Titus2's Steve Maxwell: Seriously Anti-Fun

[CyborgKin]

Side note- tell your mom that particular message is my favorite of Mrs. Botkin's ;-)

I'd rather not mention the existence of FJ to anyone IRL. :whistle:

[nastyhobbitses]

The evidence in the Corners suggests she does have a different personality to, say, John, I think. Amongst the girls, she doesn't seem to have the same thirst for new learning as Anna, or the artistic interest of Mary. She writes books because her parents asked her to do so. She seems to be someone who enjoys structure and following rules. And she has little or no curiosity or imagination as evidenced by the Moody books. :cry:

The podcast History Chicks described Queen Mary I (Bloody Mary) in a way that kinda reminds me of Sarah (though Mary was far better educated and probably a great deal more intelligent than Sarah): she wasn't an intellectual like Elizabeth, but very hardworking and loyal; she didn't study because she necessarily found it fun, but because it was her duty to do so. I think Sarah is the same way: maybe not a genius or terribly interested in learning for learning's sake or anything like that, but finds pleasure in a job done and is strongly loyal to her family and likes to be reliable. With the right upbringing for this sort of person, you end up with a Hufflepuff. With a Maxwell/fundie upbringing, you end up with a meek shell of a person who doesn't learn to think for themselves or aim higher.

[treemom]

I never thought of all the people we discuss there would be maxwell apologist. Short of physical or sexual abuse this family is the worst.

[singsingsing]

Agreed. I find the Arndts the creepiest, but I would choose that family over the Maxwells in a second. The Maxwells are a special breed of awful. Give me the Duggars, the Bateses, hell I'd live with Jill Rodriguez and her 25 kids and creepy husband in their RV if it was a choice between that and Maxhell.

[nokidsmom]

Agree that this family is the worst. There's absolutely no joy, something you do see in other fundie families like the Duggars, Bateseses, even the Arndts. Even the Arndts celebrate things even if it's a weird tradition of a birthday cake in the parent's bedroom.

Living in Maxhell is like living in the gulag.

[mango_fandango]

Agree that this family is the worst. There's absolutely no joy, something you do see in other fundie families like the Duggars, Bateseses, even the Arndts. Even the Arndts celebrate things even if it's a weird tradition of a birthday cake in the parent's bedroom.

Living in Maxhell is like living in the gulag.

Doesn't Cathy Ardnt also wear *gasp* SHORTS?? A big no no in Maxhell!

[Jana814]

Agreed. I find the Arndts the creepiest, but I would choose that family over the Maxwells in a second. The Maxwells are a special breed of awful. Give me the Duggars, the Bateses, hell I'd live with Jill Rodriguez and her 25 kids and creepy husband in their RV if it was a choice between that and Maxhell.

Same here!

[VodouDoll]

Thirded.

[CyborgKin]

I must say that having to act out conversations from the Great Conversationalists book over the dinner table was pretty awful. That's not how real humans talk!

I don't mean to be an apologist. Maybe the fact that some people can read Steve's stuff regularly and not conclude that he's utterly anti-fun is actually more scary!

[blessalessi]

I must say that having to act out conversations from the Great Conversationalists book over the dinner table was pretty awful. That's not how real humans talk!

I don't mean to be an apologist. Maybe the fact that some people can read Steve's stuff regularly and not conclude that he's utterly anti-fun is actually more scary!

I don't see you as an apologist and I think it is helpful to have someone here who has lived in a fundie family, through the development of Steve's peculiar theology.

I suspect that Steve's presentation to his customers and his family is far more subtle than the way it seems from some of the FJ discussion. Stories sometimes seem to get bigger with the re-telling here, and I think that challenge is healthy.

In Hearts, Steve doesn't specifically say that all fun is wrong. But the argument that he builds throughout the text is that if an activity is not primarily dedicated to bringing glory to God and leading directly to salvation, then parents should seriously consider whether that activity is appropriate at all. Parents, particularly fathers, are held responsible for their children's spiritual growth and are encouraged always to be focused on "redeeming the time, for the days are evil".

Everything that Steve does recommend as profitable activity generally serves the primary purpose of sheltering his children, even though it may be wrapped up in the guise of charity. For example, the entire family was at home 7 days a week at the time of writing Hearts, but they didn't start a ministry to the elderly neighbour until Steve started looking for a way to curb the appetite for fun that his children were developing at the AWANA Club on Wednesday evenings. So poor elderly Mrs Ola, who is probably at the time in life when she enjoys early nights and peaceful rest, suddenly gets the "blessing" of a supersized family descending on her at the very end of a weekday, just so Steve can contrive to separate his kids from their regularly scheduled fun-time.

And so it goes on. He doesn't actually condemn you for choosing to have fun (God will do that!), but he makes it very clear that America is suffering an epidemic loss of the hearts of children from Christian families, and basically you need to choose between Steve's way, or the highway.

[treemom]

I must say that having to act out conversations from the Great Conversationalists book over the dinner table was pretty awful. That's not how real humans talk!

I don't mean to be an apologist. Maybe the fact that some people can read Steve's stuff regularly and not conclude that he's utterly anti-fun is actually more scary!

It just seems like you have had several posts that seem to be basically saying "aw shucks, he isn't that bad, you just misunderstand him"

[nokidsmom]

Doesn't Cathy Ardnt also wear *gasp* SHORTS?? A big no no in Maxhell!

If buttons on blouses / tops can be a problem, you can be darn sure that shorts in Maxhell is a definite no no. As weird as they are, there are some normal things the Arndts do and probably without worrying where they will go when they die.

[MamaJunebug]

IIRC and some days I do not, the original prohibition was against contrasting buttons on skirts, because that drew attention to the baby-making area.

I'm thinking of Poor Sarah's youthful trip to the airport to ID women dressing tart-fully, and I'm recalling that little essay, "Children learn what they live. If a child lives with criticism, he learns to condemn,..." etc. And I'm concluding, "If parents make a disproportionate number of mistakes on the oldest, Poor Sarah really deserves the title. From little on up, she's learned to despise anything not parent-approved. Anna and Mary came along when The Dyynamic Duo of Steve & Teri were older and more distracted by 6 other kids, a home business, etc., so those daughters got far less concentrated a dose than PS."

No new thoughts, there, just a deeper level of sadness for PS. Although it's doubtful she knows any difference. AUGH!!!!

[blessalessi]

It just seems like you have had several posts that seem to be basically saying "aw shucks, he isn't that bad, you just misunderstand him"

In the context of her posting history, I think CyborgKin is just expressing reasonable concern about our assumptions, relating to a theology that clearly isn't her own.

Reading through the archives, there seem to be quite a few members who came here from families that were one-time followers of the Maxwells. On the Gentle Christian Mothering Forums, there are also several threads where Christians of different stripes discuss the Maxwells and there does seem to be a strong contingent of families who choose to "eat the meat and spit out the bones" from the various Christian Guides To Life that are around.

I think CyborgKin's point (my bolding) is very astute. Steve knows his market and he has played a good game so far. He warms the conferences up with a singing session, he brings along shiny, smiley kids as "evidence" of his own parenting "success", and he does tolerate a certain level of discussion around fun, before he starts his lectures about appetites for sin and the penalty of eternal damnation. I think it is entirely reasonable that many families don't see the sinister side because they are simply not primed to look for it.

[treemom]

In the context of her posting history, I think CyborgKin is just expressing reasonable concern about our assumptions, relating to a theology that clearly isn't her own.

Reading through the archives, there seem to be quite a few members who came here from families that were one-time followers of the Maxwells. On the Gentle Christian Mothering Forums, there are also several threads where Christians of different stripes discuss the Maxwells and there does seem to be a strong contingent of families who choose to "eat the meat and spit out the bones" from the various Christian Guides To Life that are around.

I think CyborgKin's point (my bolding) is very astute. Steve knows his market and he has played a good game so far. He warms the conferences up with a singing session, he brings along shiny, smiley kids as "evidence" of his own parenting "success", and he does tolerate a certain level of discussion around fun, before he starts his lectures about appetites for sin and the penalty of eternal damnation. I think it is entirely reasonable that many families don't see the sinister side because they are simply not primed to look for it.

Fair enough. I was explaining why i had the perception I do. I am sure you understand that with a site this large being able to understand the posting history of one poster, well its hard.

I disagree with her, but perhaps my perception of the apologist view is incorrect.

[Palimpsest]

I haven't looked at Cyborgkin's posting history and can't read her mind, so I don't know whether she means to be an apologist, is just being argumentative, or isn't getting what we are talking about.

I'll agree that we do exaggerate some things about Steve as in-jokes. I can imagine him reading here (Hi Steve!) and muttering to himself that the 2 animal crackers thing only happened once and they eat lots and lots of desserts. And, of course, he thinks they have fun. Every single person in the family loves summiting 14ers and feeding those chipmunks. They really look forward to doing that on "what some may call a vacation" every single damn year.

For people who haven't read the Maxwell blog over the years, it is the isolation, rigidity and sheer repetitiveness of their lives that is so stultifying. No wonder they have races to see how fast they can unpack. It makes a change from the 999 times they have unpacked before, and it is at least something different to do.

You also have to dig back through the blog to see how the Maxwell parents systematically remove things that the family enjoys from their lives. It's as though life in Maxhell is a year-long Lenten fast!

That said, I think that Steve is losing both his touch and his fan-base. It was one thing to show of his perfect young family, but the cracks are showing. Attendance at his conferences is way down, far fewer conferences are being scheduled, and people are getting bored with or turned off by the Maxwell message.

Yes, he is shrewd. Yes, he does run his conferences fairly competently. Yes, the conferences seem to try to be friendly and upbeat, except for the men only sessions. That's an important exception. The rage really shows there, according to Mr.P., and it isn't pleasant.

The problem is that there is really nothing new at the conferences. It's just the same old material as in the "Corner's" and in the books presented for the Nth time - even when they change the name of the conference from "Inspire!" to "Energize!" People are bored. It's probably also hard to take his courtship message seriously when poor Sarah is still withering on the matrimonial vine.

In addition, I think his control issues, increasing paranoia, and general terseness and cantankerousness, are beginning to annoy the very people who might actually agree with his message these days. The Maxwells practically forbid people who sign up for One Ton Ramp courses to talk to each other and compare notes. I also think there must have been some raised eyebrows over Joseph's secret wedding and John's mystery trip, even among the faithful. Those things were weird, even for Steve.

[mango_fandango]

I haven't looked at Cyborgkin's posting history and can't read her mind, so I don't know whether she means to be an apologist, is just being argumentative, or isn't getting what we are talking about.

I'll agree that we do exaggerate some things about Steve as in-jokes. I can imagine him reading here (Hi Steve!) and muttering to himself that the 2 animal crackers thing only happened once and they eat lots and lots of desserts. And, of course, he thinks they have fun. Every single person in the family loves summiting 14ers and feeding those chipmunks. They really look forward to doing that on "what some may call a vacation" every single damn year.

For people who haven't read the Maxwell blog over the years, it is the isolation, rigidity and sheer repetitiveness of their lives that is so stultifying. No wonder they have races to see how fast they can unpack. It makes a change from the 999 times they have unpacked before, and it is at least something different to do.

You also have to dig back through the blog to see how the Maxwell parents systematically remove things that the family enjoys from their lives. It's as though life in Maxhell is a year-long Lenten fast!

That said, I think that Steve is losing both his touch and his fan-base. It was one thing to show of his perfect young family, but the cracks are showing. Attendance at his conferences is way down, far fewer conferences are being scheduled, and people are getting bored with or turned off by the Maxwell message.

Yes, he is shrewd. Yes, he does run his conferences fairly competently. Yes, the conferences seem to try to be friendly and upbeat, except for the men only sessions. That's an important exception. The rage really shows there, according to Mr.P., and it isn't pleasant.

The problem is that there is really nothing new at the conferences. It's just the same old material as in the "Corner's" and in the books presented for the Nth time - even when they change the name of the conference from "Inspire!" to "Energize!" People are bored. It's probably also hard to take his courtship message seriously when poor Sarah is still withering on the matrimonial vine.

In addition, I think his control issues, increasing paranoia, and general terseness and cantankerousness, are beginning to annoy the very people who might actually agree with his message these days. The Maxwells practically forbid people who sign up for One Ton Ramp courses to talk to each other and compare notes. I also think there must have been some raised eyebrows over Joseph's secret wedding and John's mystery trip, even among the faithful. Those things were weird, even for Steve.

Also, they constantly mention how they met people who'd come to the conferences before. So it really is a small fanbase. A tiny crowd, and mostly the same people who go every year. Do you really need to go, leghumpers? The people who do go have probably already bought MOTH, MOTS, MOTC and the rest, have signed up for the Corners and so on. So why do they go?

[Palimpsest]

mango_fandango wrote:

Also, they constantly mention how they met people who'd come to the conferences before. So it really is a small fanbase. A tiny crowd, and mostly the same people who go every year. Do you really need to go, leghumpers? The people who do go have probably already bought MOTH, MOTS, MOTC and the rest, have signed up for the Corners and so on. So why do they go?

Yes. My point was that many of those people are falling away because they are bored. The Maxwells aren't being invited back these days for the same old, same old stuff. There was a desperation we haven't seen before about this year's conference schedule.

I just wanted to add this: The Maxwells having lots of Christmas fun: blog.titus2.com/2011/12/21/a-city-under-construction/

Teenagers and young men and women might well have fun making gingerbread houses, although this is something that seems more appropriate for children even younger than Mary (who was 14 at the time). The same might be said for picnics, barbecues and visits to the zoo, also invariably en famille with the Maxwells.

The cynics among us might want to point out that normal young people would be out having a social life instead of decorating pastries with Dad and Mom.

[salex]

Also, they constantly mention how they met people who'd come to the conferences before. So it really is a small fanbase. A tiny crowd, and mostly the same people who go every year. Do you really need to go, leghumpers? The people who do go have probably already bought MOTH, MOTS, MOTC and the rest, have signed up for the Corners and so on. So why do they go?

I suspect that if they go to the same areas/churches year after year, they would have the same people helping prep for their event, the same people attending to support their local church, and a certain contingency of local church folk who, if the church doors are open, they are at the church. Gives them a chance to see their friends, see some new (approved by their church) speaker, etc. If many/some of these attendees also don't have tv/radio, go to movies, etc, they may see this as a rare chance for entertainment.

[IReallyAmHopewell]

The Maxwells may be getting back-lash from the Duggar fall-out, too I wonder how many (1 or 2) may have canceled "penciled in" dates to have the Maxwells? The Churches they go to are usually friendly to ATI/IBLP..... just a thought.

On the Making Gingerbread houses thing: I give them a pass on that one. Every family has a few Traditions that defy age. In a NORMAL family a kid may have to be dragged to it for a few years, but still. Like the years your family may have driven around looking at Christmas lights with a teen listening to rap on earbuds...... I can think of some Gingerbread-like things in my very unMaxwell family that are enjoyed--even if t is is a different type enjoyment. Maybe you serve wine with that gingerbread now or something like that. Of course we know in MaxHell you do it to bring the oldies at the home to Jesus....but its as close to fun as they get so heck yeah! Let's decorate a Gingerbread Church.

[anjulibai]

What I find odd about the Maxwell repetitiveness is that they could easily branch out to other areas of Christian self-help and continue to sell books and make money. There's lots of areas they haven't explored, from cookbooks/meal planners to music (to ideas to how to live as an adult at home.

They could do a ton of different things. They just choose not to. Why? Who knows, but it's odd that so many obvious things, including stuff that their fans have asked for (like the cookbooks and music), they don't do anything with.

[blessalessi]

The next Seriously post is up, and I think it continues the theme of contradiction between what Steve believes, and how his family presents itself to potential customers.

articles.titus2.com/keeping-score/

KEEPING SCORE

This was posted on September 23, 2015 by Steve Maxwell.

Some keep score of hurts.

Some keep score of dollars.

Some keep score of favors granted.

God keeps score of every idle word.

Am I gracious and kind with others, especially my wife and children? It takes so little to cause a deep hurt. May I build them up, not tear them down.

“But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.†(Matthew 12:36-37)

Steve

He warns us often about the danger of "idle words", writing at length about the problem in Making Great Conversationalists and yet, at the same time elsewhere on the blog, John is celebrated as the family joker. As pointed out in this FJ thread:

viewtopic.php?f=96&t=12884

So, which one is it, Steve? Are jokes and small talk evil or good-for-business? Are you deliberately running with the hare and the hound, for the sake of keeping the $$ coming in from families less extreme than yours? :shifty-kitty:

[blessalessi]

The church that Steve preached at on Sunday past is probably as fundie as they come.

countrysidebc.com/index.php

Welcome to Countryside Baptist Church

We are an Old Fashioned Baptist Church...

King James Bible Believing

Fundamental

Independent

Soul winning

Separated

Pre-Millennial

And yet it has age-segregated bible classes. I would guess Steve must have modified his message with quite a few "idle words", in order to keep the pastor sweet, and have him pass around the love-offering box.

[halcionne]

It just seems like you have had several posts that seem to be basically saying "aw shucks, he isn't that bad, you just misunderstand him"

I agree, there's something hinky about this member. Conversationalists only came out two years ago, if I'm not mistaken, and CyborgKin has stated they are over age 21. I understand that, mathematically, CyborgKin could've been obligated to act out conversations over the dinner table at age 19 and left Maxhell since. A recent escape from Maxhell also could explain the shades of Stockholm Syndrome we see in their posts. I hope I'm not coming off too accusatory--I'm just kind of struggling to believe that someone who was performing Stevisms in the family home less than two years ago has deprogrammed enough to join and participate at Free Jinger. That sentiment possibly says more about the pace with which I accomplish life goals (verrrrrrrrrry slooooooooowly).

[VodouDoll]

Yeesh, Bible classes are a huge no-no in Maxhell. Steve says learning about the bible from anyone but your own gut intuition is the same as eating pre-chewed food. Millennia of scholarship is nothing but diseased backwash to him. And age separated classes are even worse: children will be out from the spiritual authority of their father and might develop opposite-sex friendships, which could lead to crushes, which could lead to hand-holding and fornication.