Josh Duggar, Admitted Child Molester - Part 8

[SassyPants]

You are absolutely right, thank you for pointing that out. I should have double checked the date of posting on that one....I just assumed the same time line as the one above by, Alice. OK, so concernedmom has her facts scattered in her writing.

Her writing in general is scattered and hard to read.

He/she was po'd

[Mama Mia]

There's this, quoting from an In Touch story:

"Police referred the matter to the Families in Need of Services agency, which has jurisdiction over minors. The Department of Human Services (DHS) was then brought into the case, In Touch has learned. Nine months after those agencies entered the Duggar molestation case, Josh Duggar sued the Arkansas Department of Human Services. A trial was held on August 6, 2007.

The results of the investigation into the Duggars and Josh’s trial are sealed. But a source familiar with the Duggar investigation told In Touch it was likely that Josh “appealed the DHS decision or finding from their investigation.†The source notes that DHS had the authority to apply “restrictions or stipulations about him being at home with the victims."

So could this suit also be the Duggars appealing a requirement for Josh to receive secular counseling and substitute the Gothard version instead? Would the courts have allowed that?

In the police report, it states that Jim Bob didn't send Josh to a real rehab place because he didn't want him exposed to other offenders and "other things" that they didn't agree with. I translated this as "no way would Jim Bob let Josh interact freely and unmonitored with people outside of the cult."

Do any of our social workers have an opinion on this?

I shared my opinion on this somewhere already, so sorry for repeating -

For what it's worth I was a social worker with primarily CPS related cases in a different state - state laws vary tremendously so this could be completely off - the mark.

In my state juvenile records are sealed when the minor reaches 18, however this is not an automatic process. The young adult has to file paperwork to get the record sealed. I would assume that the wording would be similar to any other court proceeding - with the young adult as a Plantiff suing the County ( or state ) . The court date would fit, with Josh's age, I think.

Generally it's just a formality.

Think of it like a divorce or child support court order - the wording is the same - with plaintiffs suing defendants.

Im not sure if there is a similar process for DHS, but I wouldn't be at all surprised - especially in this type of case where there was a police investigation. It would also explain why the state is pissed that the report was given to the press. It shouldn't have been, in any case, of course due to confidentiality for minors. But if there had already been a specific order to have it sealed - that would be particularly bad.

I'm surprised that people are focusing more on the police not doing anything , than on why CPS didn't follow through, in this type of situation it would typically become the responsibility of CPS to order treatment, etc. at least in my experience it is less common for the criminal court and juvenile justice system to be the primary players when it's a young teen. Unless CPS didn't find out until years later? I don't know, I'm confused by the timelines.

And thinking about it - even if the church elders were somehow not mandated reporters ( which makes no sense ) -- What about whoever ran the treatment program? Wouldn't they have been mandated reporters? Even if Josh was mostly working on the construction - wasn't there supposedly some sort of counseling?

And why would Michelle minimize the treatment part in the police interview - and now? You'd think she'd be talking that up . The whole thing is so strange.

As far as Jim Bob talking to the sleazy cop - it could have been just luck of the draw. Or he did , maybe through church , know this officer had sexual boundary issues - his goal in speaking to him might not have been to evade the law - but because he figured this guy would have the most insight.

Again, just my theory on the possible reason for the suit.

[skulduggery]

And one more thing...

If Josh is capable of crafting an apology that revolved around his reputation, his life, his consequences, he's capable of understanding himself as an independent being from his father. If someone were only worried about the approval of his father or suffering under the oppressive shadow of his father, wouldn't he at least mention his father even once?

[Flyinthesoup]

I think we're missing chunks of information here so we aren't looking at a complete picture.

The letter/memo in the book story is weird. The story about the woman who contacted Oprah - but not the authorities or apparently even TLC is weird.

But the strangest thing for me is Jim Bob going to the state trooper who really, really enjoyed kiddie porn (56 years in prison!) for the "scared straight" lecture. Were he and Jim Bob such good friends that Jim Bob trusted him not to contact the local authorities? As mandatory reporters go, I would imagine cops are at the top of the list. Jim Bob apparently did not want this actually investigated, or he'd have made a report with the local cops, not a state trooper pal. What did he know about this guy? How could he have been so sure the guy wouldn't turn Josh in?

So many odd things about this whole story.

I am beginning to wonder if Alice is a TLC person, who has connection with HARPO studios...just because of the details she gives. She gives a lot of details that give me the idea she is closely connected.

Maybe she did try to contact the authorities and was unsuccessful....or maybe she had just been 'let go' of a position and decided to get the information out to Opah....IDK...interesting though.

[grandmadugger]

I just wonder if Gothard, ATI and the Independent Baptists will eventually turn on the Duggars for exposing the groups' core tenets.

We talk about the adult kids walking away, there is a chance that they'll have no choice.

I've been watching for stuff from our local IFBs and nothing. Very odd because they usually are gushing over everything the Duggars do.

[silverspoons]

I thought Jim Bob picked the cop he brought Josh to because he knew him from the used car business.

[justoneoftwo]

I shared my opinion on this somewhere already, so sorry for repeating -

For what it's worth I was a social worker with primarily CPS related cases in a different state - state laws vary tremendously so this could be completely off - the mark.

In my state juvenile records are sealed when the minor reaches 18, however this is not an automatic process. The young adult has to file paperwork to get the record sealed. I would assume that the wording would be similar to any other court proceeding - with the young adult as a Plantiff suing the County ( or state ) . The court date would fit, with Josh's age, I think.

Generally it's just a formality.

Think of it like a divorce or child support court order - the wording is the same - with plaintiffs suing defendants.

Im not sure if there is a similar process for DHS, but I wouldn't be at all surprised - especially in this type of case where there was a police investigation. It would also explain why the state is pissed that the report was given to the press. It shouldn't have been, in any case, of course due to confidentiality for minors. But if there had already been a specific order to have it sealed - that would be particularly bad.

I'm surprised that people are focusing more on the police not doing anything , than on why CPS didn't follow through, in this type of situation it would typically become the responsibility of CPS to order treatment, etc. at least in my experience it is less common for the criminal court and juvenile justice system to be the primary players when it's a young teen. Unless CPS didn't find out until years later? I don't know, I'm confused by the timelines.

And thinking about it - even if the church elders were somehow not mandated reporters ( which makes no sense ) -- What about whoever ran the treatment program? Wouldn't they have been mandated reporters? Even if Josh was mostly working on the construction - wasn't there supposedly some sort of counseling?

And why would Michelle minimize the treatment part in the police interview - and now? You'd think she'd be talking that up . The whole thing is so strange.

As far as Jim Bob talking to the sleazy cop - it could have been just luck of the draw. Or he did , maybe through church , know this officer had sexual boundary issues - his goal in speaking to him might not have been to evade the law - but because he figured this guy would have the most insight.

Again, just my theory on the possible reason for the suit.

Often appeals from the administrative law judge will appear this way as well.

I do think its important to note, as you did, that the police report should not have been made public, even redacted (at least that is my understanding, i'm not a lawyer from Arkansas). It is not really unreasonable for the state or others to be wanting answers about how that happened, it is potentially a huge violation, even if its not in comparison with the content of the police report.

[Flyinthesoup]

The entire thing to me just screams of a politician knowing exactly who, how and when as he devised a plan of action. He was bold enough to leave a trail, because his ego is so large (see politician) he thought that he was above it all. I do not really believe that JB is religious at all. The kids beyond Josh are definetly brainwashed and believe all the Jesus talk, and maybe even Michelle too, but not JB. I also think Josh is a JB clone. They are both cunning opportunists. Hell, IMO, JB would admit to being a Gay, Muslim, transgendered, liberal Democrat, if he could make a few bucks off that admission.

Agreed! A politician may have had many reasons to hold onto a note of details. He may have thought he would give it a 'wait an see' approach to see if Josh was really repentant.....they were involved in another political race, not too long afterward, so not wanting to stir up trouble???? I think the covering up of who wrote it may well be politically motivated.....

Though it was mentioned that the politicians may not have been smart, the fact they held such offices gives one cause to pause on what they say and do, based on positions of authority and what they can do with that power.

If they can have you intimidated to get off their property because of photos...and sharing them....IDK, I am skeptical of the actions of JB and Mr. Holt.

One more thing...since the 'betrothal' was called off, perhaps Mr. Holt wanted to have the information for future problems/issues that might arise???

[skulduggery]

Josh is way too messed up a person for armchair analysts to do much with, maybe.

Great post, thank you for sharing that. I agree with the above as well, I think there's a lot we'll never understand about Josh or this family and I think there is some blessing in that.

I also want to say, I am open to all possibilities, but as I said in my original post I need substantial reason to believe something about someone. In forming my opinion about Josh, I added up everything that came out and the sum total doesn't support the claim that he's remorseful or somehow incapable of getting therapy as an adult. The only way I can form an opinion about Josh is to look at his behavior. We can sit and speculate, and that's intellectually stimulating but at the end of the day all I have to go by is him and his behavior. I'm not a mind reader nor am I a psychologist and there is a blessing in that as well. :wink-kitty:

Anyway, bachelorette is on so I'll be back in a bit!

[LongDogMom]

I think we're missing chunks of information here so we aren't looking at a complete picture. The letter/memo in the book story is weird. The story about the woman who contacted Oprah - but not the authorities or apparently even TLC is weird.

But the strangest thing for me is Jim Bob going to the state trooper who really, really enjoyed kiddie porn (56 years in prison!) for the "scared straight" lecture. Were he and Jim Bob such good friends that Jim Bob trusted him not to contact the local authorities? As mandatory reporters go, I would imagine cops are at the top of the list. Jim Bob apparently did not want this actually investigated, or he'd have made a report with the local cops, not a state trooper pal. What did he know about this guy? How could he have been so sure the guy wouldn't turn Josh in?

So many odd things about this whole story.

I read somewhere (can't find it now) that Jim Bob knew the trooper from real estate stuff. I'll keep looking and see if I can find where I saw it.

How is it that people know the age of the person who wrote to Oprah? That's weird.

It's strange the Duggars would not reveal the letter writer but said the knew who it was and later the police said they knew. Very odd. Seems protective, like they wanted to protect whoever it was.

[MamaCass]

I was a Juvenile Probation Officer in Alaska. We had many sex offenders under our jurisdiction, the youngest being around 11 years old. They were separated from families and placed in special housing units for treatment. In general, part of the treatment plan included group meetings about what triggered them to offend as well as individual counseling. In all but one case while I was there, Juvenile Justice took custody of the offender from the parents to ensure proper treatment was received as well as for the protection of the victims.

So I can't see Josh as being any kind of rehabilitated after reading the report. And I am baffled as to why he wasn't entered into the Juvenile Justice system.

[calimojo]

No, it is not a coincidence. I know some of us like to think JB is stupid, or some dumb yokel, but he is not. He is an extremely cunning, crafty man with no regard for anything other than money, power, and Michelle-in that order. Any action he took was in order to protect the viability of his political career. It was never about safeguarding or treating any of his children. Even the editing can't hide he finds most of his sons distasteful, and he has always taunted all of his kids. He knew that trooper would not report, and even worse he sent his son who was sexually acting out to be counseled by a pedophile.

Tune in to watch JB try to save his income stream this Wednesday.

I agree with this. I don't think JB is stupid either, as in has a low IQ. I do think he is uneducated and ignorant, but I also think he is cunning and clever

What is most obvious however, is that neither JB or M, have much insight nor do they seem to be able to think critically on an abstract level. JB does well with money because it is concrete.

I imagine that these traits were present long before Gothard entered their lives. In fact, I would venture a guess that one would have to have some specific traits to even get sucked into Gothardism. I could see a casual dabbler in fundamentalism checking it out, but anyone with insight and critical thought processes would not stick around for long.

[JenniferJuniper]

I read somewhere (can't find it now) that Jim Bob knew the trooper from real estate stuff. I'll keep looking and see if I can find where I saw it.

The guy had been a patrolman in Fayetteville before becoming the a state trooper. Jim Bob allegedly met him in his car lot or real estate dealings.

But that's not really the issue. The question is, why did Jim Bob trust this cop to break the law for him?

[Cleopatra7]

I agree with this. I don't think JB is stupid either, as in has a low IQ. I do think he is uneducated and ignorant, but I also think he is cunning and clever

What is most obvious however, is that neither JB or M, have much insight nor do they seem to be able to think critically on an abstract level. JB does well with money because it is concrete.

I imagine that these traits were present long before Gothard entered their lives. In fact, I would venture a guess that one would have to have some specific traits to even get sucked into Gothardism. I could see a casual dabbler in fundamentalism checking it out, but anyone with insight and critical thought processes would not stick around for long.

I think JB and Michelle were attracted to Gothardism because it provided a simplistic formula for success; follow Gothard's non-negotiable Biblical claptrap (or whatever he called them) and you get worldly success; do what Gothard says, and your kids don't rebel; having a "shining countenance" and you get a TV "ministry" and all the perks that entails; if your wife always submits, then you have a happy marriage. The message is obey, don't think, and the riches and blessings will roll in. Until recent, Gothard's rules for success seemed to be working for the Duggars. Given how simple their thought processes are, I can't imagine how JB and Michelle understand what is happening to them now. I don't even think they really get how angry people are with them. :disgust:

[justbecause]

In regard to the cop friend JB first reported to - is it possible he picked him because he knew of his past? I think I read in one article that he had been arrested or disciplined for child pornography and was only sent to prison after his second offense? Would that have been public? Would it have been possible that the police officer had confessed his sins in a church setting? Perhaps JB thought Josh was struggling with similar issues and this was why he chose him? Just a thought.

Has anyone checked that cops name and tried to find the churches he attended. Probably was from JB's church.

[justbecause]

IMO, in Josh's mind, Josh is still that 12 yo boy who is beholden to his daddy. Josh seeking help may have gotten out and affected daddy's cash cow, 19 kids and counting. I think the reason Josh might think this way is because JB still exerts pressure.

I think JB controls and shames all his kids. By bringing up long past incidents, he even shames Michelle.

I wouldn't doubt it to a certain degree, but then it seems like Josh is always taking what his dad can give him, so isn't that his fault in a way?

[meep]

Please forgive me if this has come up before, but I've been trying to keep up with threads and haven't seen it yet....

I've just read this: responsiblehomeschooling.org/crhe-statement-on-sex-offenders-and-homeschooling-in-the-wake-of-the-duggar-tragedy/

^^^^^^^^^^^^

Arkansas is one of two states that prohibits homeschooling in households that include registered sex offenders.

Well, that adds another layer to it. If Josh had been tried and convicted, the Duggars would have either had to find another place for Josh to live; or stop homeschooling altogether; or move.

[Nic]

I wouldn't doubt it to a certain degree, but then it seems like Josh is always taking what his dad can give him, so isn't that his fault in a way?

All the kids do. What other real choice to they have? Go against their parents and their whole belief system? But you can also argue that many parents pay for all or part of college, the next step into adulthood. These kids aren't doing that, so the Duggars are helping them with the next step.

JB can say he helped set up Josh with a used car lot. Everything else Josh did.

[bubblekitty]

I wonder if he's questioning anything now. He would have been exposed to a lot more people and ideas in D.C., even with the job he had. He did everything he was supposed to do---asked forgiveness and went to Gothard camp. So everything was fixed and perfect. Now his molestation of his sisters is national news, he lost his job, he's humiliated and it's mommy and daddy who are going out to do damage control.

What happened to God taking care of them? It must have seemed like God took care of it before. They became wealthy and famous and Josh got a job being the young face of "family values." They were being rewarded for being good Christians and loving God. Until now.

It's PERSECUTION. You know if you are super godly god rewards you with the big P. So they can rejoice even though everyone is being so mean and the money is drying up.

[16strong]

I thought Jim Bob picked the cop he brought Josh to because he knew him from the used car business.

If he knew Josh Hutchens (the cop) from the used car business, would there be any chance he invited him to prayer group, and Hutchens confessed to his sin of child porn there? I just get the feeling that Jim Bob somehow knew, and that's why he picked him.

[LongDogMom]

If he knew Josh Hutchens (the cop) from the used car business, would there be any chance he invited him to prayer group, and Hutchens confessed to his sin of child porn there? I just get the feeling that Jim Bob somehow knew, and that's why he picked him.

Yes, that was it, sorry. I knew it was something related to Jim Bob's business and couldn't remember if it was real estate of the used car lot.

"The police report explains that Duggar used to be a car salesman and Hutchens was the state trooper who did inspections of car dealerships."

I don't think Jim Bob knew about Hutchens and the porn. I think he just knew him as a cop and figured he'd get him to talk to josh and scare him straight with a good talking-to!

[JenniferJuniper]

I don't think Jim Bob knew about Hutchens and the porn. I think he just knew him as a cop and figured he'd get him to talk to josh and scare him straight with a good talking-to!

Hutchens had a legal duty to report the molestation. He didn't.

Why did Jim Bob take a chance with this cop since he clearly didn't want Josh turned in?

[justbecause]

I was a Juvenile Probation Officer in Alaska. We had many sex offenders under our jurisdiction, the youngest being around 11 years old. They were separated from families and placed in special housing units for treatment. In general, part of the treatment plan included group meetings about what triggered them to offend as well as individual counseling. In all but one case while I was there, Juvenile Justice took custody of the offender from the parents to ensure proper treatment was received as well as for the protection of the victims.

So I can't see Josh as being any kind of rehabilitated after reading the report. And I am baffled as to why he wasn't entered into the Juvenile Justice system.

I bet it had something to do with politics. JB had friends in high places, evidently the fundies

stick together. I mean Huckabee stood up for Josh. It's all wierd.

[Mela99]

Do you guys think it would be better or worse if Smuggar was the one to sit the interview?

I wonder if he's waiting to see how his parents do before he says or does anything . . .

[Nic]

Hutchens had a legal duty to report the molestation. He didn't.

Why did Jim Bob take a chance with this cop since he clearly didn't want Josh turned in?

Bc the elders told him to report it to cops after Joshie rec'd treatment. Isn't it better to go to someone you know and explain that Josh did this to his sisters, he rec'd treatment everything A-OK again so far, but coming to you for help OR try that walking into Springdale PD and asking for staff sergeant or whomever.