Titus2's Steve Maxwell: Seriously Anti-Fun

[mango_fandango]

I don't really care what their reasons were, Terri and Steve stole these kids' chance at a normal life. They stole their ability to make choices, by poisoning their minds with a crippling fear of the most benign things in the world. I mean birthday parties- ffs, who the hell thinks of that? But when you think about it, it's the first rule of abuse: isolation. The isolated them, the convinced them that they were the only "good" ones, and then they made them afraid of everyone else. It's disgusting.

How on earth do they look across the breakfast table at their rapidly aging adult children day after day and not feel mind numbing guilt??? Do they care that their daughter who is approaching her mid-thirties has never known the joy of falling in love, holding a new baby (that actually belongs to her), or even simple things like decorating her own house?? She's never even gone to the grocery and wandered around pondering what to cook for dinner. No, she's got to have an accountability partner- in her 30s .

Steve and Terri got to make their choices. They got to raise their kids. Now they are forcing their daughters to stay and live the life of an elderly person. It's ridiculous.

This is the problem with the fundie homeschool movement. The Maxwell chidults are part of the first generation of pretty much entirely-homeschooled fundies, growing up in the 80s as they did. They have NEVER experienced the outside world apart from through a carefully selected filter. At least the Duggars and Bateses had/have a TV show. At least they've actually travelled the world (even if it is a dubious 'mission trip') and are letting their kids get married. Homeschooling is the perfect way to isolate yourself and your family from the outside world. Without worldly people to convince you otherwise, it's very easy to force your kids to believe everything you say. Kids are like sponges, remember? They take in everything they're told. Young, non-school-aged kids grow up thinking their world is normal and then are exposed to different ways of doing things, through going to public school etc. Johnny might have a baby brother, but Pete has a big sister... and so on. They originally couldn't conceive of people living any other way, purely because they were not exposed to it (plus they're little). Steve has stated somewhere that he cannot imagine how people live without Jesus, and has passed this on to his kids.

Snark site GOMI has a very short thread on the Maxwells, and BAM on the first page someone mentions the Maxwells being like a one-family cult. I watched a documentary on YouTube about Narcissistic Personality Disorder. It outlined nine traits of NPD and stated that five were needed for a clinical diagnosis to be made. Symptoms:

Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements).

"I am Stevehovah. What I say goes." "Look at us! None of our eight kids have rebelled, ever! We've self-published LOADS of books! Aren't we just such awesome Godly people??"

Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love.

Steve believes that the only way to live, to put it bluntly, is to live for Jesus and to know where you go when you die. Only then can you "succeed".

Believes that he or she is “special†and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions).

We don't call him "Stevehovah" for nothing. He only associates with people exactly like him.

Requires excessive admiration.

See above.

Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations.

Fundieism at it's finest. First-time obedience is the norm, his family must live as he God dictates. Family cannot move beyond their street. Etc.

Is inter-personally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends.

TERI AND HER DEPRESSION AND HIM FORCING HER TO HOMESCHOOL.

Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others.

See above. He does not care that Teri has depression; the outside world must be avoided at all costs.

Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her.

Steve is not envious of others. He does likely believe that others are jealous of him, his Godly life, and how none of his kids have rebelled.

Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

"I can't work at this company anymore there are wimmin around!" If people don't believe exactly what he does... you're a terrible person and you're gonna go to Hell..

The documentary mentioned that a cult leader has at least 7 or 8 of these traits. Some of what I wrote above may be a little sketchy, so I'd say 7 or 8 is about right. We all know what happened with Jonestown etc... this family is gonna blow somehow. And it will be ugly.

(Sorry for the long post. TL, DR: Steve is mental. He likely has NPD. He and Teri have screwed up their kids beyond comprehension. Far from them being "great conversationalists" and "well educated" they have totally crippled them in every way. Fuck you, Steve.)

[danvillebelle]

The birthday horror story makes me sad, but doesn't surprise me.

I have a birthday party horror story from the Bradricks that I'm sure Steve would love and heartily approve of. On their old DVD set "Raising Godly Children in an Ungodly World", Michael related how one of their daughters (he initially said just child but then let slip it was a girl) had been planning a birthday party and had sent out invitations that she had carefully handmade, etc. (I don't know who she invited...they moved around a lot and I don't think they were quite as isolated as the Maxwells). Anyway...apparently, a couple of weeks before the party, this girl was having some "serious behavior problems". They warned her that if she didn't get her heart right (we all know what that means - obey or we'll spank you), the party would be cancelled. Well - she had a slip-up or did something wrong, and they made this child PERSONALLY CALL AND UN-INVITE ALL THE GUESTS AND EXPLAIN WHY. Can you fucking imagine?

:cry:

They let her have the party a few weeks later, after her heart was right they beat her into submission. Some consolation prize.

[shedemei]

The kids get to choose from a list of lunches they already eat each week? Wow, what a special treat.

[CyborgKin]

How could asking other parents about birthday activities be awkward? The Maxwells are so good at the art of conversation!11!

Also, from the anti-fun post:

Sadly, might the two most common results of so-called “fun learning†be: wearing Mom out and the children’s not be willing to learn unless it is fun.

I cannot parse the overall sentence structure, nor can I fathom what "the children's not be willing" means. He should have gotten one of the many editors (who definitely aren't just Steve) that go over the Maxewells' publications to take a look.

[AmazonGrace]

Sadly, might the two most common results of so-called “fun learning†be: wearing Mom out

The voice of authority about something that he's never experienced...?

Was their homeschool EVER fun learning? If the homeschooling parent is depressed, it may tend to be just more of the dreary stuff, even if they aren't actively trying to avoid fun in all of its forms, and if you're always down, trying to come up with fun stuff to do with the kids might indeed wear you out. But the answer is not to forbid fun learning, it's to get mental health help and enroll the kids in a nice school if you can't cope with their educational demands

In the end I think many mothers would find fun learning activities to be less tiresome and depressing because the kids get more engaged, and working with happy, interested, excited kids is less depressing than working with bored, depressed, angry or resigned kids.

and the children’s not be willing to learn unless it is fun.

Hey Steve, it's called parenting, you teach your kids that some things are fun and some things are done even though they're not fun.

No one really believes that your children are more eager and more willing to learn than any other people's kids because learning was never fun. But maybe you've spanked them enough to teach them to pretend.

[salex]

I don't really care what their reasons were, Terri and Steve stole these kids' chance at a normal life. They stole their ability to make choices, by poisoning their minds with a crippling fear of the most benign things in the world. I mean birthday parties- ffs, who the hell thinks of that? But when you think about it, it's the first rule of abuse: isolation. The isolated them, the convinced them that they were the only "good" ones, and then they made them afraid of everyone else. It's disgusting.

How on earth do they look across the breakfast table at their rapidly aging adult children day after day and not feel mind numbing guilt??? Do they care that their daughter who is approaching her mid-thirties has never known the joy of falling in love, holding a new baby (that actually belongs to her), or even simple things like decorating her own house?? She's never even gone to the grocery and wandered around pondering what to cook for dinner. No, she's got to have an accountability partner- in her 30s .

Steve and Terri got to make their choices. They got to raise their kids. Now they are forcing their daughters to stay and live the life of an elderly person. It's ridiculous.

I am not the most dedicated follower of the Maxwells, but I suspect they believe their parenting has been an unquestionable success. Boys married off (better to marry than to burn, and boys would burn, AND expand the Maxwell name) Girls safe at home under Steve's headship, because girls don't "Burn" and because who would be a better headship? Paul says being Single is the best option, so I'm sure the girls get a good dose of that teaching.

[usmcmom]

I think Steve's Anti-Fun belief stems from lack of confidence in his parenting.

His kids can't go out alone because they can't be trusted to follow their values and the teachings of their parents.

They can't be alone with the person they intend to marry because they can't be trusted to manage their feeling and follow their values and teachings of their parents.

They can't be allowed to have fun because they can't be trusted to show discernment and act appropriately in each situation; meaning, they can't be trusted to follow their values and teachings of their parents.

It's just part of maturing - learning when is an appropriate time to laugh and have fun; and when is an appropriate time to be calm and sober. For instance, a very young child can be taught to sit through a wedding and be reminded "When we get to the reception, you may move around with your friends and have fun. Now is the time to sit quietly." Our children learned that church services were a time for quiet but AFTER church they were allowed to play outside or in the fellowship hall with other kids.

Once again, Teri and Steve clearly did not teach their children properly if they were unable to instill this type of discernment in them. They took the lazy way out - rather than try to teach them self control and allow them that natural growth - they "outlawed" fun. Seriously, can't these fundies just ONCE show some confidence in their parenting style and beliefs. All they show us is "This is how we raised our kids, but it's probably not a strong method because we still can't trust them." :doh:

[MamaJunebug]

I was very surprised that he doesn't enjoy reading the Bible, and that he admitted it like he thinks nobody does, it's just a boring chore Christians have to do over and over and over.

My guardian angel just said, "whah-HUH?!" because my response to this was, "The Bible ain't boring!" -- I surprised myself, too, because for decades I thought it was a snore.

Here's the thing: when it's taught by knowledgeable individuals who have sought training in how to interpret it, how not to misinterpret it, its fascinating.

Steve has not been taught. Why should he seek it out? He's got a direct line to the Trinity and that's all anyone needs to say about that. And his family suffer.

I told this story back when Kristina Keepsakes was, oh, pregnant with #1 and insisting that men ALWAYS have worn pants. So it's time for me to repeat myself and not apologize.

Example of Bible learning being intriguing and not at all boring:

Some scholars believe that everything in THB is about Jesus of Nazareth. The parable of the prodigal son (rebellious kid demands his inheritance while Dad is still living, squanders it, crawls home figuring he'll be taken care of, dad rejoices & treats him like a king, faithful brother protests, dad says, "rejoice with me! And yes, you're always with me" but he doesn't exactly thank him for his service).

Many - Steve among them, I'd bet - read this and intone that prodigals are just darn blessed to have a forgiving God and we faithful are wrong to complain.

The ones I listen to, expand upon it thusly:

They told the parable to an old timer in the Mideast desert who still lives the ancient way. His reaction: "That father is exceptional! For an older, rich man to run to meet ANYONE means that his robes are flying up and his junk might be seen and that would be humiliating! hey, rich older men NEVER run, they walk, befitting their station!"

My (sic) scholars say, "Jesus, being God, is the ultimate older man of great riches. Yet He was so eager to welcome us prodigals that He gave up all His dignity and became human AND was humiliated maximally on the cross. The title character of this parable ought to be The Forgiving Father. And as for the faithful brother who's pouting, yes, God tells us, 'you're always with me and I appreciate that; rejoice with me over others who returned'."

Whether or not this jibes with my long-held understanding of the parable, I have to say -- it makes me say, "huh! Really? Let me think about that! Do other parables need new titles, new interpretations from a POV of "where is Jesus in this parable" as opposed to "what does this parable teach us about how rotten we are"

I mean, I first heard this taught a good 5, 6 years ago and it STILL gets my brain a workin'.....

.... Oh wait, there we have it: it doesn't appear as though Steve wants his children working their brains.

Teaching the Bible as a boring book is the intellectual equivalent of feeding cult members a diet mostly of starches. Keep them dull. It's tragic, really.

[Jana814]

I think that Steve & Teri think they r the worlds best parents. Their kids do what they say & don't question it.

[nokidsmom]

I am not the most dedicated follower of the Maxwells, but I suspect they believe their parenting has been an unquestionable success. Boys married off (better to marry than to burn, and boys would burn, AND expand the Maxwell name) Girls safe at home under Steve's headship, because girls don't "Burn" and because who would be a better headship? Paul says being Single is the best option, so I'm sure the girls get a good dose of that teaching.

I agree that that Steveovah and Teri believe their parenting style is a success. That their nearly mid-30's daughter is still at home having not married and have a family of her own? No one has been godly enough for Steveovah. Or that she didn't find anyone godly enough. Or she's been brainwashed by her parents chosen to remain single. Joseph's failed engagement? It was that evil Liz and her ungodly, fun-loving family, not the fact that she and her family discovered the cray cray that is Maxhell and bailed before it was too late. They have rationalized these things as being because of something else or somebody else other than their own parenting. They will never look at themselves and ask what went wrong. I suspect that down deep Steve and Teri like having their daughters, in particular, still at home, fussing over them, keeping the household going; in short, making their parents a priority at the expense of their own lives. What would happen if they left? Both would have to cope with doing the necessary work themselves not to mention having to live without the ego boost of making themselves, in an twist of irony, their daughter's idols.

Their parenting is entirely and extremely fear driven. What will happen if they let go just a little bit? What choices will the kids make if they are not at home or in proximity enough to the Maxhell compound? What if they discover things that make them realize their parents are wrong? Are they afraid of what other people would think never mind that the family is so insular at this point no one would know or care? Are they so insecure that they see a child making a different choice as invalidating and need to avoid it at all costs? I would argue that the kids probably could discern things better than what their parents give them credit for but it's the parents' extreme fear over "what ifs", including the loaded prospect of going to hell, that keeps them from even exercising the smallest amount in order to cope with that fear.

And not to mention the sheer unfairness of parents having lived their own lives and exercising their own choices while denying their children the same. It's just wrong and we see this in a number of fundie families, not just the Maxwells. It's sad that none of their children see this, though maybe it's just as well, as it might make them mad enough to go Lizzie Borden.

[singsingsing]

I think it's entirely possible that Sarah has been the one turning down potential suitors all along because she's terrified of getting married. Her parents have brainwashed her into thinking that the outside world is evil and scary. Even most other Christians are sinful and lead terrible lives. They associate almost only with family. Their 'church' is in a nursing home. I can imagine in her position being terrified of moving away, terrified of suddenly being considered a responsible adult, terrified of sex, terrified of the comparative independence that would come with being a married woman vs. a stay-at-home-daughter. And look at the model for motherhood she's had: do you think Sarah looks at Teri and thinks to herself, "Yes, that is what I hope to become"? In her subconscious she must equate motherhood with depression, stress, anger, resentment, and pain. I wouldn't be jumping at the chance to have all that, either.

[blessalessi]

In Hearts, Sarah describes herself as easily led, and tending to want to please others. She gives this as a reason she needs and benefits from sheltering. Sadly I suspect it is the reason she accepted sheltering, and is the cause of her unwanted singleness. :cry:

[anjulibai]

A though occurred to me: What if Teri and Steve are afraid of being alone with each other? Maybe they don't like the idea of living just the two of them, because they don't know how to interact with each without their children around?

[nokidsmom]

In Hearts, Sarah describes herself as easily led, and tending to want to please others. She gives this as a reason she needs and benefits from sheltering. Sadly I suspect it is the reason she accepted sheltering, and is the cause of her unwanted singleness. :cry:

To the bolded: it raises questions of why she got that way. Maybe it's her personality I would say this is more likely a result of her home environment and her upbringing.

Her parents have made her so she has no desire to break away. Yet, it's officially her "choice" to remain sheltered. :angry-banghead:

[nokidsmom]

A though occurred to me: What if Teri and Steve are afraid of being alone with each other? Maybe they don't like the idea of living just the two of them, because they don't know how to interact with each without their children around?

I thought of this too. The children might be a buffer between them. That's not an unusual thing either.

[blessalessi]

To the bolded: it raises questions of why she got that way. Maybe it's her personality I would say this is more likely a result of her home environment and her upbringing.

Her parents have made her so she has no desire to break away. Yet, it's officially her "choice" to remain sheltered. :angry-banghead:

The evidence in the Corners suggests she does have a different personality to, say, John, I think. Amongst the girls, she doesn't seem to have the same thirst for new learning as Anna, or the artistic interest of Mary. She writes books because her parents asked her to do so. She seems to be someone who enjoys structure and following rules. And she has little or no curiosity or imagination as evidenced by the Moody books. :cry:

[NotALoserLikeYou]

Just popping in on this other Maxwell thread to say that I posted some info about Nathan and Melanie traveling to her brother's non-fundie wedding in North Carolina the other day on the Road Trip thread in case anyone is interested.

[SPHASH]

Just popping in on this other Maxwell thread to say that I posted some info about Nathan and Melanie traveling to her brother's non-fundie wedding in North Carolina the other day on the Road Trip thread in case anyone is interested.

Just looking at those pics now. Sounds like the Mahers and the bride's family believe like the Maxwells...only siblings are allowed to be in the wedding party. Anyway it looks like the wedding and reception was FUN! Fuck you Steve. I hope Nate and Mel cut the rug a bit.

[Jana814]

I thought of this too. The children might be a buffer between them. That's not an unusual thing either.

Both very good points.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

Just looking at those pics now. Sounds like the Mahers and the bride's family believe like the Maxwells...only siblings are allowed to be in the wedding party. Anyway it looks like the wedding and reception was FUN! Fuck you Steve. I hope Nate and Mel cut the rug a bit.

No, did you see the Knot site? There were a bunch of friends in the wedding party. The bride is a Christian but she wears shorts and dates normally. Melanie is the only fundie left out of the mahers.

[CyborgKin]

Steve didn't actually say that learning mustn't be fun, or can't be enjoyable. Just that kids shouldn't be taught to only do things that are fun, to the point that they won't do anything that they don't see as fun. I asked my father what he thought of Steve's post and he said he agreed completely, BUT he didn't at all interpret it to mean that Steve is anti-fun. Then my mother mentioned that she'd been listening to "How to Teach Your Children to Love Learning" by Victoria Botkin. Because loving to learn whether it's fun or not is important.

[sparkles]

Steve didn't actually say that learning mustn't be fun, or can't be enjoyable. Just that kids shouldn't be taught to only do things that are fun, to the point that they won't do anything that they don't see as fun. I asked my father what he thought of Steve's post and he said he agreed completely, BUT he didn't at all interpret it to mean that Steve is anti-fun. Then my mother mentioned that she'd been listening to "How to Teach Your Children to Love Learning" by Victoria Botkin. Because loving to learn whether it's fun or not is important.

I think if it were anyone else we were talking about except Steve, I'd agree with you. But Steve and Teri's views on fun are well known so in this case I'd say they DONT want learning to be fun or enjoyable. Learning shouldn't have to be fun in the way most people think of fun. But it can be a joyful experience just in and of itself. But I don't think Steve wants it to be because if his children found joy in learning they'd want more of it and they wouldn't be satisfied with the limitations that have been placed on them

[shedemei]

I am not the most dedicated follower of the Maxwells, but I suspect they believe their parenting has been an unquestionable success. Boys married off (better to marry than to burn, and boys would burn, AND expand the Maxwell name) Girls safe at home under Steve's headship, because girls don't "Burn" and because who would be a better headship? Paul says being Single is the best option, so I'm sure the girls get a good dose of that teaching.

I haven't thought of that before, and now I wonder if that's why the girls are still at home. If true, I can't imagine that's the kind of attitude that they could ever promote, because it would really turn off their customer base who is geared towards woman's role in life being motherhood.

[CyborgKin]

Many of the comments on various posts mention 'fun' and haven't been censored.

For example, the balloon incident: blog.titus2.com/2014/07/29/balloons-everywhere/

or Jesse's ice-cream party last year: blog.titus2.com/2014/09/18/ice-cream-and-smiles/

Sarah used the word 'fun' twice in this post: blog.titus2.com/2013/07/01/joshuas-learning-to-walk/ and again in blog.titus2.com/2015/06/25/learning-something-new/ (wow and learning... flower arranging :P)

Anyhow, my father doesn't seem to have picked up on any "anti-all-fun" attitude and he's been receiving Steve's emails for I-dunno-how-many years. Maybe it's confirmation bias: he's not expecting to find it.

[JemimaPuddle-Duck]

Many of the comments on various posts mention 'fun' and haven't been censored.

For example, the balloon incident: blog.titus2.com/2014/07/29/balloons-everywhere/

or Jesse's ice-cream party last year: blog.titus2.com/2014/09/18/ice-cream-and-smiles/

Sarah used the word 'fun' twice in this post: blog.titus2.com/2013/07/01/joshuas-learning-to-walk/ and again in blog.titus2.com/2015/06/25/learning-something-new/ (wow and learning... flower arranging :P)

Anyhow, my father doesn't seem to have picked up on any "anti-all-fun" attitude and he's been receiving Steve's emails for I-dunno-how-many years. Maybe it's confirmation bias: he's not expecting to find it.

Interesting thought. I used to see Steve as someone who likely seems worse from the outside looking in, but is loving and kind in real life and my view has changed considerably over the years I've been reading at FJ. Maybe it's just association, but my opinions of other people talked about here haven't changed. Hmmm.

Side note- tell your mom that particular message is my favorite of Mrs. Botkin's ;-)