CA has mandatory vaccination/CA Bans Personal Belief Exemp

[Snarkylark]

Quoting myself again.

I would also be interested in knowing when you draw the line at people giving up individual rights for the good of society. I've listed examples earlier, but to remind you, things like speed limits, car insurance, burning trash, rabies vaccines for pets, someone else brought up smoking outside of public buildings.

Yes, but none of those examples are medical procedures. I see that as the difference.

[OkToBeTakei]

I think Snarkylark has along with linking to references which actually contradict what she is trying to say has maybe forgotten what she is trying to say, so many hoops, so much jumping...

Forced medical procedures are never a good thing. What kind of society are we in where one can terminate a fetus but can't choose whether or not to vaccinate without repercussions?

Vaccination be like abortion.

Exactly! People who CHOOSE to be vaccinated. If vaccines work, why are you worried about catching anything from the unvaxxed?

Did anyone die in the measles outbreak? Was anyone irreparably harmed? Didn't think so and in fact those people now have LIFE LONG immunity to measles. Did you know that the live measles virus is shed after vaccination, making VACCINATED kids more at risk of spreading the virus than an unvaccinated one?

You can't catch anything from an unvaxxed person. Nobody died in the measles outbreak. So that's ok then.

Vaccines are now required in CA, making it a forced procedure if one wants to attend school. Can't you see the slippery slope here? When the U.S. Decides we should only have one or two children as China has, what do you think will happen?

No one is talking about not getting the polio vaccine. It's definitely one most people should get. The problem is the taking of freedom of choice away.

California be like China. Slippery slope.

You can choose now to get vaccinated to protect yourself. Did you have chicken pox as a child? If so, you don't need a vaccination because you are protected for life and you won't get CP again (typically.) The pneumo and CP vac are available for adults. Get them if you're concerned about it. They can check your titers to see if immunity has waned and you need boosters.

I find it interesting that you think it's ok to subject a child to potential vaccine injury so YOU won't get sick. Stay out of the public then. Same argument as those you want to force vaccinations on.

Oh look you can't get chickenpox twice. Typically. If you are worried about getting sick just stay out of public.

Taken from another debate-

Vaccines or no vaccines it is about freedom to choose what you do to your body --- hell seems those that want forced vaccines are the same that scream the loudest about "choice" for abortions. Hypocrites! Last time I checked this was the USA but the greed and the government are trying to change that. Seems they're trying to repeat Nazi Germany -- how Hilter started the insanity--- healthcare. Be brave and check an honest history book. God bless the children.

Abortion. Nazis. Hitler.

Anyway ...it's just hard to take a poster seriously even if some of the points may be worth a look, when they flip-flop and change the goal posts so often with such dramatic flair.

[formergothardite]

Yes, but none of those examples are medical procedures. I see that as the difference.

So yes, you are admitting that people choosing to not vaccinate can and has negatively impacted communities. You also say that there should be no forced medical procedures. So what about Polio? I grew up hearing stories from my grandma and mother about the fear surrounding Polio. What do you think should happen if so many people stop vaccinating that polio comes back? Still nothing?

[Mama Mia]

I'm just curious, from people in general -- virtually everyone here seems extremely strongly pro- mandatory vaccination - with no deviation from whatever the current recommendations and schedule are. Except , of course, if there are medical contraindications. Are the people in your real life just as adamant? Or is there some range of opinion? Or does it just not come up in conversation? I'm honestly just wondering.

The people I know ( when it's come up, which admittedly isn't very often ) -- most of the parents of young children vaccinate, but many will space them out, or start later, or refuse some ( Guardasil or the flu vaccine primarily ) .

Is this like other sensitive subjects where if people disagree in real life they don't really talk about it -- or does it cause real life arguments?

I just looked up the kindergarten complete vaccination rates for schools in my county. As an aside, I believe - but could be wrong -- that these numbers are taken at registration, not at first day of school -- so can be misleading, as many children get various boosters right before school starts. IIRC , this number can be particularly off if new immunizations have been recently added to the schedule.

In any case -- the rates range from 100% from one school where virtually all of the children have received special outreach ( a grant that provides medical / educational / resources to pre- schoolers because most of the parents have limited English and are extremely low income ) ....down to around 60% for a few schools. Many are in the 90% range, but I was surprised to see a large number in the 60. - 80% range. Private and charter schools had a large range as well, but several were below 50%.

What was also interesting ( to me ) was that the lowest immunization rates were represented by a range of demographics. One school in an extremely poor area. A few ( expected ) in an area with many hippies and survivalist / libertarian types . And the rest were the wealthiest schools.

[formergothardite]

I am actually not pro-mandatory vaccines(though I see why it appears that way in this thread). :lol: And I think there should be a discussion about the current recommendations and schedule. I turned down the Hep-B vaccine in the hospital for both my children and got it later. Do things need to be changed? Probably. But this discussion needs to be had without people using fake science. If Snarklark had not brought up fake science, Hitler, abortion, and China, this thread probably would have gone an entirely different direction.

My mother is friends with a woman whose child had a real, very tragic vaccine injury. So I'm not claiming that no one is ever hurt by vaccines, But there needs to be an honest discussion about the issue and that includes a discussion about how links like CaliVaxChoice that provides false information scare people into not vaccinating.

I also think that there needs to be a real discussion about what happens when people buy into this false information and stop vaccinating. The people who I know who are ant-vax would freak out if the government sent people to quarantine them in their house like what used to happen. And plus, because so many of these diseases have not been around for a long time, many people don't recognize the symptoms. On top of that, they say things like Snarklylark has said about how no one really dies or is irreparable harmed. With all the fear and people determined to believe false information, it is hard to have an honest discussion about this issue.

[Wingnut]

I'm just curious, from people in general -- virtually everyone here seems extremely strongly pro- mandatory vaccination - with no deviation from whatever the current recommendations and schedule are. Except , of course, if there are medical contraindications. Are the people in your real life just as adamant? Or is there some range of opinion? Or does it just not come up in conversation? I'm honestly just wondering.

The people I know ( when it's come up, which admittedly isn't very often ) -- most of the parents of young children vaccinate, but many will space them out, or start later, or refuse some ( Guardasil or the flu vaccine primarily ) .

Is this like other sensitive subjects where if people disagree in real life they don't really talk about it -- or does it cause real life arguments?

I just looked up the kindergarten complete vaccination rates for schools in my county. As an aside, I believe - but could be wrong -- that these numbers are taken at registration, not at first day of school -- so can be misleading, as many children get various boosters right before school starts. IIRC , this number can be particularly off if new immunizations have been recently added to the schedule.

In any case -- the rates range from 100% from one school where virtually all of the children have received special outreach ( a grant that provides medical / educational / resources to pre- schoolers because most of the parents have limited English and are extremely low income ) ....down to around 60% for a few schools. Many are in the 90% range, but I was surprised to see a large number in the 60. - 80% range. Private and charter schools had a large range as well, but several were below 50%.

What was also interesting ( to me ) was that the lowest immunization rates were represented by a range of demographics. One school in an extremely poor area. A few ( expected ) in an area with many hippies and survivalist / libertarian types . And the rest were the wealthiest schools.

I have been reading this thread with quite a bit of facination. I am a parent as are most of my friends. We have never had this conversation. The most it ever gets mentioned is the "its shot day, pray for me. Lol" type stuff.

I did read up on and question all the vacc my kids received, but it was to make sure I knew what they were receiving; not because I considered refusing them across the board.

[FundieFarmer]

I'm pro-mandatory-vax, as I'm sure surprises absolutely nobody here :lol:

We all had them for school growing up at a large private school, where it was 100% mandatory- no personal exemptions allowed. Flu shots weren't mandatory, but everybody just got them anyway. Gardasil wasn't either, but that's just because it was new around the age when we would've been getting it. I don't personally care if parents choose to rework the schedule with their physician's approval, but I don't think it's necessary.

Sort of on topic, I'm a huge proponent of Gardasil. I actually wouldn't be mad if it were put into the mandatory vax schedule. At this point, over 80% of individuals who've had sex will get HPV at some point in their lives, so why not be proactive and address it to try to reduce the number of cases? One shot is far, far worse than the potential consequences of HPV.

[Mama Mia]

I'm pro-mandatory-vax, as I'm sure surprises absolutely nobody here :lol:

We all had them for school growing up at a large private school, where it was 100% mandatory- no personal exemptions allowed. Flu shots weren't mandatory, but everybody just got them anyway. Gardasil wasn't either, but that's just because it was new around the age when we would've been getting it. I don't personally care if parents choose to rework the schedule with their physician's approval, but I don't think it's necessary.

Sort of on topic, I'm a huge proponent of Gardasil. I actually wouldn't be mad if it were put into the mandatory vax schedule. At this point, over 80% of individuals who've had sex will get HPV at some point in their lives, so why not be proactive and address it to try to reduce the number of cases? One shot is far, far worse than the potential consequences of HPV.

This is where you get into the slippery slope argument that worries people.

For one -- the vast majority of people who contract HPV have no long term problems and don't contract cervical cancer. In fact, most of the time HPV leaves the body on its own, much like other viruses.

There is also the question of long term side effects from Gardasil. It can be very difficult to prove a direct cause , or an accurate number ---but that doesn't really help the young women who may have been impacted. Even the Gardasil manufacturers site acknowledges that things like muscle aches, joint pain, fatigue, feeling just generally un- well , should be reported - even months later. The big problems are that 1) very few people are going to go the FDA site and make reports because they don't make the connection - and don't even know about the site. And 2) even if they do report, there's no way to know for sure if that was the cause, or a trigger, or not even related.

People also tend to be very dismissive of that type of side effect. However if they lived very day with those sorts of issues, they likely would take it more seriously. As I said in an earlier post -- one of my daughters has had these issues since around the time she got her Gardasil vaccine. It does make her life more difficult. She's now a working mom of young kids - so tired goes with the territory. But being chronically run down and aching makes it much harder. I have no real idea if it was the Gardasil - but I also don't have any other likely explanations.

Also, with HPV, a mandatory vaccine is definitely moving out of the territory of protecting the general public or herd immunity or any of that.

[Snarkylark]

I'm pro-mandatory-vax, as I'm sure surprises absolutely nobody here :lol:

We all had them for school growing up at a large private school, where it was 100% mandatory- no personal exemptions allowed. Flu shots weren't mandatory, but everybody just got them anyway. Gardasil wasn't either, but that's just because it was new around the age when we would've been getting it. I don't personally care if parents choose to rework the schedule with their physician's approval, but I don't think it's necessary.

Sort of on topic, I'm a huge proponent of Gardasil. I actually wouldn't be mad if it were put into the mandatory vax schedule. At this point, over 80% of individuals who've had sex will get HPV at some point in their lives, so why not be proactive and address it to try to reduce the number of cases? One shot is far, far worse than the potential consequences of HPV.

See, that's what many people are concerned about- mandating vaccines like gardasil. It's not commmunicable in the same way that say, measles is. Believe it or not, there are people out there that don't have sex with multiple partners or are abstinent until marriage;) Not only that but many times the body fights off the HPV without turning into cancer. And the vaccine only covers some of the strains that can cause cancer.

[OkToBeTakei]

This is where you get into the slippery slope argument that worries people.

For one -- the vast majority of people who contract HPV have no long term problems and don't contract cervical cancer. In fact, most of the time HPV leaves the body on its own, much like other viruses.

There is also the question of long term side effects from Gardasil. It can be very difficult to prove a direct cause , or an accurate number ---but that doesn't really help the young women who may have been impacted. Even the Gardasil manufacturers site acknowledges that things like muscle aches, joint pain, fatigue, feeling just generally un- well , should be reported - even months later. The big problems are that 1) very few people are going to go the FDA site and make reports because they don't make the connection - and don't even know about the site. And 2) even if they do report, there's no way to know for sure if that was the cause, or a trigger, or not even related.

People also tend to be very dismissive of that type of side effect. However if they lived very day with those sorts of issues, they likely would take it more seriously. As I said in an earlier post -- one of my daughters has had these issues since around the time she got her Gardasil vaccine. It does make her life more difficult. She's now a working mom of young kids - so tired goes with the territory. But being chronically run down and aching makes it much harder. I have no real idea if it was the Gardasil - but I also don't have any other likely explanations.

Also, with HPV, a mandatory vaccine is definitely moving out of the territory of protecting the general public or herd immunity or any of that.

It's more a personal choice issue. Although socialised healthcare may argue differently.

[formergothardite]

IRL most of the people I know fall into three categories.

The first either vaccinate on schedule or delay/space out some vaccines. This is the majority of the people I know.

The second are the people who read some wacky site that has fake science, get worried, ask about it on FB and then when people show it is fake info they, are relieved and vaccinate.

The third group posts crazy websites full of fake info on FB and when people point out how the info is not accurate, dig their heels in and refuse to admit that the website isn't reliable. They claim no one really dies of vaccine preventable diseases and if someone actually does they pretty much ignore it. They say things like "If you are vaccinated why are you afraid of catching things from unvaccinated people?" When you explain to them why they ignore you and ask the same thing again. You can't reason with them and they will only believe things that confirm what they want to believe. This group seems to be growing.

[formergothardite]

Snarkylark, you said this about about polio.

No one is talking about not getting the polio vaccine. It's definitely one most people should get.

What do you think should happen if so many people believe shitty websites like that Cali Vax Choice, stop vaccinating and polio makes a come back?

[Snarkylark]

IRL most of the people I know fall into three categories.

The first either vaccinate on schedule or delay/space out some vaccines. This is the majority of the people I know.

The second are the people who read some wacky site that has fake science, get worried, ask about it on FB and then when people show it is fake info they, are relieved and vaccinate.

The third group posts crazy websites full of fake info on FB and when people point out how the info is not accurate, dig their heels in and refuse to admit that the website isn't reliable. They claim no one really dies of vaccine preventable diseases and if someone actually does they pretty much ignore it. They say things like "If you are vaccinated why are you afraid of catching things from unvaccinated people?" When you explain to them why they ignore you and ask the same thing again. You can't reason with them and they will only believe things that confirm what they want to believe. This group seems to be growing.

1: I said I didn't look at the entire website to determine whether everything in there was accurate. I thought it helped to explain that outbreaks can happen in fully vaxxed communities.

2: the woman who died who apparently had measles died from pneumonia, which can be a complication from measles. Can we prove that the measles caused the pneumonia? Or could it have been any numbers of reasons that caused her pneumonia? She was immunocompromised. There are many causes for pneumonia. Viral, bacterial, inhalation, aspiration. And I don't say this to discredit it because I'm really curious how we can prove the measles was the cause of her pneumonia. Just like we can't PROVE a vaccine triggered GBS. I know this is a new story and I don't live in the state that it happened and I haven't watched the news or seen any coverage of it besides one or two online sources with not a whole lot of information. I'm not minimizing her death in any way I'm just really asking because I haven't heard really anything other than "a patient died from measles." I'm sure I could find the answer but is there some way we can prove it was measles pneumonia?

3: yes, Vaccines do work on an individual basis. Herd immunity is not the only way vaccines work. It's one of the ways they work. If vaccines don't protect the individual that's vaccinated then there's no herd effect. Make sense? Yes, there may be some individuals that the vaccine doesn't trigger the expected response. Afaik, that's not the majority. So, individually, if you've been vaccinated and you have the expected response, you probably won't get sick. I do understand that not having the majority vaccinated allows "holes" in the herd and allows more cases to potentially spread. But there will still be many vaccinated that don't get sick because they had the vaccination and it worked to protect them.

[Snarkylark]

Snarkylark, you said this about about polio.

What do you think should happen if so many people believe shitty websites like that Cali Vax Choice, stop vaccinating and polio makes a come back?

I think that's part of the "problem" with the way vaccines work, is that they DO WORK. So, yes, rates of vaccine preventable diseases drop so it may make people less likely to vax. I imagine if that were the case that those who chose not to get the vaccine would be first in line to get it. At the same time, our knowledge on health, accessibility of health care, availability of antibiotics, and sanitation is a lot different than it was even 50-100 years ago. Viruses and bacteria die off, adapt, drift. Like smallpox for example. It's gone. We don't even vaccinate for it anymore. Perhaps efforts to eradicate polio worldwide would help us to avoid the spread of it here.

[FundieFarmer]

It's more a personal choice issue. Although socialised healthcare may argue differently.

My GYN and GP both assert it is becoming a public health issue due to the percentage of the population with it. Like I said, I wouldn't care if it were included if only because rates of contraction are rising substantially, there are multiple ways of getting it, and it can lead to some severe consequences. I get that others don't agree, and that's why it's still a choice now.

SnarkyLark, I know that a lot of people plan to wait and some achieve that, but sometimes it isn't planned or wanted. And even if one partner waits, the other partner may already have contracted it. Personally, I think it's better to protect yourself if you can.

[formergothardite]

Snarkylark, you keep saying that that website proves that outbreaks happen in fully vaccinated communities, but what it showed is that we haven't always had the vaccine schedule and amount correct and that herd immunity and vaccines work, totally different then what you are saying. Just like Ezzo the Monster you keep saying that liars are actually a good source of advice. You shouldn't need to go look at the rest of the website. Just look at that one page, see that they twist info for an agenda and then realize it is a shitty place to get information.

So if someone catches a vaccine preventable disease and dies from a complication of that disease, but you can't prove that they wouldn't have had that complication without the disease, you don't think it counts?

Yes, many people who are vaccinated won't get sick, but they can, which means that people start making vaccine decisions based on fake science and stop vaccinating, they can still spread it to vaccinated people. So these people are making a decision that impacts the rest of us. They should at least do it based on reliable information, but I have found most don't.

[formergothardite]

I think that's part of the "problem" with the way vaccines work, is that they DO WORK. So, yes, rates of vaccine preventable diseases drop so it may make people less likely to vax. I imagine if that were the case that those who chose not to get the vaccine would be first in line to get it. At the same time, our knowledge on health, accessibility of health care, availability of antibiotics, and sanitation is a lot different than it was even 50-100 years ago. Viruses and bacteria die off, adapt, drift. Like smallpox for example. It's gone. We don't even vaccinate for it anymore. Perhaps efforts to eradicate polio worldwide would help us to avoid the spread of it here.

So basically children have to start getting sick for people to finally stop believing fake science? I actually think that is the answer too. Kids are going to have to start getting really, really sick. People are going to have to be quarantined. But it is sad that even in this discussion, we couldn't have it without abortion, Hitler, fake science websites, and China being brought up. That is a big problem and means that an real discussion can't happen. I just hate that it will probably take children suffering and dying before people stop believing all these shitty websites that spread false information. And it isn't just going to impact the people who refuse to vaccinate, it will impact all of us.

[FakePigtails]

Snarkylark, you keep saying that that website proves that outbreaks happen in fully vaccinated communities, but what it showed is that we haven't always had the vaccine schedule and amount correct and that herd immunity and vaccines work, totally different then what you are saying. Just like Ezzo the Monster you keep saying that liars are actually a good source of advice. You shouldn't need to go look at the rest of the website. Just look at that one page, see that they twist info for an agenda and then realize it is a shitty place to get information.

So if someone catches a vaccine preventable disease and dies from a complication of that disease, but you can't prove that they wouldn't have had that complication without the disease, you don't think it counts?

Yes, many people who are vaccinated won't get sick, but they can, which means that people start making vaccine decisions based on fake science and stop vaccinating, they can still spread it to vaccinated people. So these people are making a decision that impacts the rest of us. They should at least do it based on reliable information, but I have found most don't.

It's interesting that when it's someone who gets measles and dies from resulting pneumonia it's maybe not from measles so we shouldn't assume, but when anything odd happens at all within even months of vaccines (that don't have nearly the relationship with the vaccine that measles and pneumonia do), that's probably from the vaccine so people need to be careful and in the case of Gardasil, never ever get it :roll:

[Snarkylark]

So basically children have to start getting sick for people to finally stop believing fake science? I actually think that is the answer too. Kids are going to have to start getting really, really sick. People are going to have to be quarantined. But it is sad that even in this discussion, we couldn't have it without abortion, Hitler, fake science websites, and China being brought up. That is a big problem and means that an real discussion can't happen. I just hate that it will probably take children suffering and dying before people stop believing all these shitty websites that spread false information. And it isn't just going to impact the people who refuse to vaccinate, it will impact all of us.

I already said the Hitler part should have been removed, was not my own words, and was not the direction I was trying to go.

By bringing China into it I was saying that is a fear that I don't think we can ignore because I really truly think that if it starts with one thing (mandatory vaccinations) it can lead to others (population control.) I am well aware that that is a slippery slope argument. But what stops that (population control) from happening? If there are enough lobbyists trying to convince Elected officials that we need it, all bets are off. I don't think the government should be able to force us to comply with their demands when it comes to our body.

[Snarkylark]

It's interesting that when it's someone who gets measles and dies from resulting pneumonia it's maybe not from measles so we shouldn't assume, but when anything odd happens at all within even months of vaccines (that don't have nearly the relationship with the vaccine that measles and pneumonia do), that's probably from the vaccine so people need to be careful and in the case of Gardasil, never ever get it :roll:

That's the point I'm trying to make in reverse. Someone gets sick or worse after a vaccine but we can't prove it was from the vaccine as many people in this thread have said.

[Snarkylark]

I also did not say to never get the gardasil vaccine. I said my kids haven't received it.

[formergothardite]

I already said the Hitler part should have been removed, was not my own words, and was not the direction I was trying to go.

By bringing China into it I was saying that is a fear that I don't think we can ignore because I really truly think that if it starts with one thing (mandatory vaccinations) it can lead to others (population control.) I am well aware that that is a slippery slope argument. But what stops that (population control) from happening? If there are enough lobbyists trying to convince Elected officials that we need it, all bets are off. I don't think the government should be able to force us to comply with their demands when it comes to our body.

Well for starters you could look at the two states that have already had these laws and they haven't turned into China yet. Your arguments are reminding me of the anti-gay toaster/pet/car marriage arguments.

One of the biggest problems is the shitty fake science websites that are always brought up in these sorts of debates and the people who bring them up rarely are willing to admit they give out bad information, which makes it hard to have any sort of a reasonable conversation.

[apple1]

... Can we prove that the measles caused the pneumonia? ...

Yes. Post mortem culture of the pneumonia fluid growing measles virus, and not other organisms.

[formergothardite]

That's the point I'm trying to make in reverse. Someone gets sick or worse after a vaccine but we can't prove it was from the vaccine as many people in this thread have said.

And yet you didn't show any doubt when discussing the conversation you overheard about the woman whose daughter is paralyzed. Why didn't you say that it can't be proven the girl was paralyzed by the vaccine like you did with the woman who died of measles and it might have been caused by something else?

Overheard today at the pool from a woman sitting two chairs down... One of her friend's daughter was paralyzed form her gardasil vax. I don't know if it's Guillain Barre or permanent:(

[FakePigtails]

That's the point I'm trying to make in reverse. Someone gets sick or worse after a vaccine but we can't prove it was from the vaccine as many people in this thread have said.

How is someone getting tired or having an illness (with no reasonable scientific relationship to a vaccine) months after getting a vaccine comparable to someone dying of pneumonia while sick with measles? It's not, and most of those claims aren't even scientifically plausible. Sometimes people randomly get hit with nasty illnesses, and it just happens to be that they had a vaccine recently (recently to some being months). Correlation /= causation.

You keep making excuses for bad science and reading whatever you want into posts other people re making and it's making it impossible to get anywhere in this discussion.