Josh Duggar Admits to Molestation Rumors - Part 4

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

Yes, there is a double.standard and I clearly outlined why.

You claiming the other boys would do it too if it were upbringing is nonsense. Everyone reacts differently to stimuli. Just because only one child does something and the siblings don't doesn't mean his environment wasn't a contributing factor.

I also never claimed his impulses or psychological problem was a result of upbringing. I said his response to it was a result. Those two things are vastly different.

And no matter what anyone says if twenty something year old molestation victims CHOOSE to say they forgive and still associate with their abuser then it is hypocritical for people to claim they are victims of their childhood but their 14 year old abuser wasn't a victim of the exact same childhood.

I'm sorry, but in what would could the girls have made the CHOICE to forgive their brother? In what world have they been allowed the ability to seek the kind of long term professional help that will allow them to not only come to terms with their sexual abuse, but come to terms with how their parents reacted and how their parents conditioned them for this? And, I'm sorry, but there is nothing in how these girls act around their brother that says "oh I forgave him, everything is cool."

No. These girls have not chosen to forgive him. These girls have been told to forgive him. Their choices were dictated by their parents and their church community. Their lives were also limited to their family and their church community. Remember, none of the unmarried family members are allowed to even go out of the house without an accountability partner.

And before you say that the married girls have no choice but to seek help if they need it, how would they do that. ASSUMING their indoctrination failed and they don't blame themselves for Josh's behaviors, who do they turn to? Their entire life has been spent teaching them that worldly people will be like wolves in sheep's clothing, telling them how evil their family/church is and trying to lead them astray and into the arms of the devil. They teach that being out from "under the umbrella of protection" allows you and your family members to be hurt.

Jill MIGHT be lucky that she could turn to her in laws. IF she can even reconcile the idea of telling them. Jessa probably doesn't have that luxury, as evidenced by Guinn's post. So, even within their circles, Jill and Jessa might not be able to escape.

But, no matter what, it doesn't change the fact that you're an abuse apologizer. You're making excuses for him and trying to take away sympathy/empathy from the girls. You're painting him as a victim as if it makes his crimes acceptable, and you're painting the girls as non-victims in order to do it.

That's unacceptable.

It's one thing to say "Josh didn't grow up in a family that allowed him the resources he needed early enough to help prevent making more of his sisters victims" and a different thing to say "well it's not his fault his parents sexually repressed him."

There are sexually repressed people all over this world who DO NOT sexually abuse. And there are sexually active and liberated people all over this world who DO sexually abuse. And why is this? Because abuse is NOT about sex. Abuse is NOT being horny and needing an outlet. Abuse is control. Abuse is power. Abuse is a sense of entitlement to someone else and their life/livelihood.

There. Is. No. Double. Standard.

[zadie]

Hi, long time lurker here, newly registered.

I've read most of the threads and have a few questions/comments.

1. Did anyone else notice that the first Duggar child interviewed said that they weren't allowed to be touched "anywhere between [her] neck and [her] feet"? That is very different to what all of the other children said. My hunch is that either she wasn't coached (and the others were) or that for some reason this child was taught differently to the other girls. I know they are fundies but that seems excessive and strange.

2. There was some discussion upthread about the child who was asked about the male and female genitalia (and called them both pee-pee holders), my feeling from reading it that the child was a male and so the investigator asked him to name male specific body parts as well as female. Two of the J-boys would have been 5 & 7 so plenty young enough (when you factor for a sheltered(ish) environment) to still be using phrases like "pee-pee holder".

The investigator will have been checking that they had not been molested too, looking at their ages it seems they spoke to almost all of the Duggar kids who were old enough to talk except for josh (maybe short of 1?).

3. Not necessarily related but s omeone posted a picture of the Duggars circa 2002. Did it look to anyone else that one of the older two girl's hair (on the right of the shot, probably Jana) was oddly short for a fundie? Looks almost like a pixie cut.

4. Most importantly, my heart goes out to those girls. However unlikely it might be I'm hoping against hope that they escape.

I haven't caught up so sorry if anyone has said this.

Since it was the oldest Duggar girl, she probably knew that he was talking about sexually. Some of the younger ones mentioned things like hugs and stuff. But Jana knew he meant sexually, and she's right. Sexual touches aren't supposed to happen anywhere. Look at how they react to hand holding.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

Does anyone else feel the need to do *something*? Not even directly tied to the Duggars in particular, but something...I hate to say "positive" but I'm not sure what I'm trying to say. I mean this is one example of things that happen to people every day, even people we know, or in our families. This whole situation just makes me think, what can I and people who feel the same do? What are things to be done? Nothing can really make this "better" but can people do good things in response? Ugh, I don't know what I'm trying to say. I feel like I'm coming off as insensitive, but this whole thing has just had me thinking nonstop. I can't personally help the Duggar girls, but does that mean no one can do anything?

I know exactly how you feel. I rather wish I had proof that there was something current going on in the family that would allow for Michelle and JB to be removed from their kids. I wish I could convince the older girls to at least move out of the house and attend a 2 year institution so they don't have to rely on their parents. I wish I could convince the older boys the same thing. I wish I could provide all the children in that house with positive social interactions that don't revolve around protecting the world view their parents raised them with. I wish I could send Jinger to photography camps that allow her to experience life at the same time as growing her skills -- something like one of the National Geographic photography tours. I wish I could get all the people in that family real, licensed counseling. I wish I could help the older children not feel like the younger children are their responsibility. I want to adopt all the younger children and give them a better life and a better education (though I've always wanted to do that, the want is stronger now).

[BekahJ]

Well. Today is a bad day to know how to read. :angry-banghead:

You know, I was actually somewhat pleasantly surprised by this. Some of it was still disgusting, ("They are to be praised for not hiding this from the appropriate parties and eventually the police" - Yeah ok pedo-cop is a great way to handle this... and all the talk about how not sheltering would have made this worse and not better...) but I was pleasantly surprised to see that he did acknowledge the survivors and stated that he was in no way addressing the criminal aspect of all of this. Furthermore, this seems like the first Fundie I've seen to actually address this in a way that is consistent with what they state their beliefs are. Most people (Zsu aside) have basically been like "forgive and forget because he's a christian, whatever!" I noticed this in particular.

"I want to say to Josh, hang in there, the shame you feel is legitimate, yet Jesus took your shame as he was punished in your place. Rest in his forgiveness and grace. Remember that he gives you his righteousness as a covering for your shame. Let this trial in your life build humility and grace. Don’t be angry at the world for their hatred of you."

Right or wrong, that's at least biblical.

He also encourages survivors of sexual abuse to come forward - something we haven't seen anyone else in this community do. Is any of this how I would have handled it? NOPE- I'd be getting my DIL as far away from all this as she was comfortable with. But it seems like a somewhat level headed response in comparison to the other things we've seen.

Now Guinn sharing Mike Huckabee's post on the other hand? :wtf: :angry-banghead:

[amyjoyharrison]

Sorry if it's already been posted but FINALLY we have Zsu's take...

stevenandersonfamily.blogspot.ca/2015/05/my-thoughts-on-duggars.html#more

[treemom]

wow I thought TN would have some of the worst

Why? You think those who live in Tennessee are like totally cool with molesting your sister?

[ILoveJellybeans]

I wonder if they have even read the police report and thought about who the redacted names belong to :( How can they not be absolutely furious at Josh for it :(

Im crying over it, and I don't even know them.

[BekahJ]

I wonder if they have even read the police report and thought about who the redacted names belong to :( How can they not be absolutely furious at Josh for it :(

Im crying over it, and I don't even know them.

I don't have any doubt that they know exactly who the redacted names belong to. I don't think he would have posted had they not.

Unfortunately, this is the best case scenario for someone indoctrinated IMO. "We're praying for the victims, We're praying for the family, this never should have happened, come forward if you're being abused, you should feel bad Josh- but Jesus Saves." To say anything more than that would risk cutting him off from his in laws, his church, and potentially his own son. Again- not how I would have responded AT ALL, but I really think this is one of the better responses that we've seen.

[Analytica49]

I'm doing my best to keep up with this thread, but living my life seems to get in the way! I hope the following ideas have not already been posted--I don't think so.

First, Jim-Booby and J'Uterus of course think that God is always communicating with them and helping them. So I wonder what they thought when the Dairy Queen had that string of SIX boys. Did they interpret it as God saying, "I will go on giving you children, but until I am sure the sin in your house is cleared up, I will not give you a girl." I mean, SIX boys in a row--that's got to seemed weird to parents who, until that point, had an almost equal mix of what they persist in calling "genders". So, when Johannah was born, I wouldn't be surprised if they saw it as a sign from God that all was tickety-boo, the sin cleared up, and J'chelle's uterus approved to delivery more girls. And sure enough, more girls arrived. So they must have thought they had completely survived the whole Josh-problem, and there would no more trouble.

Second thought is in regard to speculation about who the victims were. I know there is reason to think that somehow Jana was spared. But, given what we have seen of the girls' personalities, I regard it as more likely that Jana was one of the victims, and Jill was not. Jill discovered it, reported it to the parents, and has been regarded as a "tattle-tale" ever since.

[usmcmom]

I'm very uncomfortable with any statement that begins with "he was only 14 years old...." as a way to minimize Josh's crime. I would certainly take that view if his "apology" were more sincere and full of compassion for his victims. If he'd seemed even slightly remorseful for his actions, perhaps I could chalk it up to his age or his upbringing. But it's the apology that gets me. In it, he is more concerned for himself than his victims. He is more concerned for the ramifications for him than the torment with which his sisters have lived.

We all get to look back on our youthful behaviors with adult eyes. The fact that he STILL does not see his behavior as criminal and despicable speaks volumes to me. His crime, to me, has less to do with his upbringing and his age at the time of the crime and more to do with his mental makeup. I think he is just simply a VERY BAD PERSON who likely would be diagnosed as narcissistic, psychopathic and/or sociopathic along with being a pedophile. Sometimes there is no discernable reason for this kind of behavior, in my opinion. I really believe that some people are just evil and cannot be fixed. I believe Josh is one of those people and there are probably many more victims out there.

Jim Bob and Michelle are despicable human beings for allowing him continued access to his sisters. I think I just said this last night, but I still cannot comprehend how they taught their daughters to fear the men of the world, while knowing the greatest danger to them was sleeping under the same roof.

[nelliebelle1197]

I know, Treemom, I know.

[nastyhobbitses]

Do you think this scandal is going to be bigger than Jim Bakker/PTL was back in the day? I think the **** hasn't even hit the fan yet.

I think it's going to gain a lot of traction because there are so many people who would say things like "Oh, I wish I could have a family like the Duggars" who are going to see this and be shocked. I think it's also going to expose not only more skeletons in the Duggars' closet, but get the media to finally pay more attention to the sexual abuses Bill Gothard, their religious leader, committed (abuses I hope the Duggar girls were spared, especially now).

Really, I just feel terrible for every single person in this scandal. Terrible for the Duggar girls, who have been living with a sexual predator since they were little girls and likely never had the chance to heal or be free from him, and have been raised since birth with a doctrine that teaches them that showing their knees or shoulders will "defraud" even their brothers, effectively making them believe that they caused this. Terrible for Josh, who was raised in an environment that taught him that women are property and was simultaneously hypersexual and unwilling to teach him healthy attitudes about sexuality, and that what he did was a "mistake" and not an unspeakable crime. Terrible for Josh's family, who must be humiliated and have now lost their only two sources of income with three small children a baby on the way. Terrible for Jill and Jessa for the same reason, but worse: they've been living with this horrible secret for twelve years, the media is very likely not going to give them the dignity and privacy they are entitled to, and now the TLC gravy train is gone when they desperately need money for their growing families, hopefully with men who respect and cherish them far more than their birth families. Terrible for Josh's school-aged and younger siblings, whom I hope to God he didn't touch, who now have to be associated with "that family with the pervert older brother".

But whom I don't feel bad for are Jim Bob and Michelle. They taught their son that sex on demand is normal, that sex is a simultaneously a blessing and a forbidden, dirty thing, and that even two-year-old girls can sexually tempt men. They sexualized their young daughters and taught them that they deserve unwanted sexual advances if they don't dress modestly, and continued to promote this rhetoric after their daughters were victimized by their own brother. They treated a case of child sexual abuse and incest as a "sin" and not a crime that is only indicative of a deep psychological problem that will not just "go away". They let this happen. They then profited off books written ten years after their children were sexually assaulted about how they teach that children need to dress modestly to avoid "tempting" men. They profited off the exploitation of their children for ten years. They promote these unhealthy ideas about sexuality to the general public and don't seem to want to admit that they were wrong when the evidence against their way of thinking mounts. Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar are the true guilty ones here, and if there's a hell, I hope they go there.

[VapingindaCity]

Could it be that JB, gave the wrong ages cuz he dont know how old his kids are? Lol

I dont fet why he would take josh to the Cops, even if JB kinda knew the guy an official legal report was taken . Im sure they later changed their minds cuz they Specials had started and it was their meal ticket

[Rescinded and Mended]

If the whole Seewald clan is going to be standing up for Josh, Jim Bob, and Michelle... Well, I'll just say I'm so very disappointed in Papa Seewald. I felt for sure, given his adamant past posts about the Duggars' ridiculousness on his blog, that he & the other Seewalds would stand firmly in Jessa's corner.

I'll be honest, I'm not disappointed or surprised at Seewald Senior's behavior. Let's remember, his initial complaint at Jim Bob Duggar was about preventing Ben from marrying Jessa sooner so that they could partake of the Godly legitimate sex. Michael Seewald wanted Ben in with the Duggars, at least initially.

Michael's tune did seem to change a bit, at least from the little bit of footage we saw on the wedding episode, where he seemed to have misgivings about Ben marrying into the Duggar family. Some of us have speculated that if he was feeling that way, it was because of the amount of control that Jim Bob was assuming over Ben's life.

I have to wonder why it is that he might be trying to protect the Duggars after everything that has come to light, outside of wanting what's best for Ben and Jessa. Given that so many of the men in these ATI circles have so much to hide, I'm now wondering if Jim Bob has anything on Michael Seewald.

[BekahJ]

I'm doing my best to keep up with this thread, but living my life seems to get in the way! I hope the following ideas have not already been posted--I don't think so.

First, Jim-Booby and J'Uterus of course think that God is always communicating with them and helping them. So I wonder what they thought when the Dairy Queen had that string of SIX boys. Did they interpret it as God saying, "I will go on giving you children, but until I am sure the sin in your house is cleared up, I will not give you a girl." I mean, SIX boys in a row--that's got to seemed weird to parents who, until that point, had an almost equal mix of what they persist in calling "genders". So, when Johannah was born, I wouldn't be surprised if they saw it as a sign from God that all was tickety-boo, the sin cleared up, and J'chelle's uterus approved to delivery more girls. And sure enough, more girls arrived. So they must have thought they had completely survived the whole Josh-problem, and there would no more trouble.

Second thought is in regard to speculation about who the victims were. I know there is reason to think that somehow Jana was spared. But, given what we have seen of the girls' personalities, I regard it as more likely that Jana was one of the victims, and Jill was not. Jill discovered it, reported it to the parents, and has been regarded as a "tattle-tale" ever since.

I get what you are saying but 4/6 boys were born before any of this happened (as far as we know, at this point.) Michelle was pregnant with Justin when the first disclosure was made and had Jackson in 2004, after Josh had returned from "treatment". I do find it interesting that Josh was married off just prior to Johannah's 3rd birthday. That seems like a deliberate attempt to get him out of the house to me, but maybe not.

[Jilltoo]

I'm glad Michael Seewald did not identify the victims. I'm sure he knows who they are. Why sensationalize and revictimize them? The media needs to stop identifying them!

[Daenerys]

I'm doing my best to keep up with this thread, but living my life seems to get in the way! I hope the following ideas have not already been posted--I don't think so.

First, Jim-Booby and J'Uterus of course think that God is always communicating with them and helping them. So I wonder what they thought when the Dairy Queen had that string of SIX boys. Did they interpret it as God saying, "I will go on giving you children, but until I am sure the sin in your house is cleared up, I will not give you a girl." I mean, SIX boys in a row--that's got to seemed weird to parents who, until that point, had an almost equal mix of what they persist in calling "genders". So, when Johannah was born, I wouldn't be surprised if they saw it as a sign from God that all was tickety-boo, the sin cleared up, and J'chelle's uterus approved to delivery more girls. And sure enough, more girls arrived. So they must have thought they had completely survived the whole Josh-problem, and there would no more trouble.

Second thought is in regard to speculation about who the victims were. I know there is reason to think that somehow Jana was spared. But, given what we have seen of the girls' personalities, I regard it as more likely that Jana was one of the victims, and Jill was not. Jill discovered it, reported it to the parents, and has been regarded as a "tattle-tale" ever since.

And really, from the perspective of an abuser trying to get away with it, the one you are going to AVOID messing with is the one you know will tell on you.

[vienna]

I know exactly how you feel. I rather wish I had proof that there was something current going on in the family that would allow for Michelle and JB to be removed from their kids. I wish I could convince the older girls to at least move out of the house and attend a 2 year institution so they don't have to rely on their parents. I wish I could convince the older boys the same thing. I wish I could provide all the children in that house with positive social interactions that don't revolve around protecting the world view their parents raised them with. I wish I could send Jinger to photography camps that allow her to experience life at the same time as growing her skills -- something like one of the National Geographic photography tours. I wish I could get all the people in that family real, licensed counseling. I wish I could help the older children not feel like the younger children are their responsibility. I want to adopt all the younger children and give them a better life and a better education (though I've always wanted to do that, the want is stronger now).

I also feel the urge to do something without knowing what. Here are some additions to the "I wish list":

I wish that the media coverage and hence what people would know about the duggars would include:

- the fact that Josh molestes his sisters not some other teeneager in an action that might have been "dotor games" or half consensual

- that his actions where of a kind that can not be interpreted as doctor games or minor experiments

- that the Duggars SPANK THEIR KIDS WITH A ROD. I mentioned this before, it makes me crazy that this has no place in the media at all. Altough molestaion is of course worse than spanking your kids, I really belive this headline has the potential to bring down the Duggars/their TLC Show. Much more than the molestations headlines.

- The ATI Guideline on how to handle sexual abuse and the role victims have in this regard

- That the girls have no choice but to forgive (instantly) because otherwise they are bad christians (which is the worst thing that could happen to them)

- That the girls have no choiches and freedoms in their lives whatsoever

I wish this all would lead to a nationwide understanding what ATI, quiverfull, homescholling includes and lead to the goverment taking more responsibility when it comes to supervising those families or acredditation of their "Colleges".

I wish the Girls could start thinking outside the small box their belives force them to exist in.

[ApologistsBeDamned]

I'm sorry, but in what would could the girls have made the CHOICE to forgive their brother? In what world have they been allowed the ability to seek the kind of long term professional help that will allow them to not only come to terms with their sexual abuse, but come to terms with how their parents reacted and how their parents conditioned them for this? And, I'm sorry, but there is nothing in how these girls act around their brother that says "oh I forgave him, everything is cool."

No. These girls have not chosen to forgive him. These girls have been told to forgive him. Their choices were dictated by their parents and their church community. Their lives were also limited to their family and their church community. Remember, none of the unmarried family members are allowed to even go out of the house without an accountability partner.

And before you say that the married girls have no choice but to seek help if they need it, how would they do that. ASSUMING their indoctrination failed and they don't blame themselves for Josh's behaviors, who do they turn to? Their entire life has been spent teaching them that worldly people will be like wolves in sheep's clothing, telling them how evil their family/church is and trying to lead them astray and into the arms of the devil. They teach that being out from "under the umbrella of protection" allows you and your family members to be hurt.

Jill MIGHT be lucky that she could turn to her in laws. IF she can even reconcile the idea of telling them. Jessa probably doesn't have that luxury, as evidenced by Guinn's post. So, even within their circles, Jill and Jessa might not be able to escape.

But, no matter what, it doesn't change the fact that you're an abuse apologizer. You're making excuses for him and trying to take away sympathy/empathy from the girls. You're painting him as a victim as if it makes his crimes acceptable, and you're painting the girls as non-victims in order to do it.

That's unacceptable.

It's one thing to say "Josh didn't grow up in a family that allowed him the resources he needed early enough to help prevent making more of his sisters victims" and a different thing to say "well it's not his fault his parents sexually repressed him."

There are sexually repressed people all over this world who DO NOT sexually abuse. And there are sexually active and liberated people all over this world who DO sexually abuse. And why is this? Because abuse is NOT about sex. Abuse is NOT being horny and needing an outlet. Abuse is control. Abuse is power. Abuse is a sense of entitlement to someone else and their life/livelihood.

There. Is. No. Double. Standard.

You have an acute problem with reading comprehension.

I didn't say any of the nonsense you just claimed I did.

You just want to purposely misunderstand someone who doesn't group think with you and make claims that are not substantiated.

Think whatever you want about my understanding of what Josh did but you clearly aren't actually reading or understanding any of it.

Enjoy your misunderstanding if it helps you sleep at night.

PS ALL THESE "GIRLS" ARE NOW GROWN ADULTS with the exception of Joy and two of them are married with children

[Fascinated]

I've noticed that some regular posters have largely steered clear of this discussion, and I cannot guess as to why. But, I know that I haven't commented because I am appalled at the general tone here. The thread has been taken over by a few posters who seem to KNOW exactly what the Duggar girls have been feeling for the last twelve years. And, although nothing has actually changed within in their family with regard to this, except that it is now public knowledge, these posters also KNOW exactly what the girls are thinking and feeling now.

Anyone who expresses any kind of sympathy for Josh is lambasted and labelled a leghumper, disgusting and, basically, a piece of shit. My understanding was that FJ was a forum to discuss, and try to change, the problems inherent in the fundamental lifestyle. I don't think the majority of comments are seeking to do that.

Not a single person here denies that what Josh did to his sisters and another girl was wrong. We do NOT KNOW why he did it. We DO NOT know if he is a pedophile. We DO NOT know if he has re-offended in the intervening years.

I think that the commenters who have expressed any kind of empathy for Josh, because of his upbringing and for the way this was handled by his parents, are deserving of respect. I am, like everyone else, deeply sorry for what the girls endured, and hope they do not feel responsible in any way. I hope they can heal and even leave the lifestyle, just like we've all always hoped they would. But, as nauseated by this whole situation as I am, reading these hundreds of comments is sickening as well.

I feel so bad for ALL the Duggar kids, INCLUDING Josh and Anna and their kids. Go ahead. Have at me.

[vienna]

Another Thing, Dericks latest twitter message from May 21st sis tating that Jim Bon got to hold Israel FOR THE FIRST TIME on this very day ( hence 3 days ago).

I find it really strange that it takes them about 6 WEEKS to have Jim Bob hold Israel for the first time. Maybe a good sign?

By the way: I agree with the statment from fascinated. Anna and her kids are victims here as well and Josh to some extend too. When it comes to his actions, even the Police Report does not make it clear what really happened. I don´t believe he is a pedophile and I think his kids (and other kids) are save but that does not change anything on for the victims. The focus needs to be drawn to the ATI teaching, their believes and the enviroment that made all what happened possible. The main problem are Michelle and Jim Bob and the cult.

[BekahJ]

I too am concerned that 100% of the Duggar girls' actions are being painted with the brush of victimization. "Oh well, now we know why Jana is quiet", "Now we know why Jessa is standoffish", "Now we know what [random quote from Season 2 episode] really meant!"

No. We don't. I think that the biggest disservice that we can to do for the Duggar Girls is to state that every choice they've ever made, every personality trait, every thing they've said, is a product of sexual abuse. That attitude classifies them as victims and nothing else. It means that their accomplishments, their demeanors and their choices are only because of what happened to them on one of the worst days of their lives. That's bullshit and it revictimizes them. (I don't mean just here on FreeJinger, but all over the internet.)

[LogansMama]

Ugh, sickening.

At least the Dillard's (for now at least) seem to have the good sense to shut up and not take sides. How that may change in coming days remains to be seen.

I'm sure there's a TON of pressure on them to put out a supportive statement right now.

[church_of_dog]

I saw it mentioned once in the earlier parts of this thread, but not replied to or discussed that I saw, that if new victims come to light, the statute of limitations wouldn't apply or would have a different calendar than the incidents that were known about years ago. Does anyone know if this is true?

[LogansMama]

Another Thing, Dericks latest twitter message from May 21st sis tating that Jim Bon got to hold Israel FOR THE FIRST TIME on this very day ( hence 3 days ago).

I find it really strange that it takes them about 6 WEEKS to have Jim Bob hold Israel for the first time. Maybe a good sign?

By the way: I agree with the statment from fascinated. Anna and her kids are victims here as well and Josh to some extend too. When it comes to his actions, even the Police Report does not make it clear what really happened. I don´t believe he is a pedophile and I think his kids (and other kids) are save but that does not change anything on for the victims. The focus needs to be drawn to the ATI teaching, their believes and the enviroment that made all what happened possible. The main problem are Michelle and Jim Bob and the cult.

Now that's really bizarre and telling.