Josh Duggar, Admitted Child Molester - Part 8

[halcionne]

On a slightly different note:

the place Josh was sent to from march to july. Is the consensus he was just hanging out with a family friend doing construction? Is it possible he was sent for "retraining/reprogramming" at a gothard style center? If you read some of the posts from recovering grace, those places could be really awful. Like the accounts of the LIT program and being locked in prayer rooms for days on end. Is it possible he actually spent a few months in heavy labor/intensive "regothardizing" camp? The abuses at those places are atrocious.

I in no way defend Josh or his actions. But it's clear to me he was raised in an abusive home/cult and that horrible things happened to them growing up. I'm just curious if his headshaving/public shaming at church was the end of it, or if when he was sent away further abuses occurred.

He absolutely went to a Gothard program; JB&M downplayed it in the police report, but what little they did say was enough to match it to this: http://web.archive.org/web/200505272214 ... struction/

[Mama Mia]

Nic posted this link in the last thread -

patheos.com/blogs/danthropology/2015/05/jim-bob-duggar-may-have-covered-up-his-sons-crimes-to-continue-homeschooling/?ref_widget=related&ref_blog=danthropology&ref_post=a-response-to-salons-plea-to-stop-writing-god-with-a-lower-case-g

This is mighty interesting. The core of the article -

Homeschooling laws in Arkansas, the state the Duggar family resides, would have forbidden the Duggars from homeschooling their children if Jim Bob or Michelle Duggar had reported their son Josh Duggar’s crimes of sexual assault.

The homeschool law, No. 1787 of 2001, passed just one year before Josh’s crimes began reads as such:

6-15-508. Home schooling prohibited if a sex offender resides in the home.

(a) No child may be home schooled if any person residing in the home with the child is required to register under the Sex and Child Offender Registration Act of 1997, § 12-12-901 et seq.

(b) Upon petition to the sentencing court from the child’s parent or guardian, the sentencing court may enter a written order specifically waiving the restriction in subsection (a) of this section.

© This section shall not apply if the child to be home schooled is the person registered under the Sex and Child Offender Registration Act of 1997, § 12-12-901 et seq.

HISTORY: Acts 2001, No. 1787, § 1

This means had Jim Bob actually reported the assaults instead of only telling a friend –an Arkansas State Trooper who failed to report the crimes– then Josh would have either have needed to have been kicked out of the house or the family would have to stop homeschooling and send their children to either a public or private school.

I think that would depend on several things though. Mostly whether the molestation led to criminal charges, or was handled solely through Child Welfare. I think this is one of those situations where people assume that child welfare and criminal law are the same.

This is just information based on fairly limited experience in a different state - so take with a bucket of salt.

When I was a social worker I had a few families in fairly similar situations ( not fundamentalist related though ) . Teen boys who had molested younger siblings . CPS got involved. The teen had to live seperately from siblings for a period of time, and were placed in various treatment programs. But in only one case, with an older teen, was the boy actually tried in criminal court and required to register as a sex offender. In the other cases - boys around Josh's age - everything was handled through family court. In most cases the boy was eventually allowed to return home - after treatment and everyone in the family received therapy and complied with various recommendations for safety. They were not required to register as sex offenders.

[Flyinthesoup]

Failing to report known abuse, especially when the perpetrator admits to the abuse, has legal consequences. Law in Arkansas states that mandated reporters who knowingly, recklessly, and purposely fail to make a report have committed a Class A or C felony. Additionally, they can and should be held civilly liable. The statute of limitations should have never been so modest for a crime committed against children. Furthermore, the current statute states that prosecution can proceed even if the limitations have expired only if the offense was never reported to a law enforcement officer. So if a police officer does not fulfill his or her duty to respond appropriately within the allotted time, there is no justice for the victims. This has to change.

The message to the victims, and to girls everywhere, is clear: You are not protected. Telling authorities what happened to you will neither protect you from its happening again nor bring your assailant to justice; men and boys are more valued and you should defer to what is best for them; blame yourself and do it silently"

Thank you for that information on Arkansas law.

If this letter is an account of sorts, written by an elder in the church, or an adult, I think this person should be made public.

[Mom23]

If the letter writer is a "he" and in the previous story mentioned from Gawker, the person who went to church with the duggars called it a "confession letter", maybe it was Josh who wrote the letter. I'm a Christian, an it's not uncommon to write to or journal your thoughts or things you want to be forgiven of. Or maybe it was part of his punishment? Writing down all of his sins? Then it was stuck in a book and forgotten about.

Or, could it be written down like minutes from the elders meeting about it? My granfather goes to a very old school church and they still take minutes of their meetings.

Sorry if it's already been decided he's not the letter writer.

First time poster. I've been trying hard to keep up...there's a lot of information here!

[Flyinthesoup]

A couple more thoughts/observations before I have to leave this discussion for a few hours.

First, after re-reading "Alice's" report, I noticed she only referred to Josh's sisters as having been molested, no other 'victim'. I find that odd that the 5th...outside the family victim...was not mentioned.

"Alice" has a great deal of 'detailed' information, if she is to be believed, and at this stage, I do believe her. She is an 'older wiser' woman, but to what age, I do not know. She also mentions about the Duggars having to be in court in "April of '07".

According to "concernedmom's" statement, it doesn't appear that who Josh was betrothed to, and the girl who's outside the family (victim 5,) are one in the same, unless she intentionally tried to throw off the readers from that trail. If that's the case, according to her account, the 'sin in the camp' appears to have happened with the 2006 campaign, which would be 3 years after Josh got back from his 'treatment' program. It's possible concernedmom made a mistake in how she wrote that out...or I am misinterpreting her words.....

Here is the posting on "Alice" and "Concernedmom" from the forum: viewtopic.php?f=87&t=713&p=13658&hilit=concernedmom#p13658

[quiverofdoubt]

He absolutely went to a Gothard program; JB&M downplayed it in the police report, but what little they did say was enough to match it to this: http://web.archive.org/web/200505272214 ... struction/

Thanks, I checked this out before but didn't look too hard. I'm guessing they wouldn't put anything about prayer rooms or use the terms programming or anything like it on the website. It also says you have to be 18 to go. Maybe that's new, or they skirt the rules in special cases.

And thanks to your link I have now fallen down the rabbit hole and wound up on the Gothard (wayback machine) website. :penguin-no: :wtf: :cray-cray: :ew: I need to get off, I want to throw up or scream or something!

[quiverofdoubt]

From the Gothard Webpage on courtship:

"3. Honor parents

The foundational command for the happiness and success of any marriage is “Honour thy father and thy mother†(Exodus 20:12). God emphasized the seriousness of this command by giving the following penalty for breaking it: “For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him†(Leviticus 20:9)."

We know how literalist these people are. The Duggar children were brought up to believe that any questioning or percieved lack of honor, towards your parents, could bring death upon themselves as punishment. This might begin to explain why the older children are still part of the cult and none of the kids have questioned or pulled away. This teaching as well as many others....

(website link: web.archive.org/web/20050210050145/http://billgothard.com/bill/topics/courtship/) - via wayback machine

[dawn]

Concernedmom wrote her account in April 2005 so she couldn't have been talking about 2006. The "sin in the camp" must have happened during Jim Holt's Senate run in 2004.

I don't know if this helps, but this is the timeline I've worked in my head:

viewtopic.php?f=87&t=26189&p=956564#p956564

[Buzzard]

Nic posted this link in the last thread -

patheos.com/blogs/danthropology/2015/05/jim-bob-duggar-may-have-covered-up-his-sons-crimes-to-continue-homeschooling/?ref_widget=related&ref_blog=danthropology&ref_post=a-response-to-salons-plea-to-stop-writing-god-with-a-lower-case-g

This is mighty interesting. The core of the article -

Homeschooling laws in Arkansas, the state the Duggar family resides, would have forbidden the Duggars from homeschooling their children if Jim Bob or Michelle Duggar had reported their son Josh Duggar’s crimes of sexual assault.

The homeschool law, No. 1787 of 2001, passed just one year before Josh’s crimes began reads as such:

6-15-508. Home schooling prohibited if a sex offender resides in the home.

(a) No child may be home schooled if any person residing in the home with the child is required to register under the Sex and Child Offender Registration Act of 1997, § 12-12-901 et seq.

(b) Upon petition to the sentencing court from the child’s parent or guardian, the sentencing court may enter a written order specifically waiving the restriction in subsection (a) of this section.

© This section shall not apply if the child to be home schooled is the person registered under the Sex and Child Offender Registration Act of 1997, § 12-12-901 et seq.

HISTORY: Acts 2001, No. 1787, § 1

This means had Jim Bob actually reported the assaults instead of only telling a friend –an Arkansas State Trooper who failed to report the crimes– then Josh would have either have needed to have been kicked out of the house or the family would have to stop homeschooling and send their children to either a public or private school.

My reading of 12-12-901 is that the list of crimes that would trigger registering is the same list that tolls the SOL. I dont think that he would have had to register back then.

[alba]

On a slightly different note:

the place Josh was sent to from march to july. Is the consensus he was just hanging out with a family friend doing construction? Is it possible he was sent for "retraining/reprogramming" at a gothard style center? If you read some of the posts from recovering grace, those places could be really awful. Like the accounts of the LIT program and being locked in prayer rooms for days on end. Is it possible he actually spent a few months in heavy labor/intensive "regothardizing" camp? The abuses at those places are atrocious.

I in no way defend Josh or his actions. But it's clear to me he was raised in an abusive home/cult and that horrible things happened to them growing up. I'm just curious if his headshaving/public shaming at church was the end of it, or if when he was sent away further abuses occurred.

fakejoshduggar.wordpress.com/2015/05/28/a-closer-look-at-the-timeline-of-events/

According to this, Gothard acquired a building in Little Rock in 2000 that he began refurbishing for use as the Little Rock Training Centre, for ' "court-referred youth offenders in the organization's Bible-based rehabilitation program" '. Add to that that Michelle said they sent him to do construction with someone they knew in Little Rock, and it seems likely their acquaintance was Gothard and the construction was refurbishing this building.

[1st wiccan fundie]

This mega merged forum thread is moving too fast to keep up with, follow and too many subtopics under the general topic....so sorry if this was covered. Or out of place.

That being said....

I'm surprised that David Waller has been silent on the molestation situation so far. Or that he hasn't spoken for Pricella . Or that he hasn't helped her release a video with her speaking nonsense that should be related to the Josh issue yet, in her typical manner, isn't really saying anything at all. They still have Duggar pics up on their creepy site. The pecan thief doesn't strike me as a person who can keep quiet on anything. Especially since he's so insistent that he spread God's word and minster the masses with his misery. And he's just such a creep. I mean I know they all can't think for themselves or anything and must repeat the same exact poison, word for word that was forced on to them since blanket training but, he especially seems like he will have to speak up.

We've had enough with unfounded speculation, I know but Pricella has worked for Gothard and all his many offshoots of organizations very closely. As did David. Whatever they'll ever speak of or not these 2 have had a lot more experience with the inside workings of this shit. What they know, experienced and how they feel about it due to their brainwashing are 2 different things.

[halcionne]

This mega merged forum thread is moving too fast to keep up with, follow and too many subtopics under the general topic....so sorry if this was covered. Or out of place.

That being said....

I'm surprised that David Waller has been silent on the molestation situation so far. Or that he hasn't spoken for Pricella . Or that he hasn't helped her release a video with her speaking nonsense that should be related to the Josh issue yet, in her typical manner, isn't really saying anything at all. They still have Duggar pics up on their creepy site. The pecan thief doesn't strike me as a person who can keep quiet on anything. Especially since he's so insistent that he spread God's word and minster the masses with his misery. And he's just such a creep. I mean I know they all can't think for themselves or anything and must repeat the same exact poison, word for word that was forced on to them since blanket training but, he especially seems like he will have to speak up.

We've had enough with unfounded speculation, I know but Pricella has worked for Gothard and all his many offshoots of organizations very closely. As did David. Whatever they'll ever speak of or not these 2 have had a lot more experience with the inside workings of this shit. What they know, experienced and how they feel about it due to their brainwashing are 2 different things.

Pecan still works for ATI and is maybe waiting for things to quiet down before carrying on as before.

[Furbabies]

The question would be, why would JB not identify the person who wrote or found the letter?

Wouldn't the person who wrote the letter be questioned? If so, is there a record of that?

The person who wrote it gave an account of what took place...so perhaps there are more details in there JB doesn't want anyone to know, or not...maybe only some of the information was found in that letter, not all of what has been disclosed is in that letter.

The person who wrote it might be a high profile politician, maybe? Or, perhaps more than a family friend, a family member as suggested above?

Obviously the person who found the letter must want to remain anonymous, since JB obviously knows who it is....so I should stop speculating on that one. ;)

Maybe that was why John David was questioned by the police as a "witness"? Maybe JB called him a "family friend" to keep the police away from JD? :think:

Inv. Taylor stated that she had found out who had written the letter that started this investigation. She said she talked to [Letter Finder] and found that [John-David] was the person who wrote the letter. [John-David] was the person that [Josh] was supposed to have [shared a room] with until the allegations started.

ETA: filling in the redactions to make it fit my theory.

[justbecause]

He absolutely went to a Gothard program; JB&M downplayed it in the police report, but what little they did say was enough to match it to this: http://web.archive.org/web/200505272214 ... struction/

The only thing is that it says that you have to be 18 years old, unless they made an exception.

[church_of_dog]

I think it may have been a book they used as reference during a family meeting about the letter, and it was just forgotten about.

That's a possiblity I hadn't thought of. As is the idea that perhaps the letter was written and then sent/delivered -- TO the Duggars? As you say, they might have had a family meeting discussing it, then it got stuck in the book and forgotten about. That actually seems quite plausible to me.

[SassyPants]

All I have to add right now is that the damned FBI ain't got nothing on FJ.

If it's out there, FJers will find it and analyze the crap out of it. I feel like such an 'insider' being a part of this site, lol. My husband is all like, "I saw online that such-and-such happened!" And I'm rolling my eyes like, "Duh. That was discussed and debunked by FJ like a week ago." lolz

Unfortunately, the very down side to this is that we (general and collective) can think that the Duggars are going down because surely everyone in the world sees them as frauds, but most still know very little about Gothard and all the perversion of this cult.

[vienna]

Since this really isn't just about the molestation per se, but about various tales of people who had an experience with the Duggars, including an alleged crew member from TLC, I wasn't sure where to put this. While I know these may be unfounded rumours, they certainly sound very plausible. Gawker has posted some stories from people who either encountered the Duggars somewhere (ie: a waitress at a restaurant serving them), worked with them, know someone who did, or in one case a girl who says she belonged to the same church as the Duggars around the time that Josh was sent away and what the people at the Church were saying. I don't know if these are true or not, but I found them interesting, especially the one that is from the girl who belonged to the same church. But again... I have no proof so take with a grain of salt:

From http://defamer.gawker.com/jim-bobs-puni ... 1707675683

Here's a couple I found interesting though...

"here’s a note from someone who says they attended church with the Duggars when Josh was a teenager.

...When I spoke with Josh as a teen, I was struck by the person I saw beneath the obnoxiously outspoken persona that he parades around with. He was fiercely intelligent, weak, hurt, ambitious, and sincere. He also had tight control over his image for a teen—likely a result of living in the limelight for years. ...Nobody told me that he was guilty of sexual molestation. I do remember that he was caught for pornography and being sent away for rehabilitation when he was 17 or so. If people look back to when Josh was bald on the show, it was because he was being “rehabilitatedâ€. The head-shaving was part of the shaming process. I remember thinking that everyone was overreacting. When Josh returned from his “porn rehabâ€, he was brought before the church. After Josh gave his “testimonyâ€, his sisters came up and hugged him and I remember seeing huge, confused tears streaming down their faces. I remember being confused about why they seemed to take it so personally.Now it makes more sense.

When the confession letter was found in the book and the Oprah incident happened, I remember there being a lot of panic in the camp. Being a teen, I wasn’t told the details. A friend of mine told me that he thought he overheard Josh had touched a girl inappropriately. We thought that maybe it was a weird consensual teen fling at a family camp event or something. When there were rumors of lawyers and police, I started thinking that something more serious was going on. I began to feel weird about the whole family and started drifting away from that circle as I got older. Years later I found the postings in the online forums about Josh and his sisters and heard that he was heading up the FRC. And I also learned how much money and power the Duggars were accumulating from the show. The whole thing made me sick. It was out of control. ..."

And this kind of ties in with the above and was supposedly told to someone whose cousin's husband (yeah I know) worked on the TLC production crew... "My cousins husband used to work at the Duggar production as well. He has many, many, stories about this family, but one that particularly strikes me as terrible is when one of the older Duggar Boys was caught playing with himself. He said that one of his brothers had told on him for being in the bathroom for a few hours one night, worried that he was sick. Well to see if he really was, Jim Bob walked in. He caught him doing it, and on one of the day’s the cameras were filming. Jim bobs screams made the crew run to where they were filming. Immediately they asked him what was wrong. All Jim Could reply was “idle hands are the devils playthings.†Apparently, the whole next day he was supposed to do chores around the house. But, Jim Bob had tied his hands together so that doing anything was nearly impossible. ..."

And the other one that I found interesting doesn't have to do with Josh, but rather it made me think of how celebrities bring their nannies along to take care of their kids, except with the Duggars it would be an older daughter...that struck me the most about this story even though the main gist of it was JimBob didn't like ordering from a female server ???

"I worked at a pseudo fancy Italian chain that the Duggar family likes to frequent and waited on them many times. Sometimes the whole family, sometimes Cousin Amy and her mother were along, sometimes just the boys came in.

One time it was just the parents, the eldest girl and the youngest (at the time) baby. They were with another man and he and Jim Bob were talking about taking another run for office. Michelle was sitting quietly, while the older daughter took complete care of the infant as if it was her own.

Each time I waited on them, the children were all, including Josh, very polite and caused no problems. However Jim Bob never once talked to me. He would give me a nasty look, then tell Michelle what he would like to eat. She would then relay his order, which I had just heard, to me. I checked with other servers, and the females all were treated the same way by Jim Bob. He would give his order to male servers himself. He is also a horrendous tipper, averaging around 5 percent after asking to have the gratuity removed from his bill."

Thank you very much for These interesting informations

[halcionne]

The only thing is that it says that you have to be 18 years old, unless they made an exception.

That page was the oldest one in the archive, but it doesn't go back far enough to match up with Josh's time there. And the program no longer exists; maybe they realized there were too many liability risks.

[JenniferJuniper]

I think we're missing chunks of information here so we aren't looking at a complete picture.

The letter/memo in the book story is weird. The story about the woman who contacted Oprah - but not the authorities or apparently even TLC is weird.

But the strangest thing for me is Jim Bob going to the state trooper who really, really enjoyed kiddie porn (56 years in prison!) for the "scared straight" lecture. Were he and Jim Bob such good friends that Jim Bob trusted him not to contact the local authorities? As mandatory reporters go, I would imagine cops are at the top of the list. Jim Bob apparently did not want this actually investigated, or he'd have made a report with the local cops, not a state trooper pal. What did he know about this guy? How could he have been so sure the guy wouldn't turn Josh in?

So many odd things about this whole story.

[SassyPants]

I think we're missing chunks of information here so we aren't looking at a complete picture.

The letter/memo in the book story is weird. The story about the woman who contacted Oprah - but not the authorities or apparently even TLC is weird.

But the strangest thing for me is Jim Bob going to the state trooper who really, really enjoyed kiddie porn (56 years in prison!) for the "scared straight" lecture. Were he and Jim Bob such good friends that Jim Bob trusted him not to contact the local authorities? As mandatory reporters go, I would imagine cops are at the top of the list. Jim Bob apparently did not want this actually investigated, or he'd have made a report with the local cops, not a state trooper pal. What did he know about this guy? How could he have been so sure the guy wouldn't turn Josh in?

So many odd things about this whole story.

The entire thing to me just screams of a politician knowing exactly who, how and when as he devised a plan of action. He was bold enough to leave a trail, because his ego is so large (see politician) he thought that he was above it all. I do not really believe that JB is religious at all. The kids beyond Josh are definetly brainwashed and believe all the Jesus talk, and maybe even Michelle too, but not JB. I also think Josh is a JB clone. They are both cunning opportunists. Hell, IMO, JB would admit to being a Gay, Muslim, transgendered, liberal Democrat, if he could make a few bucks off that admission.

[Hera]

I'm still trying to figure out how you manage to write a letter/take notes regarding the molestation of 5 young girls by a 14-year old (4 of whom were his sisters) and then just...leave it randomly in a book and forget about it. You'd think that would be something important that you'd keep track of, unless this is so common that it's just a regular occurrence for these folks. How bizarre.

And, imagine being the person who borrowed the book and opening it up and finding that letter inside. There's a WTF moment for ya.

[Gobsmacked]

David waller maybe saying nothing as Joshies job is now vacant! :shifty-kitty:

Pure speculation of course :D

[Four is Enough]

OK.. the reasons people stick things in books.

As bookmarks. Photos, bills (!) and letters are excellent bookmarks.

For safekeeping. Flowers to be pressed, photos again, even money, sometimes.

For safekeeping while it's decided what to do with it.... THIS is MY theory.

Someone in the house wrote that letter, and then shelved it (literally) while deciding what to to with it in actuality. Perhaps Josh did some public repentance and they thought it was all over; perhaps they thought he should get another chance, perhaps they forgot about it, either way, the letter remained in place.

On a total aside: Today, I asked my son who went through treatment for sex offenders if all this Josh Duggar stuff in the news caused him any triggering of bad feelings, flash-backs, or anything else. His response was that he felt sorry for Josh because it just seemed that he didn't have really good therapy to help him get past his problem. He said, "even if you're a celebrity, you deserve the chance to have therapy like I did."

[SassyPants]

I just wonder if Gothard, ATI and the Independent Baptists will eventually turn on the Duggars for exposing the groups' core tenets.

We talk about the adult kids walking away, there is a chance that they'll have no choice.

[skulduggery]

I don't remember seeing this link posted, so I'll go ahead and post it:

sheknows.com/entertainment/articles/1084834/proof-the-duggars-are-not-the-people-they-pretend-to-be

"The View" has chimed in on the upcoming interview.

mediaite.com/tv/the-view-praises-foxs-megyn-kelly-as-duggar-interview-choice-shes-tough/

Nice Wallace said:

“I think it’s smart that they are going to Megyn Kelly, and they’re fools if they think that Megyn Kelly’s going to go easy on them. Megyn Kelly is tough and she’s proven herself to put journalism ahead of any sort of politics.â€

I want to believe this. I really do. I'm a cynic, though, and I think if Megyn is hard on them it's only because she wants to distance them from Faux Newz and their political agenda. No matter what happens, though, I'm probably going to be glaring at it with a jaundiced side-eye. I admit it. So my initial assumption about this story could be wrong, but Faux Newz lack of reporting about Josh and their predilection to spin anything to their favor still makes me wonder if this is going to be a turd polishing interview.