CA has mandatory vaccination/CA Bans Personal Belief Exemp

[EmmieJ]

You know me, always here with a question for everybody! I'm going to try to explain what I'm saying, but if it doesn't make sense, let me know, and I'll try again. I don't at all mean to offend, or to trivialize what happened at the Oregon bakery, or to "victim blame". I just ask knowing what to me feels like common sense, so I'm looking for another perspective.

I know that you shouldn't have to, however...if you have another option, why go somewhere that isn't going to be as invested and excited about your big day as you are, regardless of why? I would much rather go somewhere that the vendor is going to be just as enthused as I am (within reason, they're not the ones getting married :lol: ). Sweet Cakes wasn't the only bakery in town (I checked!), and their media had been pretty vehemently Christian before the couple visited. I'm sure the couple never foresaw this situation, but I feel like that just would've been uncomfortable to go to a bakery that gave off such a judgey vibe just from its Facebook!

I 100% support non-discrimination laws, and I in no way think they should be removed. But at the same time, the law can only be enforced so far, and there's a chance the vendor might just do the bare minimum because they have to. Where's the joy in that? I think that kind of celebration deserves to be a big deal! I personally wouldn't want to go somewhere that I felt the vendor wasn't invested in me, or in delivering the best possible service. There are plenty of places in my neck of the woods where my business is tolerated but not appreciated, so I just don't go there.

Regardless, this cake debacle should never have gotten to the point that it has. I can't say that I think these people are being the good representatives of faith they seem to think they are.

Please don't kill me!

I do wonder why the couple chose that particular bakery. Perhaps they were not aware of the attitude of the owners until they went in and tried to order their wedding cake? Or perhaps they were aware, and went there on purpose to see if their request would be refused, because they felt it was important to take a stand against something they feel is wrong.

I agree that laws can only go so far. What will carry the tide is public opinion. At some point, businesses that only want to cater to people they approve of, will find that they are having a hard time keeping their business afloat, as more and more people will choose to express their disapproval by taking their business elsewhere. On top of that, people will continue to post their disapproval on the FB pages of such businesses, or give them negative reviews on Yelp, thereby spreading the word. Turning away business because the fact that someone is gay offends your delicate sensibilities is a poor business model. You might as well just put up a big sign that says "The owners of this business are busybody bigots and eagerly await the chance to judge you for your sins!"

Sorry to contribute to the thread drift. Back to the original topic - I'm glad California passed this law. I am of the belief that the greater good of the general population trumps bad science. For those who really don't want to vaccinate their kids, they have options. And for the few who have medical issues that make vaccination medically unsafe, they will be able to get a medical exemption.

[freejingerbeth]

First American, in 12 years, dies of measles......thanks to the anti-vaxers.

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2015/07/03 ... re-aholes/

Ok, Anti-Vaxers......Do you get it now, or do you just not give a shit, because it wasn't your family member? :angry-banghead:

[Terrie]

We had a cake topper! I found one on Amazon that was for two brides, and the figurines even looked like us (one redhead in a dress and one blonde in a suit!) It was too good to pass up.

My brother and his wife found a local artist who custom made them. They even had the dog on the cake!

[bekahdimples]

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[attachment=0]images.jpg[/attachment]

So someone elselse pointed this out:

How does keeping them out if school help protect the other kids??? They still go to play ground, they still go to the mall, the grocery store, the movies, and the DOCTOR. They are still in public.

[formergothardite]

So someone elselse pointed this out:

How does keeping them out if school help protect the other kids??? They still go to play ground, they still go to the mall, the grocery store, the movies, and the DOCTOR. They are still in public.

When car insurance is required to drive on the public roads, most people obey, even if they don't like it. There are some who don't, but the majority do. That is what happens in the states that only allow medical exemptions if a child is to attend public school. People start vaccinating their children. I think Mississippi has like a 99% rate of children entering public school fully vaccinated. So there are less children wandering about unvaccinated and more likely to spread these sorts of diseases. Sure, there are going to be some who aren't vaccinated, but the number is lower which means that herd immunity is higher. It works because people want to use the public school and are willing to vaccinate to do that. Just like most people are willing to buy car insurance to use public roads even if they don't really want to buy it.

[tapdancer493]

When car insurance is required to drive on the public roads, most people obey, even if they don't like it. There are some who don't, but the majority do. That is what happens in the states that only allow medical exemptions if a child is to attend public school. People start vaccinating their children. I think Mississippi has like a 99% rate of children entering public school fully vaccinated. So there are less children wandering about unvaccinated and more likely to spread these sorts of diseases. Sure, there are going to be some who aren't vaccinated, but the number is lower which means that herd immunity is higher. It works because people want to use the public school and are willing to vaccinate to do that. Just like most people are willing to buy car insurance to use public roads even if they don't really want to buy it.

Two things. First, let's be real, children spend most of their time either in school or with their family. Obviously they have playdates and stuff, but school is major and I would guess where most people pick things up. There are just so many ways to pick up germs at school that don't exist at the mall or the grocery store or the movies. Sure, people spread germs in passing but I'd bet a lot of people pick germs up from school (as a child) or work (as an adult). Also, some doctors are refusing to take patients who won't fully vaccinate their children.

[bekahdimples]

When car insurance is required to drive on the public roads, most people obey, even if they don't like it. There are some who don't, but the majority do. That is what happens in the states that only allow medical exemptions if a child is to attend public school. People start vaccinating their children. I think Mississippi has like a 99% rate of children entering public school fully vaccinated. So there are less children wandering about unvaccinated and more likely to spread these sorts of diseases. Sure, there are going to be some who aren't vaccinated, but the number is lower which means that herd immunity is higher. It works because people want to use the public school and are willing to vaccinate to do that. Just like most people are willing to buy car insurance to use public roads even if they don't really want to buy it.

Just because Mississippi's vaccination rate is 99 percent of children in school does not mean that Mississippi's overall vaccination rate has gone up it may just mean more children are staying home

[formergothardite]

Just because Mississippi's vaccination rate is 99 percent of children in school does not mean that Mississippi's overall vaccination rate has gone up it may just mean more children are staying home

From what I can tell the number of medical exemptions they give is very low. So it does not appear that that is the case.

ETA: It seems like a parent must have an exemption for even private school in Mississippi and they issued less than 200 medical exemptions last year. Now I don't know if that applies to homeschooling too, but Mississippi has the toughest immunization laws and the highest number of children getting vaccinated.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

Really minor and unrelated to the bigger issues -- but can you really drive a car on private roads without insurance? You can't in my state, which happens to be California. In order to register the car you have to provide proof of insurance. And you can't just not register the car -- they will give you big fines and eventually suspend your drivers license.

In California, private roads and property are ONLY able to be enforced by the police if they're called out. That's why security guards exist in housing developments and what not. But, you can, in technicality, drive without a license on private property. You can also text while driving on private property. Once you enter the public property, though, you're open to being ticketed or arrested if you continue driving in unlawful manners. My friend won a texting while driving appeal case because she texted while driving in a private parking lot in CA, but had stowed the phone by the time she entered the main road.

[nelliebelle1197]

Just because Mississippi's vaccination rate is 99 percent of children in school does not mean that Mississippi's overall vaccination rate has gone up it may just mean more children are staying home

No. If you had paid attention to the thread, it was mentioned several times that this law is about 5 decades old. There are articles and linked posted about the rates.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

Apologies because this is likely an off-topic rabbit trail...

Do people actually still get the little bride or groom figurines on wedding cakes? I have not seen those for years. Like decades. It is all flowers and cutesy theme related decorations. The last wedding I went to, in May, had a rustic barn thing going along with a general camo/hunting theme and had deer figurines on the cake. Those were the first actual plastic figurines of any kind I'd seen on a wedding cake in decades.

I don't think I'd have the traditional cake toppers, but then I don't plan on having a traditional wedding. That said, I do like the idea of the cake toppers existing and reflecting either the theme of the wedding or the personalities of individuals.

For instance, if I was to get the wedding theme of my dreams, this is the type of topper I would go with: flickr.com/photos/passionarte/6877422718/

That said, I can't say one way or the other if toppers are common or not these days. I've only been to a handful of wedding receptions in the past 10 years, and most of them are remarriage ceremonies or after eloping parties. Also, most of them opted for cupcakes instead of cakes.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

First American, in 12 years, dies of measles......thanks to the anti-vaxers.

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2015/07/03 ... re-aholes/

Ok, Anti-Vaxers......Do you get it now, or do you just not give a shit, because it wasn't your family member? :angry-banghead:

Unfortunately, they live in their own world. This is just one of many posts from Things Anti-Vaxers Say on the topic of her dying.

PS. Before anyone comments that "yea she died of pneumonia, and not measles": measles almost always infect the lungs, and once there cause pneumonia. You can tell that it was caused by the measles because an autopsy will show (as hers did) that there were no other viruses or bacterium present that could have lead to the deadly pneumonia.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

So someone elselse pointed this out:

How does keeping them out if school help protect the other kids??? They still go to play ground, they still go to the mall, the grocery store, the movies, and the DOCTOR. They are still in public.

1. Many doctors are moving to not serve families who will not vaccinated (except for reasons of medical exemptions), and many others are having unvaccinated children come at different times than other children.

2. It's MUCH easier to spread ANY disease among children, ESPECIALLY in a group setting as seen in schools and daycares. It's very easy to witness this during the cold and flu season. Yes, unvaccinated populations still pose a threat even outside the school setting, but they pose much less of a threat than they do inside of one.

[bekahdimples]

1. Many doctors are moving to not serve families who will not vaccinated (except for reasons of medical exemptions), and many others are having unvaccinated children come at different times than other children.

2. It's MUCH easier to spread ANY disease among children, ESPECIALLY in a group setting as seen in schools and daycares. It's very easy to witness this during the cold and flu season. Yes, unvaccinated populations still pose a threat even outside the school setting, but they pose much less of a threat than they do inside of one.

Yeah, I know kids spead germs at school- I'm a preschool teacher. But really we are quite clean. Not all places are I'm sure but we really keep it clean and talk about germs and teach them how.not to spead germs.

The kids at my school don't have there kindergarten shots yet. They are 2,3 and 4. All kids at my school have the vaccines appropriate to their age group however. I do believe in vaccines and that it should have a consequence such as doctors not seeing them or something else I have not yet thought up but I do not think it should be tied to an education. I just don't.

[RosyDaisy]

Am I the only one who gets disgusted when Hitler, Nazis, and Holocaust are thrown around when not being used to discuss history? Fuck everyone who does it. If weren't so incredibly offensive, I would post post pictures of all three just to remind people what those words mean.

Snarkylarky, take your fundie beliefs and pseudo medical credentials and stick 'em up you fundie ass. You are like every other fundie who comes a trollin' around this here site. You spew shit and refuse to answer direct questions when politely asked. You don't win souls or arguments that way, honey.

Please excuse my redneck speak, I just can't help it at times.

[Snarkylark]

Am I the only one who gets disgusted when Hitler, Nazis, and Holocaust are thrown around when not being used to discuss history? Fuck everyone who does it. If weren't so incredibly offensive, I would post post pictures of all three just to remind people what those words mean.

Snarkylarky, take your fundie beliefs and pseudo medical credentials and stick 'em up you fundie ass. You are like every other fundie who comes a trollin' around this here site. You spew shit and refuse to answer direct questions when politely asked. You don't win souls or arguments that way, honey.

Please excuse my redneck speak, I just can't help it at times.

Sorry you think I'm trolling. I'm not. I think I've been answering what has been asked the best I can.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

Sorry you think I'm trolling. I'm not. I think I've been answering what has been asked the best I can.

You make statements you can't stand behind, and then backtrack or give non-answers if you're called out. If you're not trolling, then you don't really have an idea of what it is that you believe. Since you're not trolling, then you're in a very dangerous position. No one should hold a belief they don't understand. If you don't understand it, you need to research it. And I don't mean mommy-blog research. I mean real research with credible sources that haven't been twisted to fit an agenda.

[Mama Mia]

We are non-denominational but attend a Lutheran church now. As for the voting issue, I've stated I don't know that there is a party for me. I think we tend to vote for what we feel are the lesser of two "evils" for lack of a better word. Do all liberals or all conservatives believe 100% in their party's beliefs or even each candidate's? I doubt it. I think Obama would have made a few more friends if he'd have lit the White House in red, white, and blue for the Fourth of July;) but I digress.

The voting issue is an interesting one. And since this thread seems to be covering all major hot buttons, I thought I'd bring it up :) .

How do people balance out their voting choices ? Do you vote mostly along party lines, or do you have one or two issues that are passionate about and vote for the candidTe who is also passionate about those things? Or , particularly in the primary ( sorry for the U.S. Bias, I don't know if there is an equivilant other places ) do you vote for someone you may not agree with as strongly -- but is most likely to beat someone you hate in the general election. Do you agree with your party's positions on issues -- or are there one or two issues you disagree strongly with -- but vote for them because you agree with the rest?

Just wondering. I'm more anti- choice than virtually everyone here. But not nearly to the point of the kinds of restrictions most Republicans want. And I can't stand them on virtually everything else. In the primary I generally vote for whoever is the farthest left of the Democrats ( and they usually aren't far enough) So when these kind of questions come up I can honestly " pass" whatever kind of litmus test this is -- but it's just because of my beliefs on other issues.

Also -- backtracking to the eye drop issue. Did anyone who was defending the universal use look into the information about antibacterial hand soap and antibiotic resistance? Did any of the info make you question if those kinds of universal medical procedures should be reexamined?

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

[Snarkylark]

You make statements you can't stand behind, and then backtrack or give non-answers if you're called out. If you're not trolling, then you don't really have an idea of what it is that you believe. Since you're not trolling, then you're in a very dangerous position. No one should hold a belief they don't understand. If you don't understand it, you need to research it. And I don't mean mommy-blog research. I mean real research with credible sources that haven't been twisted to fit an agenda.

I know what I believe. Why is it that it's ok for you to be intolerant of my beliefs but if I don't agree with yours then I'm the bigot or deserve to be treated like crap?

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

The voting issue is an interesting one. And since this thread seems to be covering all major hot buttons, I thought I'd bring it up :) .

How do people balance out their voting choices ? Do you vote mostly along party lines, or do you have one or two issues that are passionate about and vote for the candidTe who is also passionate about those things? Or , particularly in the primary ( sorry for the U.S. Bias, I don't know if there is an equivilant other places ) do you vote for someone you may not agree with as strongly -- but is most likely to beat someone you hate in the general election. Do you agree with your party's positions on issues -- or are there one or two issues you disagree strongly with -- but vote for them because you agree with the rest?

Just wondering. I'm more anti- choice than virtually everyone here. But not nearly to the point of the kinds of restrictions most Republicans want. And I can't stand them on virtually everything else. In the primary I generally vote for whoever is the farthest left of the Democrats ( and they usually aren't far enough) So when these kind of questions come up I can honestly " pass" whatever kind of litmus test this is -- but it's just because of my beliefs on other issues.

Also -- backtracking to the eye drop issue. Did anyone who was defending the universal use look into the information about antibacterial hand soap and antibiotic resistance? Did any of the info make you question if those kinds of universal medical procedures should be reexamined?

I never vote based on party. I firmly believe that George Washington had it right when (during his farewell address) he called the American people to ignore the call of political parties.

The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism. The disorders and miseries, which result, gradually incline the minds of men to seek security and repose in the absolute power of an individual; and sooner or later the chief of some prevailing faction, more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on the ruins of Public Liberty.

Without looking forward to an extremity of this kind, (which nevertheless ought not to be entirely out of sight,) the common and continual mischiefs of the spirit of party are sufficient to make it the interest and duty of a wise people to discourage and restrain it.

It serves always to distract the Public Councils, and enfeeble the Public Administration. It agitates the Community with ill-founded jealousies and false alarms; kindles the animosity of one part against another, foments occasionally riot and insurrection. It opens the door to foreign influence and corruption, which find a facilitated access to the government itself through the channels of party passions. Thus the policy and the will of one country are subjected to the policy and will of another.

There is an opinion, that parties in free countries are useful checks upon the administration of the Government, and serve to keep alive the spirit of Liberty. This within certain limits is probably true; and in Governments of a Monarchical cast, Patriotism may look with indulgence, if not with favor, upon the spirit of party. But in those of the popular character, in Governments purely elective, it is a spirit not to be encouraged. From their natural tendency, it is certain there will always be enough of that spirit for every salutary purpose. And, there being constant danger of excess, the effort ought to be, by force of public opinion, to mitigate and assuage it. A fire not to be quenched, it demands a uniform vigilance to prevent its bursting into a flame, lest, instead of warming, it should consume.

[Snarkylark]

I don't trust any politician. They're all crooked, IMO. I wish we could get rid of the parties and have real, truthful discussion on where they stand and how they'll vote. Lobbyists have far too much control and I think that's a bad thing. Politicians vote wherever the money is coming from.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

I know what I believe. Why is it that it's ok for you to be intolerant of my beliefs but if I don't agree with yours then I'm the bigot or deserve to be treated like crap?

I'm NOT intolerant of people's beliefs. I'm intolerant of ignorance, which you promote through your biased and downright fake links. I'm intolerant of people who tell others that they are wrong, but are unable to explain why without using hyperbole or other forms of fear mongering. I'm intolerant of people who make unsubstantiated claims and act as if they are truths. I'm intolerant of the belief that you can say whatever the hell you want without recourse. I'm intolerant of anyone who thinks using a holocaust reference is the way to win any argument (the only place holocaust references have are in conversations ABOUT the holocaust, and they should never be used for fear mongering purposes). I'm intolerant of anyone who uses their profession as a means of "gaining credibility," but denies that to anyone who also has that profession but has a different point of view. I'm intolerant of people who use their professions as a way of "gaining credibility" but then come off as not having even a basic understanding of topics people in their profession should have a firm grasp on. I'm intolerant of people who can't be bothered to admit they were wrong. I'm intolerant of people who will fight tooth and nail KNOWING they are wrong. I'm intolerant of people who tell others they are wrong when they've proven themselves to be right through science. I'm intolerant of people who act put upon when they start a fight they cant win.

[bekahdimples]

[FundieFarmer]

I couldn't care less about the parties, and definitely don't vote along those lines. According to IStandWith, I agree 85% with the Libertarian party...and when I looked over our differences, I found they were almost always minute differences. So I'd say they happen to match MY beliefs, instead of the other way around :lol: