Merry Christmas Muslims. Heres Jesus.

[Clementine]

10 hours ago, Black Aliss said:

Hmmm. I've never heard of a Buddhist proselytizer. Or a Muslim one, for that matter. Likewise, I am unsure of the existence of Unitarian Universalist missionaries. Not saying they don't exist, but I'd need some proof.

The Dawah movement is strong in Europe, so it's just not Christians who are proselytizing. Some of the dawah teams are have been suspected of helping youths go to Syria to fight for IS or other extremist groups. My nearest kebab restaurant handed me a dawah flyer when I went there a few months ago. Uhm, no thanks, I just want your falafel with that delicious sauce.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawah

[Curious]

13 minutes ago, Clementine said:

The Dawah movement is strong in Europe, so it's just not Christians who are proselytizing. Some of the dawah teams are have been suspected of helping youths go to Syria to fight for IS or other extremist groups. My nearest kebab restaurant handed me a dawah flyer when I went there a few months ago. Uhm, no thanks, I just want your falafel with that delicious sauce.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawah

I'm not trying to start anything here, so please take this question in the spirit of genuine interest.

Do you still go to that restaurant after you were giving Islamic propaganda?   It seems to be being given religious propaganda at a restaurant is wildly inappropriate and if that happened to me, I would stop giving those folks my money, regardless of how delicious the food is.

I've never really had anyone proselytize to me before, so I'm not sure how I would handle it in person.  I am just one of those lucky people that puts off a "don't bother me" type aura (and now I think the wheelchair helps because people mostly treat me like an object when out anyway).

Regarding Catholics and proselytizing, I was Catholic from about 5 to 18 or so and I don't recall ever being asked to proselytize/evangelize nor do I recall any of the members of the congregation being active "recruiters."

[Clementine]

Just now, Curious said:

I'm not trying to start anything here, so please take this question in the spirit of genuine interest.

Do you still go to that restaurant after you were giving Islamic propaganda?   It seems to be being given religious propaganda at a restaurant is wildly inappropriate and if that happened to me, I would stop giving those folks my money, regardless of how delicious the food is.

I've never really had anyone proselytize to me before, so I'm not sure how I would handle it in person.  I am just one of those lucky people that puts off a "don't bother me" type aura (and now I think the wheelchair helps because people mostly treat me like an object when out anyway).

Regarding Catholics and proselytizing, I was Catholic from about 5 to 18 or so and I don't recall ever being asked to proselytize/evangelize nor do I recall any of the members of the congregation being active "recruiters."

 

I do, yes (their falafel is to die for), but we have discussed taking our business elsewhere. I was uncomfortable when I was given the tract/flyer (I would have been uncomfortable if I had been given Christian propaganda too). I just want to buy food, not get a religious flyer.

The kebab place is next door to the Muslim Brotherhood mosque and there are always a lot of people from the mosque at the restaurant. They could be the ones that had asked the restaurant to hand out the flyers and they agreed to make their main audience happy.
The people who work in the restaurant are from North Africa and I have never gotten the impression that they are fundies in any way. They are clean shaved, wear western clothes, crack jokes with the costumers, even the female ones, and have wished me a Merry Christmas.

So yeah, it is a rather strange situation that I am not sure how to handle yet. If it had been Christians that had given me a religious flyer, I probably would tell the owners that I was uncomfortable with the situation, but since this was muslim propaganda, it's more sensitive and I probably would be accused of islamophobia, so...

 

[Curious]

3 minutes ago, Clementine said:

 

I do, yes (their falafel is to die for), but we have discussed taking our business elsewhere. I was uncomfortable when I was given the tract/flyer (I would have been uncomfortable if I had been given Christian propaganda too). I just want to buy food, not get a religious flyer.

The kebab place is next door to the Muslim Brotherhood mosque and there are always a lot of people from the mosque at the restaurant. They could be the ones that had asked the restaurant to hand out the flyers and they agreed to make their main audience happy.
The people who work in the restaurant are from North Africa and I have never gotten the impression that they are fundies in any way. They are clean shaved, wear western clothes, crack jokes with the costumers, even the female ones, and have wished me a Merry Christmas.

So yeah, it is a rather strange situation that I am not sure how to handle yet. If it had been Christians that had given me a religious flyer, I probably would tell the owners that I was uncomfortable with the situation, but since this was muslim propaganda, it's more sensitive and I probably would be accused of islamophobia, so...

 

Thanks for responding.  I would be uncomfortable with any type of religious propaganda given out at a store or restaurant, as well.  

I've never received tracts or anything like that (other than the obvious LDS type stuff that you get when you are trying to get them to get out of your front door.  The Watchtower or whatever it's called.).

I can understand a mom and pop type shop wanting to keep their main customer base happy, but I think the line should be drawn when it comes to religion or politics.  If you want to give me a flyer to a community event like a craft fair or concert or something, fine.  Propaganda, regardless of stripe, no thanks.

[Whoosh]

I just want to say that, while I may be dead wrong, it is my understanding that while there is clearly variation among different factions or groups in the faith, Islam seems to rank on par with Christianity in terms of "is proselytizing a tenet of the faith and do members of the faith proselytize" (occasionally to outrageous extremes).  Again - to be clear - this is something I believe SOME members of the Islamic faith believe in and practice, not all.

Again, I am just saying what I think I know.  Please anyone feel free to correct me in any way.  And to follow up an unsure statement with a questionable link, I resubmit the wiki on this topic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proselytism#Islam

[Clementine]

14 minutes ago, Curious said:

Thanks for responding.  I would be uncomfortable with any type of religious propaganda given out at a store or restaurant, as well.  

I've never received tracts or anything like that (other than the obvious LDS type stuff that you get when you are trying to get them to get out of your front door.  The Watchtower or whatever it's called.).

I can understand a mom and pop type shop wanting to keep their main customer base happy, but I think the line should be drawn when it comes to religion or politics.  If you want to give me a flyer to a community event like a craft fair or concert or something, fine.  Propaganda, regardless of stripe, no thanks.

I agree, I don't think that business should mix with religion. The good thing is that now we at least know that they do, so we can stop buying from them. It's almost better than when they support some weird religious movement without being open with it so you don't know who you are doing business with.
I used to shop for clothes in a small boutique. After a few years I found out that the owner was a member of a controversial  evangelist church, founded with influence from the US mega churches. So she gave 10% of her income to the church + extra offerings that they were encouraged to give. I was not going to let my hard earned cash line the pockets of the crazy leaders  in that church, so I stopped shopping there.

 

18 minutes ago, Whoosh said:

I just want to say that, while I may be dead wrong, it is my understanding that while there is clearly variation among different factions or groups in the faith, Islam seems to rank on par with Christianity in terms of "is proselytizing a tenet of the faith and do members of the faith proselytize" (occasionally to outrageous extremes).  Again - to be clear - this is something I believe SOME members of the Islamic faith believe in and practice, not all.

Again, I am just saying what I think I know.  Please anyone feel free to correct me in any way.  And to follow up an unsure statement with a questionable link, I resubmit the wiki on this topic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proselytism#Islam

I think you are  right. I thoght that proselytizing wasn't used in islam, so I was surprised when I heard about the dawah movement. It appears that the modern dawah movement in Europe is funded with Saudi cash, so it could be a wahabi thing, not necessarily one that is common all over the muslim world. 

 

[sawasdee]

The more I learn about the things financed by Saudi cash, such as wahabi schools, mosques etc in poor muslim countries, teaching an extreme form of Islam, and the dawah movement, the more I hope we find an alternative to oil in the very near future. We need to invest heavily in alternative fuels that are practicable - I don't believe that ethanol, for example, has long term prospects. We need to wean ourselves off dependency on ugly regimes.

[Clementine]

Absolutely. The sad thing about the very strong Saudi influence in many parts of the world is that it is crushing the many local versions of islam, traditions, clothing, music etc and replace it with wahabism. Imperialism at it's worst.

I talked to a lady who was born and raised in Somalia in the 60's and 70's and she said that the Somali version of islam that was practiced when she was a child is gone, because of Saudi cash funding extremist preachers in Somalia, and so is the traditional Somali clothes that both men and women used to wear. Now it's Saudi style all over and she didn't recognize her birth country anymore. It must be both sad and scary to see your own traditions be taken over by foreign ones, especially when it's so hardcore as wahabism.

[sawasdee]

@Clementine I saw a documentary recently that said the ancient Sufi tradition in Pakistan is now under a fairly sustained attack.The Sufis are very mystical, and the diametric opposite of  Wahabism. It is almost the equivalent of Gothardism forcing out middle of the road Episcopal and Methodist churches, and becoming the only option for those wishing to worship in the Christian tradition. I think it is the most terrifying aspect of Islam today, and why those who are non Wahabi Muslims must be given every support.

[Whoosh]

5 minutes ago, sawasdee said:

@Clementine I saw a documentary recently that said the ancient Sufi tradition in Pakistan is now under a fairly sustained attack.The Sufis are very mystical, and the diametric opposite of  Wahabism. It is almost the equivalent of Gothardism forcing out middle of the road Episcopal and Methodist churches, and becoming the only option for those wishing to worship in the Christian tradition. I think it is the most terrifying aspect of Islam today, and why those who are non Wahabi Muslims must be given every support.

Again, though my knowledge is limited, this is my sense of things.  Which makes it ironic that I would take a stand and say that we have no idea if the Boston Bombers "subscribed to" or were influenced by Wahhabism or not, though it seems unlikely based on what we do know that they are appropriately described as "subscribing" to that form of faith.  However, I think we are facing a very complex problem and the only way to really make any progress in fixing things is to truly understand what the problem is.  I don't know if that makes much sense to anyone but me.

[samira_catlover]

14 hours ago, Black Aliss said:

Hmmm. I've never heard of a Buddhist proselytizer. Or a Muslim one, for that matter. Likewise, I am unsure of the existence of Unitarian Universalist missionaries. Not saying they don't exist, but I'd need some proof.

Oh, but UU missionaries DO exist! We preach the gospel of caffeine.  Many people don't know this, but there are dietary taboos among us UUs...you will go to hell if you do not partake of tofu, hummus, and/or Fair Trade coffee.

[Black Aliss]

1 hour ago, samira_catlover said:

Oh, but UU missionaries DO exist! We preach the gospel of caffeine.  Many people don't know this, but there are dietary taboos among us UUs...you will go to hell if you do not partake of tofu, hummus, and/or Fair Trade coffee.

Where do I sign up?

[Clementine]

I can't get the quoting function to work properly, but @sawasdee: Saudi funded wahabism seems to be on the rise everywhere in the muslim countries. It's scary.

According to the Somali lady I talked to, there was a Sufi tradition that was preached in Somalia and it was much more inclusive that what is preached there now. Apparently there is a struggle between the traditional Sufi tradition and wahabism (that supports Al-Shabab) among the Somali diaspora in Sweden, something that I think few politicians and officials understand. They seem to be quite happy lumping all muslims together and that doesn't make it easier for the muslims who don't subscribe to the more extreme version of islam.

[Terrie]

I live in a very Muslim area. Many local restaurants have flyers for local events, many of which are religious, but as long as no one is forcing them into my hand, I really don't care. Many people are probably interested in those events. 

 

As far as Christian proselytizing, I realize that some people believe it to be a critical part of the religion, but I don't. Believe what the heck you want, but make sure you talk about it in a way that recognizes not everyone agrees with you, because you're implying those other people aren't "real" Christians.

[Emme]

On 12/20/2015 at 10:41 AM, enigmata said:

I hold firm to my assertion that all Christians are called to share the gospel - I think using terms like proselytise and evangelise are clouding the issue.  Yes, we do this because we believe that our religion is the right one (why else would we follow it - and I know that not all Christians feel that Christianity is the only way but I'm talking as an evangelical) ?  Why is it disrespectful?  Do you never believe that you are right and somebody else is wrong?

I guess the main question I ask is about motive.  I liken it to having seen a really good bargain and wanting to tell your friends about it.  I want to share the gospel because I do believe it is good news.  I've gained such a lot through my faith that I love to talk about it.  However, I also respect that everybody has the right to believe what they choose to believe and, as I said before, find intrusive evangelism crass.

 

I think it's disrespectful because it's presumptuous and not asked for. 

I don't need to explain my beliefs to a stranger who knocks on my door or a person who tries to stop me on the street (and I would always stop because I thought they were looking for directions or something and didn't want to be rude, and then they'd start talking to me about Jesus) and I certainly don't need a stranger telling me their belief is right and the only way to live and mine is wrong. These are not people who have established relationships with me or who know me at all and it's not a conversation I asked for or invited. If we're talking about religion in conversation or I've asked a question, that's a different story. I don't tend to deal in absolutes unless there's fact involved. A bargain is a proven fact, so I see sharing a bargain different than sharing religious stuff. 

[Emme]

18 hours ago, enigmata said:

I only ever mention my faith in response to people talking in a way that assumes that any sensible person is an atheist.  It is only then that I would say 'hang on a minute' and put my point of view forward.  Because being an atheist is seen as the 'norm' it is perfectly normal for people to make very derogatory statements about anyone with any faith without knowing they are talking to somebody who believes.

This is funny to me, because you're having the exact experiences that I have and also dislike but for the opposite reason. I think we're on the same page here. If I ever said "any sensible person is an atheist" to you and we were hanging out, I would want you to stop me and say "well I believe x" and then I would ask a million follow up questions out of curiosity. But that's not proselytizing at all. That's a conversation between two people who mutually respect each other. 

[enigmata]

5 minutes ago, Emme said:

This is funny to me, because you're having the exact experiences that I have and also dislike but for the opposite reason. I think we're on the same page here. If I ever said "any sensible person is an atheist" to you and we were hanging out, I would want you to stop me and say "well I believe x" and then I would ask a million follow up questions out of curiosity. But that's not proselytizing at all. That's a conversation between two people who mutually respect each other. 

To be honest, I've never tried to proselytise/evangelise total strangers as it just feels wrong - regardless of what the Church teaches.  I'd be really uncomfortable trying to force my opinion on anybody (especially somebody I don't know).  To me, that would be supremely arrogant.  The only people I have conversations about faith with (apart from online  ) are close friends and family (my hubby).

I understand why my beliefs seem very assumptive to many which is why I don't generally talk about them.  However, I also won't deny what I believe when asked.

I'm sorry if people give you a hard time for being a 'non-believer'.  I just think we should have respect for people whatever they believe and only discuss it if both parties want to.

[Emme]

5 minutes ago, enigmata said:

To be honest, I've never tried to proselytise/evangelise total strangers as it just feels wrong - regardless of what the Church teaches.  I'd be really uncomfortable trying to force my opinion on anybody (especially somebody I don't know).  To me, that would be supremely arrogant.  The only people I have conversations about faith with (apart from online  ) are close friends and family (my hubby).

I understand why my beliefs seem very assumptive to many which is why I don't generally talk about them.  However, I also won't deny what I believe when asked.

I'm sorry if people give you a hard time for being a 'non-believer'.  I just think we should have respect for people whatever they believe and only discuss it if both parties want to.

I knew we were on the same page  I'm totally cool with people believing whatever the f they want, but I am not cool at people leaping out at me on street corners (which happens more than you'd realize when you live in a big city, like I used to). I'm also always interested in my religious friends' thought processes because I am just not wired that way. I agree, respect to all! Also thanks, it's not even that I'm a non-believer per say (I'm Jewish but not really religious), but that I am skeptical and more science based and believe very firmly in separation of church and state. Combine that with being a loud mouth and I get in trouble sometimes.

[enigmata]

10 minutes ago, Emme said:

I knew we were on the same page  I'm totally cool with people believing whatever the f they want, but I am not cool at people leaping out at me on street corners (which happens more than you'd realize when you live in a big city, like I used to). I'm also always interested in my religious friends' thought processes because I am just not wired that way. I agree, respect to all! Also thanks, it's not even that I'm a non-believer per say (I'm Jewish but not really religious), but that I am skeptical and more science based and believe very firmly in separation of church and state. Combine that with being a loud mouth and I get in trouble sometimes.

Am used to the science based bit - that's exactly where my husband is coming from.  I've always felt embarrassed about Christians who pounce on people in the middle of the street.  They make me cringe so I can only imagine how non-Christians feel!!

Usually have theological discussions when my husband's a bit drunk which is always fun

 

[Jencendiary]

Holy shit.

Talk about a flashback. The Hastons were the pastoral staff at the church my parents and sister attended for about 20 years. They were also the pastoral staff that kept my parents out of most of the like-minded churches in town after forcing my father off the deacon staff and forcing my sister totally out of the church for her spirit of 'rebellion.' 

To say they left Arkansas under a cloud of suspicion regarding financial mismanagement of the church's funds would be putting it lightly.

 

[FJismyheadship]

20 hours ago, Jencendiary said:

Holy shit.

Talk about a flashback. The Hastons were the pastoral staff at the church my parents and sister attended for about 20 years. They were also the pastoral staff that kept my parents out of most of the like-minded churches in town after forcing my father off the deacon staff and forcing my sister totally out of the church for her spirit of 'rebellion.' 

To say they left Arkansas under a cloud of suspicion regarding financial mismanagement of the church's funds would be putting it lightly.

 

Oh? Wow I had no idea. Everyone I know is all "omg the Haston's are incredible!!! Wonderful godly people!!!!"

one person I know made a vague comment to me once about something suspicious but he wouldn't tell me what and insisted it was just talk from haters who were jealous of their ministry.

i never really liked Cheree. My gut told me not to trust her. I liked mark well enough and their kids seemed sweet.

[FJismyheadship]

Wonder if she found us? She had a status yesterday about having creepers and serious stuff causing her to make her facebook page private. When someome expressed concern she said she doubted that person knew those idiots. 

But everything she posted befor yesterday is still public lmao