Merry Christmas Muslims. Heres Jesus.

[enigmata]

3 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

It is arrogant and that is one of the many reasons I left the faith. I think the world would be a pretty boring place if we all believed the same things. 

Have you been a Christian for your whole life? I am just curious. 

I was brought up by Christian parents and became a Christian in my teens.  I know some people take this to mean I've been 'brainwashed' but I ultimately made my own decision to follow Christ and now, in my mid forties, ultimately feel the same (although some of my views have obviously altered).  My faith is definitely a developing thing and I have no objection to hearing the views of others and am open to challenge.  I have studied scripture at Bible College and accept my interpretation is fairly evangelical (and acknowledge that others interpret it in a different way).  I admit, living in a fairly rural environment, I haven't had a lot of exposure to other faiths but would offer them the same tolerance as I would ask for myself. 

My own views are probably less conservative than those of my parents - I am far more open to different lifestyles and world views.

I totally get why you might see the opinion that Jesus Christ is the one true way as arrogant.  However, I don't see why believing something fervently is arrogant unless you try to deny somebody else the right to have their point of view or try to force others to see things the way you do (which is the major problem I have with some of the fundies we discuss on FJ).

[formergothardite]

13 minutes ago, enigmata said:

I was brought up by Christian parents and became a Christian in my teens.  I know some people take this to mean I've been 'brainwashed' but I ultimately made my own decision to follow Christ and now, in my mid forties, ultimately feel the same (although some of my views have obviously altered).  My faith is definitely a developing thing and I have no objection to hearing the views of others and am open to challenge.  I have studied scripture at Bible College and accept my interpretation is fairly evangelical (and acknowledge that others interpret it in a different way).  I admit, living in a fairly rural environment, I haven't had a lot of exposure to other faiths but would offer them the same tolerance as I would ask for myself. 

My own views are probably less conservative than those of my parents - I am far more open to different lifestyles and world views.

I totally get why you might see the opinion that Jesus Christ is the one true way as arrogant.  However, I don't see why believing something fervently is arrogant unless you try to deny somebody else the right to have their point of view or try to force others to see things the way you do (which is the major problem I have with some of the fundies we discuss on FJ).

The arrogance comes with the idea you have the right way and that no one else in the world does.  Don't you think it is pretty arrogant of you to say that your one way of believing is right for everyone? It is kind of like when I worked with this lady who was really, really into Mary Kay and she just couldn't accept the idea that Mary Kay didn't work for everyone. Yeah, it was kind of arrogant of her to assume that I didn't know what I was talking about when I said Mary Kay wasn't the right product for me.  That is what your doing, your saying that you believe I(and everyone else who doesn't agree with your beliefs) don't really know what I'm talking about when I say Christianity isn't the right path for me. You believe that you know better than I do in figuring out what religious or non-religious path I need to take. 

[molecule]

9 hours ago, enigmata said:

My own form of evangelism is love and acceptance.  Helping to meet the real physical needs of people to show the love of God.

Same here. I figure if Jesus attracted people to his path by loving them and acknowledging their physical and emotional needs, it's good enough for me. 

I've been handed tracts when I'm out and about. I always read them, but most of the ones I've seen speak more about abomination and sin than about meeting people where they are and walking with them. How do they think that supposed to attract anyone.

[violynn]

Pagans have absolutely no wish to evangelize, proselyize or convert anyone.

Also, it is so refreshing to witness a frank, honest exchange of ideas on such a charged subject and see everyone being respectful of ideas and opposing views.  Such anice change after the past few months.

Welcome to the board, @enigmata!

[enigmata]

31 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

The arrogance comes with the idea you have the right way and that no one else in the world does.  Don't you think it is pretty arrogant of you to say that your one way of believing is right for everyone? It is kind of like when I worked with this lady who was really, really into Mary Kay and she just couldn't accept the idea that Mary Kay didn't work for everyone. Yeah, it was kind of arrogant of her to assume that I didn't know what I was talking about when I said Mary Kay wasn't the right product for me.  That is what your doing, your saying that you believe I(and everyone else who doesn't agree with your beliefs) don't really know what I'm talking about when I say Christianity isn't the right path for me. You believe that you know better than I do in figuring out what religious or non-religious path I need to take. 

I get what you're saying and why but I don't agree.  You see it as arrogance and I understand why.  I wish I could explain myself better but I honestly don't have the words. 

I just have a deep love for Jesus and am so grateful for all he did for me.  I guess that I feel that, if there was another alternative, why would he have had to go through so much pain?  Why the Cross if it could be acheived another way? The emphasis, as far as I can see (and I'm not an expert) in other religions is on our actions and how we live whereas Christianity is about God's intervention through Jesus.  I'm not saying I don't see good in other beliefs but I see Christ as being the ultimate gift. 

I respect totally that you have chosen a different path.  I sometimes wish I didn't believe quite so fervently but I cannot reject the greatest thing I've ever received.

[formergothardite]

2 minutes ago, enigmata said:

I get what you're saying and why but I don't agree.  You see it as arrogance and I understand why.  I wish I could explain myself better but I honestly don't have the words.

I was in your spot once. At one point I didn't see the arrogance either, but one of the reasons you are having a hard time explaining why it isn't arrogant to believe that you know better than other people what is right for them, is that it is actually arrogant. It took talking to people who were insulted by this idea and then eventually leaving faith to realize how insulting and presumptuous it is to think I know the one right way for everyone. 

I know you said your form of evangalism is love and acceptance, but is it really acceptance if you think that the other person is wrong and needs to believe like you? Is it acceptance to want to change that person to be more like? If the goal is to lead them away from their beliefs into believing in your beliefs then you are accepting them, you are wanting to change them. 

Do you believe in hell? I'm wondering, if you do, how you reconcile that with being married to a person who doesn't believe. 

[sawasdee]

3 hours ago, enigmata said:

Again, I think the culture is a big thing - many in the UK have never heard the gospel whereas I don't think it is the same in the US.

Things must have changed a lot educationally since I left the UK - it was still compulsory to teach religion, including Christianity, in all state schools. There were also quite a substantial number of both Church of England and Roman Catholic schools that were part of the state system, and obviously emphasised their own faith.So certainly at school everybody was exposed to Christianity, to a greater or lesser degree.

You also said that atheists try to convert you, and that you share the gospel but do not push your faith upon others. Again, unless there have been some large cultural shifts in the last few years, the general view was that sex, religion and politics were topics best discussed only with family and very close friends - and to do so in a wider context was faintly embarrassing. Maybe if you are sharing the gospel, that is why you have had some pushback; it's how some react to embarrassment.

[Toothfairy]

4 hours ago, RosyDaisy said:

Geeze, why can't we all try to get along and learn more about each other's religion and culture? (rhetorical question)

I agree.  I'm a Christian but I'm opened minded and respectful to other religions. I wish others did the same. 

[enigmata]

8 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

I was in your spot once. At one point I didn't see the arrogance either, but one of the reasons you are having a hard time explaining why it isn't arrogant to believe that you know better than other people what is right for them, is that it is actually arrogant. It took talking to people who were insulted by this idea and then eventually leaving faith to realize how insulting and presumptuous it is to think I know the one right way for everyone. 

I know you said your form of evangalism is love and acceptance, but is it really acceptance if you think that the other person is wrong and needs to believe like you? Is it acceptance to want to change that person to be more like? If the goal is to lead them away from their beliefs into believing in your beliefs then you are accepting them, you are wanting to change them. 

Do you believe in hell? I'm wondering, if you do, how you reconcile that with being married to a person who doesn't believe. 

Yes I am married to an atheist. Yes I believe in some kind of hell.  And yes, at times, the whole situation is heartbreaking.

But I love him unconditionally.  We talk about the differences in our beliefs and I respect his point of view.  Yes, ultimately I believe that Christianity is 'right' but I can see where he is coming from in his very scientific viewpoint of life.  Whatever choices he makes are his choices and do not affect my love for him and my acceptance of him just as he is.

I would never say that he needs to believe as I do.  I merely explain why I believe what I do and listen to why he believes what he does.

13 minutes ago, sawasdee said:

You also said that atheists try to convert you, and that you share the gospel but do not push your faith upon others. Again, unless there have been some large cultural shifts in the last few years, the general view was that sex, religion and politics were topics best discussed only with family and very close friends - and to do so in a wider context was faintly embarrassing. Maybe if you are sharing the gospel, that is why you have had some pushback; it's how some react to embarrassment.

I only ever mention my faith in response to people talking in a way that assumes that any sensible person is an atheist.  It is only then that I would say 'hang on a minute' and put my point of view forward.  Because being an atheist is seen as the 'norm' it is perfectly normal for people to make very derogatory statements about anyone with any faith without knowing they are talking to somebody who believes.

[molecule]

I see arrogance as having more to do with thinking you're a better person than someone else because of what you believe.

I don't think it's arrogant to believe others would be better off with a different world view. I have often watched people I love make decisions or view things in a way that I believe will hurt them in the long run. It isn't arrogant to have an opinion.

We can fully accept others without agreeing that they are making the right choices. I can accept that they have a right to make choices that I don't think are good for them, that they know themselves better than I do, and that they are no more or less special than I am.

Our best friends are of a different faith than we are, and we have greatly benefited from that relationship. I'd like them to believe what we do, and I know they wish we believed like them--but we're the best of friends and don't bother to convert each other, even when we go to religious services with each other sometimes. We disagree on the best path to God, but we respect each other's right to walk a path of their own choosing.

 

[formergothardite]

36 minutes ago, enigmata said:

I get what you're saying and why but I don't agree.  You see it as arrogance and I understand why.  I wish I could explain myself better but I honestly don't have the words. 

I just have a deep love for Jesus and am so grateful for all he did for me.  I guess that I feel that, if there was another alternative, why would he have had to go through so much pain?  Why the Cross if it could be acheived another way? The emphasis, as far as I can see (and I'm not an expert) in other religions is on our actions and how we live whereas Christianity is about God's intervention through Jesus.  I'm not saying I don't see good in other beliefs but I see Christ as being the ultimate gift. 

I respect totally that you have chosen a different path.  I sometimes wish I didn't believe quite so fervently but I cannot reject the greatest thing I've ever received.

It doesn't feel very respectful that you can't accept that the greatest thing for you was the most harmful thing to me. I was a true believer for decades and it was awful, awful, awful, yet you want to claim that you know better than I do what is right for me? Can you not see the arrogance? Can you understand why this doesn't feel respectful at all? 

[sawasdee]

@formergothardite

If I am understanding @enigmata correctly, I don't think she is claiming to know  better than you what is right for you, but that she has such a strong faith that she regrets that others don't feel as she does, but will not interfere or criticise, and respects others' right to believe as they wish.

I don't understand her belief that the UK needs the gospel explained, though. We all studied it at school, and some chose to follow it and most did not.

[enigmata]

6 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

It doesn't feel very respectful that you can't accept that the greatest thing for you was the most harmful thing to me. I was a true believer for decades and it was awful, awful, awful, yet you want to claim that you know better than I do what is right for me? Can you not see the arrogance? Can you understand why this doesn't feel respectful at all? 

Seriously, think what you like.  I am only trying to explain what I believe.  I have accepted that you feel differently.  You want to think I'm arrogant - fine.  You are entitled to your opinion as am I.  We are obviously not going to agree.  I do not see having a strong belief as arrogant and do not see any lack of respect so I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

[Whoosh]

9 minutes ago, enigmata said:

 

I only ever mention my faith in response to people talking in a way that assumes that any sensible person is an atheist.  It is only then that I would say 'hang on a minute' and put my point of view forward.  Because being an atheist is seen as the 'norm' it is perfectly normal for people to make very derogatory statements about anyone with any faith without knowing they are talking to somebody who believes.

I just feel like I need to respond to this.  I did not enter into this conversation to say anything negative about believers or even say anything about proselytizing or evangelizing.  I didn't respond at all to the OP, though I find some things about that story fairly disturbing.  I chose to speak up when someone made the inaccurate claim that pretty much all faiths proselytize or evangelize and the ONLY reason we notice Christians doing it more in the USA is because there are far more Christians in this country than anything else.  Not true.  So I spoke up.  I used the dictionary definitions for words that are also the commonly accepted definitions for those words for society as a whole (although various subcultures or religions may use them differently).  I actually did not bash religion nor did I bash proselytizing or evangelizing to a very great degree (though I did say some people carry it to outrageous extremes).

Your response to me was to correct my use of words as if I don't understand them and to explain why I didn't understand the faith I was raised in (which my family still practices).  

I just want to make sure we are all clear on how the conversation here started.

[enigmata]

1 minute ago, sawasdee said:

@formergothardite

If I am understanding @enigmata correctly, I don't think she is claiming to know  better than you what is right for you, but that she has such a strong faith that she regrets that others don't feel as she does, but will not interfere or criticise, and respects others' right to believe as they wish.

I don't understand her belief that the UK needs the gospel explained, though. We all studied it at school, and some chose to follow it and most did not.

Hi sawasdee.  I'm not sure how old you are but we definitely didn't study the gospel at school (and I'm in my mid 40's).  Back then we would have learnt stories from the Bible but in more of a moral way than a religious one.  I think there is a difference between knowing bible stories and knowing the 'gospel'.

2 minutes ago, Whoosh said:

I just feel like I need to respond to this.  I did not enter into this conversation to say anything negative about believers or even say anything about proselytizing or evangelizing.  I didn't respond at all to the OP, though I find some things about that story fairly disturbing.  I chose to speak up when someone made the inaccurate claim that pretty much all faiths proselytize or evangelize and the ONLY reason we notice Christians doing it more in the USA is because there are far more Christians in this country than anything else.  Not true.  So I spoke up.  I used the dictionary definitions for words that are also the commonly accepted definitions for those words for society as a whole (although various subcultures or religions may use them differently).  I actually did not bash religion nor did I bash proselytizing or evangelizing to a very great degree (though I did say some people carry it to outrageous extremes).

Your response to me was to correct my use of words as if I don't understand them and to explain why I didn't understand the faith I was raised in (which my family still practices).  

I just want to make sure we are all clear on how the conversation here started.

Hi Whoosh,

That comment was in reply to a comment by Sawsadee which I quoted. It was in relation to people I meet in everyday life who just assume people are not religious and so make comments.  Absolutely nothing to do with anybody on this thread. 

[Whoosh]

7 minutes ago, enigmata said:

Hi sawasdee.  I'm not sure how old you are but we definitely didn't study the gospel at school (and I'm in my mid 40's).  Back then we would have learnt stories from the Bible but in more of a moral way than a religious one.  I think there is a difference between knowing bible stories and knowing the 'gospel'.

Hi Whoosh,

That comment was in reply to a comment by Sawsadee which I quoted. It was in relation to people I meet in everyday life who just assume people are not religious and so make comments.  Absolutely nothing to do with anybody on this thread. 

Fair enough.  I think a lot of what is happening in this thread can be best understood by truly understanding what happened in this thread, but I understand why you would be talking about the real world also.

[bjr70]

On 12/20/2015 at 0:22 PM, SpeakNow said:

On 12/19/2015 at 9:56 PM, roddma said:

I dont think there any religion who never tries to convert or feels it's what everyone should believe. We just happen to see more of what Chrisitans do since more people claim Christianity here. Im not going soft on any religion whether it be Muslim, Catholicism, Jew,or Christianity because they have the tendency to share the same arrogance. Many of them think they are 'God's chosen'.

Jews don't believe in Proselytizing. If someone wants to convert (according to more Orthodox Jews) they need to get request to convert and get rejected by the rabbi three times in order to prove this is something they really want to do.

I converted to Judaism 12 years ago, and the rabbi turned me down three times. It also takes 3 years and a lot of commitment. We don't proselytize, and in reality your rabbi is likely to try to talk you out of it at first. It's a big undertaking.

[formergothardite]

44 minutes ago, enigmata said:

Seriously, think what you like.  I am only trying to explain what I believe.  I have accepted that you feel differently.  You want to think I'm arrogant - fine.  You are entitled to your opinion as am I.  We are obviously not going to agree.  I do not see having a strong belief as arrogant and do not see any lack of respect so I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

I was just trying to help you understand how your beliefs can come off as disrespectful and arrogant to others. I understand that it is probably difficult for you to view it that way since it is often hard to accept that something we hold dear is hurtful to others but I know from discussions with other non-believers that I'm not the only one who feels disrespected when I am told that someone "accepts" me but what they really mean is that they want me to change my deeply held beliefs to match theirs or that they think they have the one right way that I need to follow. You can take this information and do what you want. 

48 minutes ago, sawasdee said:

If I am understanding @enigmata correctly, I don't think she is claiming to know  better than you what is right for you,

She is free to correct me, but from what I have understood, enigmata is saying her way is the only right way for everyone and if people think there are other ways than they are wrong. So basically she is saying that if people decide Christianity isn't for them, she knows better than them because to her it is the One Right Way For All. 

[enigmata]

39 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

I was just trying to help you understand how your beliefs can come off as disrespectful and arrogant to others. I understand that it is probably difficult for you to view it that way since it is often hard to accept that something we hold dear is hurtful to others but I know from discussions with other non-believers that I'm not the only one who feels disrespected when I am told that someone "accepts" me but what they really mean is that they want me to change my deeply held beliefs to match theirs or that they think they have the one right way that I need to follow. You can take this information and do what you want. 

She is free to correct me, but from what I have understood, enigmata is saying her way is the only right way for everyone and if people think there are other ways than they are wrong. So basically she is saying that if people decide Christianity isn't for them, she knows better than them because to her it is the One Right Way For All. 

To be honest, I really don't care what you believe. It really doesn't matter to me. I don't care whether you change your beliefs or not.  Yes, I strongly believe what I believe.  Yes, I believe it is truth. Yes, it's hard when I don't share my faith with the person I love the most.  But the idea that I'm so bothered about what YOU believe!!! 

All I want is that everybody has the opportunity to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ.  What they do about it is their choice.  I believe that I have been told to 'plant seeds' not to 'convert' people.

I'm sorry if you feel disrespected but I really do feel you are trying to project what you think my desires are.  And, honestly, you are way off the mark.

[Whoosh]

Again, I would suggest that you reread through this thread in order to better understand why the conversation has unfolded as it has. 

[Black Aliss]

22 hours ago, roddma said:

I dont think there any religion who never tries to convert or feels it's what everyone should believe. We just happen to see more of what Chrisitans do since more people claim Christianity here.

Hmmm. I've never heard of a Buddhist proselytizer. Or a Muslim one, for that matter. Likewise, I am unsure of the existence of Unitarian Universalist missionaries. Not saying they don't exist, but I'd need some proof.

[formergothardite]

52 minutes ago, enigmata said:

To be honest, I really don't care what you believe. It really doesn't matter to me. I don't care whether you change your beliefs or not.  Yes, I strongly believe what I believe.  Yes, I believe it is truth. Yes, it's hard when I don't share my faith with the person I love the most.  But the idea that I'm so bothered about what YOU believe!!! 

All I want is that everybody has the opportunity to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ.  What they do about it is their choice.  I believe that I have been told to 'plant seeds' not to 'convert' people.

I'm sorry if you feel disrespected but I really do feel you are trying to project what you think my desires are.  And, honestly, you are way off the mark.

You don't have to care how non-Christians might feel about your beliefs. If this is something you aren't interested in knowing, that is fine. I'm not trying to project onto you anything, I was just letting you know how your beliefs and actions with "planting seeds" might be perceived by others. If this is not something you care to learn, that is perfectly fine. You had mentioned earlier that you were sometimes uncomfortable with the idea that you might seem arrogant with your belief, so I thought you might want to know. I don't think you are purposely trying to offend people or come off as arrogant, but I guess I did a poor job at conveying how your attitude and belief system might appear to someone who doesn't share your beliefs. 

 

[roddma]

It took me until i was out of High school to realize the arrogance of the Church of Christ belief of being the one true church and the phrase 'member of the church'. The sad thing is followers of it dont know how arrogant they sound. However, just believing in or feeling grateful about a belief in God/Christ/Alla/Buddha isnt arrogance itself It's how you treat others who dont share it..Some people can't stop at sharing a belief. They can't resist a temptation to convert(cough cough Jim Bob and the atheist)
And around 75% of the US is Christian, but I feel that will drop as religion itself is seeing declines.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithonthecouch/2015/05/losing-my-religion-why-people-are-really-leaving-the-church-its-not-what-you-think/

[PennySycamore]

2 hours ago, Black Aliss said:

Hmmm. I've never heard of a Buddhist proselytizer. Or a Muslim one, for that matter. Likewise, I am unsure of the existence of Unitarian Universalist missionaries. Not saying they don't exist, but I'd need some proof.

Yeah, we Buddhists don't proselytize and really never have, at least since the reign of emperor Asoka in India in the Third Century, BCE.  Most religions, not just Judaism and Buddhism, don't proselytize.

[Peas n carrots]

2 hours ago, Black Aliss said: Hmmm. I've never heard of a Buddhist proselytizer. Or a Muslim one, for that matter. Likewise, I am unsure of the existence of Unitarian Universalist missionaries. Not saying they don't exist, but I'd need some proof.

Yeah, we Buddhists don't proselytize and really never have, at least since the reign of emperor Asoka in India in the Third Century, BCE.  Most religions, not just Judaism and Buddhism, don't proselytize.

As I understand today Catholics in the US do not proselytize either. Im not sure how much proselytizing/evangelizing happens in the missions worldwide - perhaps someone could answer if those are more centered around a social justice perspective or around a true religious mission?