sentencing in September.

 

 

Edited July 27, 2017 by AmazonGrace

[Howl]

I just came across a High Country News article that gave me a lot of insight into why Mormons like the Bundys hate, hate, hate the Feds. It's longish, and about Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument, but it digs into the profound anti-Fed, pro-Mormon bias that is so strong in Utah and parts of Nevada and Idaho. 

How budget cuts, a divided staff and politics hamstrung Escalante

[DaisyD]

That's maybe the most depressing thing I've read in a while.

[Howl]

On 8/4/2017 at 10:47 PM, DaisyD said:

That's maybe the most depressing thing I've read in a while.

Yup, very sad.  And with Mormons entrenched in the Utah BLM in that area, things will not change and will likely only get worse.   If you'll recall, Trump has started a "review" of national monuments and the new Bears Ears National Monument is at the top of the list, chopping block, as well as Grand Staircase-Escalante/Waterpocket Fold.  The won't be totally undone, but will very likely be reduced in size.  The local economies, who have come to be dependent on tourism, could be screwed, because a big Bears Ears National Monument, like Grand Staircase-Escalante, would be a big tourist draw. 

The lack of research is sad because I think the Grand Staircase-Escalante is just in the process of being "discovered" by outdoor magazines and recreation enthusiasts.  It's too out of the way to be overrun like Moab, but it will start to get much, much more visitation. 

About 20 years ago, I had a lot of dealings with the the BLM in Monticello, Utah.  There were no high-level Mormon staff in that small office, but I did get an earful from some of the non-Mormon rangers about the trials of living among Mormons in the tiny Mormon town of Monticello.  The BLM and Forest Service were two of the primary employers in town, plus two or so motels and a burger place. 

Just down the road from Monticello in Blanding, UT, the Feds did a sting of pot hunters/sellers of illegally gotten antiquities in 2009 that resulted in two suicides, one of them being the town doctor.  A STING IN THE DESERT  This didn't help the case with resentment of the Feds. 

There was also an incident in Recapture Canyon (between Bluff and Blanding) that was reminiscent of some Bundy action where people showed up in 2014 with 4-wheelers and their families to protest a dirt track that BLM closed off to protect archaeological sites.  Everyone was heavily armed, or course. 

Here's some aftermath on that protest: BLM rejects Recapture right of way, but OKs motorized trails

Oh, and I forgot to mention: F**k Ryan Zinke

Edited August 6, 2017 by Howl

[DaisyD]

This all reminds of the stories my parents tell of being stationed in Coyotè, New Mexico. It's a tiny little village that has a one room school house in the church, a shack for a post office, and a Forest Service ranger station. They lived there when I was born and my mom talks about how isolating it was because the only person that would talk to her was the other ranger's wife. She really looked forward to their weekly trip into Española for groceries because it was the only time she really got out of the house.

My dad, on the other hand, hand a much scarier experience there. He wrote a ticket to a Hispanic man for illegally grazing his sheep on forest land. This was a big problem on that forest as well, as the local Hispanic population saw that land as theirs to do with as they please. The man started threatening my dad, and dad just ignored it for the most part. He did, however, keep a pistol loaded with snake rounds (Sort of like shot gun rounds with pellets to create a spread of fire. Snakes are hard to hit with single bullets). 

One night, on his way home, he came upon a blockade of men in the road with the man he'd been having a problem with among them. He took his pistol out and steadied it on the rear view mirror as he slowly drove around the vehicles in the road. Everyone pointing shot guns and rifles at him the whole time. I believe he requested a transfer after that.

I only heard this story when dad called a few years ago to ask how long snake rounds are good for (he had apparently just been cleaning out old stuff and found them). This all took place in a very small area of New Mexico. The rest of the state isn't like that because the government of New Mexico isn't in on it. This stuff in Utah is on such a bigger scale. It's really pretty scary.

[Howl]

Thanks for sharing that recollection, @DaisyD.  I just looked up Coyotè on google maps.  It's still in the middle of nowhere and would have been a long slog to drive into Espanola!  

2 hours ago, DaisyD said:

This was a big problem on that forest as well, as the local Hispanic population saw that land as theirs to do with as they please.

I would guess that the genesis of this conflict lies in the history of land grants given by Spain and then Mexico. Friends in the Truchas area live adjacent to a community land grant still owned collectively by the descendants of the original community grant in 1754 and there are others in the area as well. Tierra Amarillo had a shootout in the 1960s (I think) over land grant issues. It's a very complicated history.  Water  priority issues related to irrigation have an equally complicated history beginning in the 1600s. 

Edited August 6, 2017 by Howl

[DaisyD]

4 hours ago, Howl said:

Thanks for sharing that recollection, @DaisyD.  I just looked up Coyotè on google maps.  It's still in the middle of nowhere and would have been a long slog to drive into Espanola!

Mom had to make that slog while in labor with me. She's a braver woman than I am.

That's some interesting history that I wasn't really aware of. I assumed that it had something to do with the area being part of their family heritage, and an unwillingness to accept federal oversight. Thanks for the info!

[Howl]

Ryan Payne has requested a 60-day delay in jury selection and trial because of the potential for the Las Vegas shootings to adversely affect his trial.  Because in his trial, there will be photos and video of Bundy supporters armed to the teeth. 

From High Country News: Bunkerville defendant seeks trial postponement

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

Thanks, @Howl! So, Ryan Payne and maybe both Bundy brothers want their trials separated from the mass shooting in jurors' minds.  Also,

Quote

In addition to the request to postpone, another defendant, Pete Santilli, has agreed to plead guilty to felony conspiracy. His attorney, Chris Rasmussen, has withdrawn all pending motions on behalf of his client. The Las Vegas Review-Journal reports that Rasmussen took the deal in part because the Las Vegas shooting “made him realize that this is a difficult case in trying to defend Second Amendment rights…. People aren’t going to be in the mood to hear about gunmen.” The paper also reported that plea deals for defendants Scott Drexler and Eric Parker were mentioned in court on Tuesday.

(my bold)

I'd think more of all of these Y'all Qaedas if instead of just wanting to be considered speshul snowflakes who "aren't like that mass shooter", they actually did some soul searching and realized that they are way too much like Stephen Paddock and they need to stop pretending otherwise. Conspiracy fantasist dimwits.

Edited October 5, 2017 by WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?
missed a bit

[Howl]

Quote

 another defendant, Pete Santilli, has agreed to plead guilty to felony conspiracy.

Well, that's one major gas bag deflated.  Curious about what his sentence will be.

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

Two of the bit players from the Nevada standoff got off with a slap on the wrist. 

https://www.reviewjournal.com/news/bundy-blm/2-plead-guilty-to-misdemeanor-in-bunkerville-standoff-case/

Quote

2 plead guilty to misdemeanor in Bunkerville standoff case:

Two Idaho men involved in the Bunkerville standoff case accepted plea deals Monday and likely will avoid further jail time.

Eric Parker and Scott Drexler each pleaded guilty to a single count of obstruction of a court order, a misdemeanor, before U.S. District Judge Gloria Navarro for their roles in the 2014 standoff that began over a dispute about federal grazing fees.

Both men were set to face a jury for a third time since being arrested in early 2016 on charges that included assault and threatening a federal officer, as well as underlying weapons charges. Those charges carried sentences of several years in prison.

“It’s a phenomenal deal,” Drexler’s attorney Todd Leventhal said after the hearing.

(my bold)

Yet again, I have to wonder how both of these stand-offs by armed men would have ended differently if the men involved had darker skin. Depressing.

Edited October 25, 2017 by WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?
minor mistake

[Howl]

Thanks for keeping us up to date, @WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?.  I wonder who's bankrolling the legal bills for these schmucks. 

Are either of those guys now convicted felons from their other trials?   The significance of that is not being allowed to own weapons, which would be a win for everybody. 

 

4 hours ago, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

Yet again, I have to wonder how both of these stand-offs by armed men would have ended differently if the men involved had darker skin. Depressing.

I don't think we have to wonder too much.  They would be in prison for a long time.  

[Ali]

1 hour ago, Howl said:

I don't think we have to wonder too much.  They would be in prison for a long time. 

Or shot dead by police when captured. 

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

@Howl--I wasn't researching, or anything. It was just briefly mentioned on my local news.  I did a quick search and then picked a Las Vegas website, because local news outlets usually have better coverage.

Edited October 25, 2017 by WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?
riffle