CA has mandatory vaccination/CA Bans Personal Belief Exemp

[Maggie Mae]

The voting issue is an interesting one. And since this thread seems to be covering all major hot buttons, I thought I'd bring it up :) .

How do people balance out their voting choices? Do you vote mostly along party lines, or do you have one or two issues that are passionate about and vote for the candidate who is also passionate about those things? Or , particularly in the primary ( sorry for the U.S. Bias, I don't know if there is an equivalent other places ) do you vote for someone you may not agree with as strongly -- but is most likely to beat someone you hate in the general election. Do you agree with your party's positions on issues -- or are there one or two issues you disagree strongly with -- but vote for them because you agree with the rest?

Just wondering. I'm more anti- choice than virtually everyone here. But not nearly to the point of the kinds of restrictions most Republicans want. And I can't stand them on virtually everything else. In the primary I generally vote for whoever is the farthest left of the Democrats ( and they usually aren't far enough) So when these kind of questions come up I can honestly " pass" whatever kind of litmus test this is -- but it's just because of my beliefs on other issues.

Also -- backtracking to the eye drop issue. Did anyone who was defending the universal use look into the information about antibacterial hand soap and antibiotic resistance? Did any of the info make you question if those kinds of universal medical procedures should be reexamined?

I think every election is a little different. I like to think that every election, I know a little more about the political process and the candidates, my own beliefs, and the issues. I also grow more and more cynical as time goes by. It's just so exhausting. There is SO much corruption. There is so much greed and (SORRY FOR THE PALIN-ISM) "crony capitalism" everywhere. For local stuff (which i think is overall more important anyway) I look for someone who is respected in the community, has experience, is socially liberal and will be able to actually accomplish something that benefits me. I don't think it REALLY matters, of course. Ballots can easily go missing - they have in the past - and what really matters is the certification.

As for national stuff, I can't be bothered anymore. The election is decided before our polls even close. My state is at the whim of whomever takes office. The current administration has never even set foot in this state (outside of the AFB for a refuel on the way to China). I like to participate and advocate for whomever interests me, but it really doesn't matter at all. We have really low turnout in this state, and a big part of that is the fact that it literally does not matter what happens. Federal Government owns 60% of the land. As such, they can choose who gets roads and who doesn't. But our votes (for president, anyway) literally don't make a lick of difference.

[bekahdimples]

I started a new one as the other post was getting quite long.

Also I live in the bay area- and while i can only speak about my county- the places labled as rich hot spots are not rich

It's funny how you say they are the rich

Vallejo is totally a getto

El ceritto is okayyyy schools have 6 ratings on Zillow ect. Ive considered moving there but they would be my lowest choice.

Maybe the households make more than 75,000 a year but to live any where in the bay area u need to make 75k. Making over 100k u stillcan't live anywhere nice. To live some where nice in the bay area you have to pay at least 3k per month on rent. To buy a home in my home town I would need 1million but half the price 20 minutes away in a bad town. But u still need at least 75k for the bad neighborhoods. U have to adjust your definition or rich for the bay.

I really do believe in vaccines just again not tying them to school.

But kinda playing devil's advocate after this point / rasing questions but not what I believe...

Why do u think its the college educated people who are against it??

I mean not because you know they do because of the study ; but why do u think they are against it?

If they are so smart

I would maybe think they know something and everyone else is stupid.

But I also know that really the rich are just entitled and don't really think anything bad will ever happen to THEM.

I certainly don't.

[OkToBeTakei]

I know what I believe. Why is it that it's ok for you to be intolerant of my beliefs but if I don't agree with yours then I'm the bigot or deserve to be treated like crap?

Just how are you being treated like crap? A few folk disagreeing with you on the internet does not a persecution make.

ON the other hand you believe two people of the same sex getting married should not be afforded the same rights as 'heterosexual' couples and you believe anybody who has had an abortion is a murderer.

You might want to figure out that whole tolerance thing.

[Snarkylark]

Just how are you being treated like crap? A few folk disagreeing with you on the internet does not a persecution make.

ON the other hand you believe two people of the same sex getting married should not be afforded the same rights as 'heterosexual' couples and you believe anybody who has had an abortion is a murderer.

You might want to figure out that whole tolerance thing.

But I never said that. I never called anyone a murderer. Ever. I said I believe abortion is wrong. And I didn't say that gays shouldn't have the same rights. I said I'd bake them the cake because I think it's stupid not to. I tried to make it clear that even though "I" don't agree with abortion or gay marriage, I don't think people should be denied rights based on someone else's religious beliefs. I thought I made that clear. I don't discriminate against anyone and I don't judge anyone. I don't look down on people or think that I'm better than anyone. I don't think rosy daisy's comments were "nice" in any way.

[Snarkylark]

I wanted to go back to the Hitler thing for a minute. I feel like this may be why some people are concerned and making comparisons. Idk if the "source" is reliable. It was just a quick google search to try to find some answers because as I said history is not my strong point. Please tell me what you think. fee.org/freeman/detail/national-health-care-medicine-in-germany-1918-1945

[lawlifelgbt]

But I never said that. I never called anyone a murderer. Ever. I said I believe abortion is wrong. And I didn't say that gays shouldn't have the same rights. I said I'd bake them the cake because I think it's stupid not to. I tried to make it clear that even though "I" don't agree with abortion or gay marriage, I don't think people should be denied rights based on someone else's religious beliefs. I thought I made that clear. I don't discriminate against anyone and I don't judge anyone. I don't look down on people or think that I'm better than anyone.

I am totally OK with calling you a bigot. Because you are one! I am a member of a local LGBTQ Facebook group, that all tries to help each other, and I see the situations that being antigay causes. Every day, almost, I hear of someone or other homeless, kicked out, beaten up, suicidal, or fired. A few years ago in a district north of here (the most conservative one in the state), there were NINE student suicides in only a few weeks (and IIRC several attempts, too!) This was because of rampant antigay bullying condoned, supported, and backed by conservative families and people like yourself. Most people blame Michelle Bachmann for the suicides. She was on the school board at the time and promulgated a "neutrality policy" on sexual orientation at schools. But, "neutrality" means that you can't say "Being gay is fine, leave Johnny alone about it," without risking discipline/your job. So the teachers and staff felt powerless to stop the bullying, and weren't allowed to train/educate the kids either, to make them more empathetic with their LGBTQ classmates. In the name of not "promoting" homosexuality and protecting the delicate feelings of the conservative community, nine kids died horrible, painful deaths. Smart, good students, so much potential.

Some survivors, also horribly bullied, filed a federal Title IX gender discrimination complaint (not acting in accordance with gender roles and being bullied for it, with the school taking no action, does come under "gender discrimination." I was interning for an AG not long after it happened, and I was so glad to have an office, because I was crying my eyes out as I went over the complaint, which described each horrid act. There, but for the fact that I waited to come out, go I! My school had some of the same ideas.

After this all came to light, a lot of people, and even some local papers, were saying "Bachmann's not protecting these kids contributed to their deaths- she has blood on her hands." I believe that's true. But, more broadly, so did the community. And so does anyone who is anti-gay, wants to deny rights, or even votes against them. You are creating a hostile climate where LGBTQ people are second-class. You are strengthening hate cloaked in religion and "values."

Being a second-class citizen, where many people, often even your own parents/family, hate you, is not easy. It causes depression, self-harm, and suicide. The LGBTQ community has suicide rates seven times the norm. But, with supportive, liberal environments, families that TRULY love, not just "love the sinner, hate the sin," the rates are no higher.

So, you say that abortion is murder. I think you are worse than an abortion doctor. Your votes, actions, and words, in the aggregate, create a world so hostile to people like myself that so many in my community would rather die than live in it. Examine your own responsibility. And like Lady Macbeth, that spot won't come out for you.

[Snarkylark]

I also have a hypothetical question- IF vaccines were found to be harmful do you think that the powers that be would admit it or admit that they were wrong? I think I read somewhere that JW now say blood transfusions maybe aren't as bad as they thought but they can never go back and change their position because of the outrage that would ensue because of people who have died from refusing blood products. I'm not talking about a bad batch of vaccines because I know they have pulled vaccines before because of intussusception (rotavirus, I think, when mine were littles) for example, but I mean on a wider scale.

[OkToBeTakei]

But I never said that. I never called anyone a murderer. Ever. I said I believe abortion is wrong. And I didn't say that gays shouldn't have the same rights. I said I'd bake them the cake because I think it's stupid not to. I tried to make it clear that even though "I" don't agree with abortion or gay marriage, I don't think people should be denied rights based on someone else's religious beliefs. I thought I made that clear. I don't discriminate against anyone and I don't judge anyone. I don't look down on people or think that I'm better than anyone. I don't think rosy daisy's comments were "nice" in any way.

I'm fairly sure Rosy did not intend her comment to be nice :lol:

You have made your opinion on abortion quite clear, starting page 3 when you berated a 'society where killing a fetus' was allowed. Peaking around Nazi-gate. Right up to when you posted the abortion figures for 2011.

Actually no you said the gay couple should just go to a bakery which would bake them a cake. You said the shop owners beliefs should be respected.

Of course you are saying you are very tolerant and don't judge anybody. So that's alrighty then.

[Snarkylark]

Lawlifelgbt, I think that's terrible. I don't understand why people can't treat everyone else with respect. I'm going to go out in a limb hate and say that it is not all religious people doing all the bullying of lgbt. It's all people, classes, etc. Bullying is such an issue these days that most schools have policies. Hard to enforce, yes. But I also know it's not just lgbt being bullied. It's the kids with disabilities, the religious kids, the ones whose parents are divorced, etc. and I don't say that to minimize anyone's feelings or struggles, just that people don't need any reason to treat others crappy. They just do! And I don't think that's ok. All I can do is start with my own kids and teach them to be respectful of everyone unless they are trying to hurt someone else and then they should stick up for the person being bullied. There will never be world peace until we can at least get along with each other in our own country. I don't have to agree with every single thing another person does in order to be able to treat them with kindness and respect. Why can't we all just get along?? I can empathize with the hurt you must feel and I'm sorry that has happened to you.

[OkToBeTakei]

From page 10

I am opposed to abortion on moral grounds. And while I understand that not everyone shares the same values I believe that it is murder. I can't be sorry for feeling that way.

[Snarkylark]

I'm fairly sure Rosy did not intend her comment to be nice :lol:

You have made your opinion on abortion quite clear, starting page 3 when you berated a 'society where killing a fetus' was allowed. Peaking around Nazi-gate. Right up to when you posted the abortion figures for 2011.

Actually no you said the gay couple should just go to a bakery which would bake them a cake. You said the shop owners beliefs should be respected.

Of course you are saying you are very tolerant and don't judge anybody. So that's alrighty then.

I said they "could" go to another bakery. I also said I'd bake the cake as I don't see it as participating in the marriage as some opposed to it do. I now understand the points about discrimination there. I'm stuck though between the rights of customers and the right to practice religion. I understand that's it's a business but businesses are made up of people that hold convictions and beliefs. I don't know how to reconcile those two so that there is a satisfactory answer for both parties to protect their rights, you know. Like I said, if we could all just be nice to each other this wouldn't be a problem. Idealistic, I know.

[lawlifelgbt]

Full disclosure: I was very nearly disowned when I got married, and myself and another couple I know were each attacked, separately and physically, just for "walking around while gay." One of my childhood neighbors got totally cut off from her entire family at barely 19 for being a lesbian. I was afraid to get married in my hometown due to possible refusal and violence, and basically "panic-wed" in order to get SOME kind of recognition of our relationship/rights (because many people don't give unmarried same-sex couples the same sort of recognition that they do for unmarried straight couples, e.g. seeing the relationship as "real," allowing one's partner on the lease, etc.). People need to know what bigotry and conservative ideas cause.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

[FundieFarmer]

I started a new one as the other post was getting quite long.

Also I live in the bay area- and while i can only speak about my county- the places labled as rich hot spots are not rich

It's funny how you say they are the rich

Vallejo is totally a getto

El ceritto is okayyyy schools have 6 ratings on Zillow ect. Ive considered moving there but they would be my lowest choice.

Maybe the households make more than 75,000 a year but to live any where in the bay area u need to make 75k. Making over 100k u stillcan't live anywhere nice. To live some where nice in the bay area you have to pay at least 3k per month on rent. To buy a home in my home town I would need 1million but half the price 20 minutes away in a bad town. But u still need at least 75k for the bad neighborhoods. U have to adjust your definition or rich for the bay.

I really do believe in vaccines just again not tying them to school.

But kinda playing devil's advocate after this point / rasing questions but not what I believe...

Why do u think its the college educated people who are against it??

I mean not because you know they do because of the study ; but why do u think they are against it?

If they are so smart

I would maybe think they know something and everyone else is stupid.

But I also know that really the rich are just entitled and don't really think anything bad will ever happen to THEM.

I certainly don't.

You seem to have quite the judgment against the wealthy for someone living in a town with a supposed minimum $1m home value. The wealthy do not think nothing bad will ever happen to them- the sheltered and naive do, and that's not determined by wealth. I went to school with many individuals wealthy beyond imagination (think international oil money, grandchildren of the top political families in the U.S., children of pro athletes, etc) and some of those families had more sordid and painful histories than you could imagine. Tragedy doesn't strike based on social standing, though the way it's addressed may look different. I hope you're not saying you don't think anything negative will happen to you, because inevitably, something will, and with that perspective, it'll knock you on your ass.

What are you trying to say the educated are against? I couldn't tell. If you're saying they're against vaccinations, while I believe someone upthread said the educated are against it, I would argue the opposite. In my experience, the highly educated have been taught and value critical thinking and statistical analysis, and for the most part do not buy into the ridiculous conspiracy theories spouted by anti-vaxxers. The statistics I found suggested that the anti-vax movement is skewed toward a younger demographic, mainly what I'd call yuppie parents, and childless yuppies, who are into the organic or natural lifestyles and are against government oversight. They may be educated, but they also have not been confronted with the dangers of the diseases we have mitigated as their elders were.

[OkToBeTakei]

I said they "could" go to another bakery. I also said I'd bake the cake as I don't see it as participating in the marriage as some opposed to it do. I now understand the points about discrimination there. I'm stuck though between the rights of customers and the right to practice religion. I understand that's it's a business but businesses are made up of people that hold convictions and beliefs. I don't know how to reconcile those two so that there is a satisfactory answer for both parties to protect their rights, you know. Like I said, if we could all just be nice to each other this wouldn't be a problem. Idealistic, I know.

I don't believe gays have a right to force their beliefs on a private business by suing them over not making a dang cake. Seriously. Find another baker.

^Your words.

Look, you are entitled to your opinions. Just don't try and pretend you are some kind tolerant soul who wants to teach the world to sing. You clearly are not. You are also clearly not bright enough to even pull it off on the internet.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

I also have a hypothetical question- IF vaccines were found to be harmful do you think that the powers that be would admit it or admit that they were wrong? I think I read somewhere that JW now say blood transfusions maybe aren't as bad as they thought but they can never go back and change their position because of the outrage that would ensue because of people who have died from refusing blood products. I'm not talking about a bad batch of vaccines because I know they have pulled vaccines before because of intussusception (rotavirus, I think, when mine were littles) for example, but I mean on a wider scale.

DUH they'd admit it. It's not at all uncommon for drugs to be recalled and those who were put on the drugs to receive compensation for the drugs being found to be dangerous. Also, as stated much earlier in this discussion, there is little to no profit in vaccines, which is why only 5 of the 30 companies that provided vaccines 30 years ago still provide them today. If they were found to be harmful, none of the companies would even bother with making vaccines, and they'd focus on the profit they make from allowing outbreaks to happen.

[FundieFarmer]

I was going to reply to SnarkyLark's hypothetical question post, but DuggarsTheEndIsNear pretty much said it all.

Did want to say- having worked in Big Pharma for a while, there is significantly less conspiracy there than people seem to think. I'm not sure where that comes from, but based on my experience it's all BS. The rules & regs we followed, as well as the thought & care we put into our products was unlike anything I've seen in any other production industry.

Those companies don't have room for error. There's always another org right around the corner waiting to swoop in when the patents run out and make a huge profit. One wrong move and the whole thing folds. It's no joke, and they really do care about their end-users.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

You seem to have quite the judgment against the wealthy for someone living in a town with a supposed minimum $1m home value. The wealthy do not think nothing bad will ever happen to them- the sheltered and naive do, and that's not determined by wealth. I went to school with many individuals wealthy beyond imagination (think international oil money, grandchildren of the top political families in the U.S., children of pro athletes, etc) and some of those families had more sordid and painful histories than you could imagine. Tragedy doesn't strike based on social standing, though the way it's addressed may look different. I hope you're not saying you don't think anything negative will happen to you, because inevitably, something will, and with that perspective, it'll knock you on your ass.

What are you trying to say the educated are against? I couldn't tell. If you're saying they're against vaccinations, while I believe someone upthread said the educated are against it, I would argue the opposite. In my experience, the highly educated have been taught and value critical thinking and statistical analysis, and for the most part do not buy into the ridiculous conspiracy theories spouted by anti-vaxxers. The statistics I found suggested that the anti-vax movement is skewed toward a younger demographic, mainly what I'd call yuppie parents, and childless yuppies, who are into the organic or natural lifestyles and are against government oversight. They may be educated, but they also have not been confronted with the dangers of the diseases we have mitigated as their elders were.

The demographics I've found say that it's "educated," but they never say "highly educated." They also say that you're more likely to be anti-vax if you have a friend on your social media who is.

[FundieFarmer]

The demographics I've found say that it's "educated," but they never say "highly educated." They also say that you're more likely to be anti-vax if you have a friend on your social media who is.

Maybe there's a threshold for educated vs highly educated on who'll tolerate this bullshit?

Bahahahaha if I did everything my friends on social did, I'd be a Confederate flag waiving hooligan crossed with a liberal environmentalist Capitol Hill intern. (.......maybe I should clean out my friends, though I have to say, the former is just such a train wreck, I can't!)

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

Maybe there's a threshold for educated vs highly educated on who'll tolerate this bullshit?

Bahahahaha if I did everything my friends on social did, I'd be a Confederate flag waiving hooligan crossed with a liberal environmentalist Capitol Hill intern. (.......maybe I should clean out my friends, though I have to say, the former is just such a train wreck, I can't!)

I'd be an atheist, god fearing fundie who wanted to outlaw guns while waving around rifles and yelling "second amendment rights" at the top of my lungs, who said ignorant bullshit about the LGBTQ+ community while promoting LGBTQ+ rights, and who promoted women's rights (particularly the right to choose) while wearing "I survived Roe v Wade" shirts. My facebook is a lovely concoction of the country's most volatile topics and their stances.

[Mama Mia]

I was going to reply to SnarkyLark's hypothetical question post, but DuggarsTheEndIsNear pretty much said it all.

Did want to say- having worked in Big Pharma for a while, there is significantly less conspiracy there than people seem to think. I'm not sure where that comes from, but based on my experience it's all BS. The rules & regs we followed, as well as the thought & care we put into our products was unlike anything I've seen in any other production industry.

Those companies don't have room for error. There's always another org right around the corner waiting to swoop in when the patents run out and make a huge profit. One wrong move and the whole thing folds. It's no joke, and they really do care about their end-users.

Really? Maybe you should read the transcripts of some of their product liability trials to see just how caring they are when it comes to their bottom line. They would give tobacco companies a run for their money.

[FundieFarmer]

Really? Maybe you should read the transcripts of some of their product liability trials to see just how caring they are when it comes to their bottom line. They would give tobacco companies a run for their money.

Yes, really. That wasn't my experience, and as I said above, based on my experience I think it's largely BS. I have no doubt there are some that have that mentality, which is why I said "significantly less conspiracy" and not "none". But the company I worked for didn't have that mentality, and many of them don't.

[Snarkylark]

^Your words.

Look, you are entitled to your opinions. Just don't try and pretend you are some kind tolerant soul who wants to teach the world to sing. You clearly are not. You are also clearly not bright enough to even pull it off on the internet.

I was trying to get a point across there. ^

My point being that whose beliefs trump whose? I addressed that in a recent post where I said I'm having a hard time deciding whose rights should prevail- a private business owner who is trying to practice his religion or the gay couple who wants a cake, you know? I think if it was the actual marriage license we were talking about it would be different because you're talking about a government office denying rights. I do think that society has a long way to go.

[Mama Mia]

The demographics I've found say that it's "educated," but they never say "highly educated." They also say that you're more likely to be anti-vax if you have a friend on your social media who is.

Is there a break down in the study that separates out " educated" and " highly educated" ? If there isn't, than what is your point? Are you trying to say there is some middle ground of " educated" that is anti- vax? Is that borne out by anything?

Really, a lot of the comments above don't even make sense -- the anti- vax movement skewed towards a " younger" demographic of yuppies and childless yuppies? I don't see how " yuppies" would fall into a younger age group, by anyone's standards.

Anyone who is a parent of school age child requiring vaccinations and is a " yuppie" is going to be at the oldest end of the childbearing spectrum. Are you comparing them to people who are well past the age of having children in school and would have seen these diseases? Because that would be completely irrelevant. When discussing who vaccinated and who doesn't.

The fact is that it is relatively wealthier and more educated parents who are less likely to vaccinate. Twisting it doesn't change that.

I don't even know what to say about a belief that a law that says, in effect, only wealthy parents are able to exercise an option they believe in makes it ok to have that law. How is it acceptable to have vaccine exemptions allowed as long as the parents are wealthy? ( not that $75,000 a year in the Bay Area is wealthy, because you can't even buy a house on that income in the area)

And I'm still really curious about the eye drops conversation as it relates to antibiotic resistance.

Sorry, but between the view of big pharma as compassionate do- gooders and using antibacterial soap as a good example -- I'm getting more and more sceptical.

I will freely admit my own experience with a medical mishap influences my thoughts in this area. Just as your experience working with a pharmaceutical company influences yours. But in my experience, most patients who have been injured by a bad product just get the run around and brushed off by the companies. If they aren't just outright screwed over.

[FundieFarmer]

I didn't say Big Pharma is full of compassionate do-gooders, I just said there's less conspiracy there than people think and that many actually do care about their end-users. Sorry if you don't believe me, but I've seen it first-hand. ETA: I just saw your edit, and I'm sorry you had a negative experience. That's just as valid to me as my own personal experience, and I know that happens. Healthcare fucks up. Doctors fuck up, nurses fuck up, Pharma fucks up, hell, even marketing fucks up. But one doesn't equal all, and I've just gotten very tired of the BIG PHARMA WANTS TO KILL US argument the anti-vaxxers are spewing. If the only motivation truly was money, Pharma would be hesitant to make vaccines at all.

I said what I did about organic yuppies because it seemed nicer than saying hipsters, in so many words. But the info I looked at said hipstery-types are less likely to vaccinate. And I said they're more likely not to vaccinate because they haven't seen the consequences of the diseases they should be vaccinating against, because several sources have said as much. It isn't that older people aren't vaccinating their children as much as it is that older adults don't seem to make up the majority of the anti-vax demographic- children or not. I'll go find links to where I read all of that when I'm back at a computer. Sorry for sticking "highly" in front of "educated"- I didn't realize that would cause such a semantics cluster. But like I said, in my experience it's the educated who are having their kids vaccinated. Apparently other sources say differently. I've been wrong before, so this wouldn't be the first time :lol:

I've got nothing for you on the antibiotic resistance or soap, and I don't think anybody said the wealthy should get exemptions- I sure didn't, because that's fucked up.

Edited because the sass game is real tonight thanks to a beastly headache and some IRL nonsense, and I needed to tone it down.