CA has mandatory vaccination/CA Bans Personal Belief Exemp

[apple1]

HPV also has significant public health consequences - not just personal consequences.

And-

There are plenty of people who have only been intimate with their own spouse, yet contracted HIV due to the spouse's activities (pre- and/or post-marital). While all along, the person presented a different front.

[FakePigtails]

And yet you didn't show any doubt when discussing the conversation you overheard about the woman whose daughter is paralyzed. Why didn't you say that it can't be proven the girl was paralyzed by the vaccine like you did with the woman who died of measles and it might have been caused by something else?

And her own links show that most people with GBS get it from viral and bacterial illnesses, so the much more likely explanation is that the girl was sick weeks before and it resulted in GBS. You know, a delayed consequence of an illness that's actually proven to be related, unlike all these supposed Gardasil and other cases. Another example is measles and SSPE.

[Snarkylark]

And yet you didn't show any doubt when discussing the conversation you overheard about the woman whose daughter is paralyzed. Why didn't you say that it can't be proven the girl was paralyzed by the vaccine like you did with the woman who died of measles and it might have been caused by something else?

Overheard today at the pool from a woman sitting two chairs down... One of her friend's daughter was paralyzed form her gardasil vax. I don't know if it's Guillain Barre or permanent:(

I did in a later post. It shouldn't say "from" the vaccine. It should read "after."

[Snarkylark]

Well for starters you could look at the two states that have already had these laws and they haven't turned into China yet. Your arguments are reminding me of the anti-gay toaster/pet/car marriage arguments.

One of the biggest problems is the shitty fake science websites that are always brought up in these sorts of debates and the people who bring them up rarely are willing to admit they give out bad information, which makes it hard to have any sort of a reasonable conversation.

Lol, I'm glad you brought that up! Polygamists are looking to have their marriages recognized now too. And pedophiles are looking to have their "attraction" recognized as something they are born with. I understand that pedophiles prey on children and there is the consent issue there. But what age is able to give "consent" in UT for example. We know that FLDS children as young as 12 have been married off.

[Snarkylark]

And yet you didn't show any doubt when discussing the conversation you overheard about the woman whose daughter is paralyzed. Why didn't you say that it can't be proven the girl was paralyzed by the vaccine like you did with the woman who died of measles and it might have been caused by something else?

Overheard today at the pool from a woman sitting two chairs down... One of her friend's daughter was paralyzed form her gardasil vax. I don't know if it's Guillain Barre or permanent:(

I did say that it can't be proven that the vaccine caused it. But the CDC seems to think it's pretty important to mention it in their VIS. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/hcp/vis/vis ... s/flu.html

[formergothardite]

Lol, I'm glad you brought that up! Polygamists are looking to have their marriages recognized now too. And pedophiles are looking to have their "attraction" recognized as something they are born with. I understand that pedophiles prey on children and there is the consent issue there. But what age is able to give "consent" in UT for example. We know that FLDS children as young as 12 have been married off.

Are you anti-gay marriage? Personally don't have a problem with polygamy as long as it is between consenting adult. The low age of consent in Utah isn't related to gay marriage at all.

ETA: I brought those up not because they are good arguments, but because they are foolish ones that are typically used by people who are desperately grasping at straws to try and "prove" gay marriage shouldn't be allowed. Perhaps you misunderstood and thought that they were wise arguments?

[formergothardite]

I did say that it can't be proven that the vaccine caused it. But the CDC seems to think it's pretty important to mention it in their VIS. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/hcp/vis/vis ... s/flu.html

You only said that later after people debated you on the issue. Your initial reaction to hearing that didn't appear to be "Well there is no proof that the vaccine caused it." like your reaction to the woman who died of complications from the measles.

[Snarkylark]

And if you are around someone with an extremely weakened immune system you should not get the intranasal flu vaccine because you CAN spread it http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/hcp/vis/vis ... ulive.html

[Snarkylark]

Are you anti-gay marriage? Personally don't have a problem with polygamy as long as it is between consenting adult. The low age of consent in Utah isn't related to gay marriage at all.

ETA: I brought those up not because they are good arguments, but because they are foolish ones that are typically used by people who are desperately grasping at straws to try and "prove" gay marriage shouldn't be allowed. Perhaps you misunderstood and thought that they were wise arguments?

What people do in their own bedrooms is none of my business whether or not I agree with it, as long as all parties are consenting adults. UT age of consent was more for the polygamy side of it.

[Snarkylark]

You only said that later after people debated you on the issue. Your initial reaction to hearing that didn't appear to be "Well there is no proof that the vaccine caused it." like your reaction to the woman who died of complications from the measles.

I guess I assumed it was implied but clearly I need to spell things out so that I'm not misunderstood. The whole "internet and tone" thing, you know?

[Mama Mia]

How is someone getting tired or having an illness (with no reasonable scientific relationship to a vaccine) months after getting a vaccine comparable to someone dying of pneumonia while sick with measles? It's not, and most of those claims aren't even scientifically plausible. Sometimes people randomly get hit with nasty illnesses, and it just happens to be that they had a vaccine recently (recently to some being months). Correlation /= causation.

You keep making excuses for bad science and reading whatever you want into posts other people re making and it's making it impossible to get anywhere in this discussion.

It's a reasonable enough correlation that even the vaccine manufacturer is encouraging people to report it on the adverse events site - yes, even months later. And no, of course correlation doesn't equal causation -- but if you have lots and lots of people having Very similar negative health issues happen after taking the vaccine it certainly should be cause for concern. Oddly enough, vaccine manufacturers don't lock up thousands of test subjects for a year following a vaccine and control every single variable of their existence ( and lock up and monitor a control group) for months so you can absolutely, positively, scientifically determine the cause of the symptoms.

Also, you're both kind of saying exactly the same thing. But are both so entrenched in your arguments you won't acknowledge it.

[formergothardite]

What people do in their own bedrooms is none of my business whether or not I agree with it, as long as all parties are consenting adults. UT age of consent was more for the polygamy side of it.

That is a nice non-answer. Are you anti-gay marriage? Yes or no.

Also, are you still going to say that the Cali Vax Choice website is a reliable source of information?

[formergothardite]

I guess I assumed it was implied but clearly I need to spell things out so that I'm not misunderstood. The whole "internet and tone" thing, you know?

It isn't implied because your tone when speaking about people who are hurt by vaccine preventable diseases or by people who don't vaccinate and then spread diseases is different than when you speak about people who have been hurt by vaccines. Perhaps it has not been your intentions, but you have seemed to downplay the dangers of not vaccinating while elevating the dangers of vaccinating.

[Snarkylark]

What do my thoughts on gay marriage have to do with it?

And I've said numerous times that I never said calivax was a reliable source of information.

[happy atheist]

I did in a later post. It shouldn't say "from" the vaccine. It should read "after."

I got pregnant after I had my vaccinations. I guess that means that vaccinations cause pregnancy, too.

[happy atheist]

What do my thoughts on gay marriage have to do with it?

And I've said numerous times that I never said calivax was a reliable source of information.

So, formergothardite, that means she does not believe in marriage equality.

And she apparently thinks it's useful to post links to sites she does not consider reliable when trying to make her point in a debate.

[Snarkylark]

Also, you're both kind of saying exactly the same thing. But are both so entrenched in your arguments you won't acknowledge it.

I think so too! ;)

[happy atheist]

So basically children have to start getting sick for people to finally stop believing fake science? I actually think that is the answer too. Kids are going to have to start getting really, really sick. People are going to have to be quarantined. But it is sad that even in this discussion, we couldn't have it without abortion, Hitler, fake science websites, and China being brought up. That is a big problem and means that an real discussion can't happen. I just hate that it will probably take children suffering and dying before people stop believing all these shitty websites that spread false information. And it isn't just going to impact the people who refuse to vaccinate, it will impact all of us.

This is why vaccines need to be mandatory. People like snarkylark spread misinformation. Children shouldn't have to suffer in order for their parents to get their heads out of their asses. Society shouldn't have to suffer.

[Snarkylark]

So, formergothardite, that means she does not believe in marriage equality.

.

Putting words in my mouth AGAIN

[Snarkylark]

My response to the gay marriage issue is multi-layered and faceted. IMO, if the word "marriage" was taken out of it it would be a lot less inflammatory for some people. I'm not for denying people's rights as I have stated many times in this thread. MY personal, political, or religious views aside.

[mamallama]

She had measles. An already sick person went to the hospital and contracted a serious disease, that was until recently very uncommon thanks to good vaccine compliance, and died. The difference between this and the few people who will have reactions to vaccines is that it's an expected outcome when someone who's compromised gets measles not an anomaly.

[Snarkylark]

She had measles. An already sick person went to the hospital and contracted a serious disease, that was until recently very uncommon thanks to good vaccine compliance, and died. The difference between this and the few people who will have reactions to vaccines is that it's an expected outcome when someone who's compromised gets measles not an anomaly.

Right. Do we know this person's age? Or know if they were never vaccinated because she(?) had measles as a child? The couple things I read didn't say either.

[OkToBeTakei]

My response to the gay marriage issue is multi-layered and faceted. IMO, if the word "marriage" was taken out of it it would be a lot less inflammatory for some people. I'm not for denying people's rights as I have stated many times in this thread. MY personal, political, or religious views aside.

Why should the word marriage be taken out of it?

[OkToBeTakei]

It's a reasonable enough correlation that even the vaccine manufacturer is encouraging people to report it on the adverse events site - yes, even months later. And no, of course correlation doesn't equal causation -- but if you have lots and lots of people having Very similar negative health issues happen after taking the vaccine it certainly should be cause for concern. Oddly enough, vaccine manufacturers don't lock up thousands of test subjects for a year following a vaccine and control every single variable of their existence ( and lock up and monitor a control group) for months so you can absolutely, positively, scientifically determine the cause of the symptoms.

Also, you're both kind of saying exactly the same thing. But are both so entrenched in your arguments you won't acknowledge it.

I don't see it. Snarky lark keeps excusing or changing her previous opinions. I think FG is trying to unravel what admittedly is a lot of word salad. The main issue being the link she posted then admitted she did not read.

What it comes down to is that I think all intelligent people can understand that like any medication vaccines can and do have side effects and people can react differently. That may include all vaccines or in your case you suspect one vaccine.

What to me the problem is, people and worse somebody who is trying to lend further gravitas by claiming to be a health professional then uses this information to make blanket statements. Sure it's the internet she's probably a shit hot hairdresser for all I know.

Some of the crap she is spouting is not just the words of somebody who is not that bright but by 'claiming' to be a nurse she is trying 'influence.' That's really shitty online or not.

It has as other have pointed out ruined an extremely interesting thread. The moment anybody voices any kind of anecdotal story or opinion snarky lark jumps on the 'see I told you so' train and it is just plain unhelpful.

[Snarkylark]

Why should the word marriage be taken out of it?

I think if we were calling it civil unions some people may have less of a problem than calling it marriage.