Jill Duggar Dillard, Derick Dillard, & Baby Israel - Part 2

[sense and nonsense]

I will admit that I've been guilty of defending Jessa when some people were saying that she wouldn't take part in raising her child much and just hand him over to Ben. (Look up Jessa Duggar Seewald is Pregnant Part 2)

But to suggest that the posters who express themselves here would approach a new mom in public and take it out on her is ridiculous, bordering on crazy.

This is a forum discussing fundies and the details of their lives that THEY make public, Jill is a fundie. Enough said. If you don't like that some people are picking apart details of a reality show star's life, don't take part in it.

I also hate the fact that you made it out that ALL posters were complaining about EVERYTHING.

No, the entire board doesn't have a collective opinion. Some posters thought her labour story was ridiculous, some didn't. Nobody had both opinions.

Also, I don't think Jill gives two shits about what we say. So get off your high horse.

If you're so worried about Jill as a new mom, you may want to email those GMA snoops and lecture them for pointing out that Jill was wrong on a show much more popular than hers. Jill might actually appreciate that one.

[bal maiden]

My guess as to why many posters are frustrated by these threads in QFOD is that there used to be a lot of informed critique and discussion of the strictures of religious fundamentalism, patriarchy etc., and discussion of individuals was often within the context of that. Now, much of the time, it feels like straight up character assassinations - omg Jessa's stance is too wide/omg Jill is so frumpy and raises her eyebrows wrong - which often comes across as uninformed about the wider context of the Duggars' lives, and kind of dumbs down FJ's raison d'être. So I don't think it's a case of people disagreeing and not liking others' opinions on the Jill, J'Derick et al., in my opinion people are objecting to a losing of the bigger picture. It's not just about discussing fundies' lives as if they were any other celebrity you hate-follow, it's about seeing the damage fundamentalism can do.

[Mama Mia]

Holy humorless drama queens batman!

Good lord. I wrote that because I thought it was funny, I still think it's funny. In fact I think it was damn funny - and I'm particularly pleased with myself for including " bless your heart" - which FJ taught me is Southern lady for " fuck you".

All I can say to the folks who feel scolded or that I was shaming them or that their speech is stifled --- is if you take an Internet post that seriously, you are maybe experiencing some other issues. You all can post anything you like. If I want to post something and you find it hand slappy -- so what? Why on earth do you care?

I honestly doubt anyone would have actually talked to a new mother that way. Or at least I would hope not. I also doubt that Jill is getting her feelings hurt by reading here - because I doubt very much that she does read here. I think some of the completely off - the - wall rumors people spew are ridiculous - especially since the media sometimes picks them up - but that's not what this thread is. Of course people can snark on her and pick apart her choices.

What creeps me out about these conversations isn't the discussion of her birth or parenting. I like hearing birth stories, sharing experiences, especially unusual ones. Of course people are going to have different views of what's ideal - or even acceptable. Hospital or home birth. Epidural or pain med free. All that stuff makes for interesting conversations. That's why I participate on labor threads. But yeah, I do find it disturbing, and aggravating, that there is a general fight club level of viscousness about absolutely any choice Jill makes. I would bet significant cash that if she had the picture perfect 100% natural home birth that completely followed her plan --she would be torn to bits for for being smug special spoiled Jilly muffin. If she hit 40 weeks and decided to go the hospital route - complete with planned induction and epidural-- people would be crowing over how they knew she was a wimp since she was scared of the dentist and she should suck it up and go med- free.

Your right to go on a mile long Rant detailing the 10,000 ways Jill is a failure as a human being

Does not trump my right to go on a lengthy rant about why I think that's that's ridiculous.

[formergothardite]

Holy humorless drama queens batman!

Good lord. I wrote that because I thought it was funny, I still think it's funny. In fact I think it was damn funny - and I'm particularly pleased with myself for including " bless your heart" - which FJ taught me is Southern lady for " fuck you".

All I can say to the folks who feel scolded or that I was shaming them or that their speech is stifled --- is if you take an Internet post that seriously, you are maybe experiencing some other issues. You all can post anything you like. If I want to post something and you find it hand slappy -- so what? Why on earth do you care?

I honestly doubt anyone would have actually talked to a new mother that way. Or at least I would hope not. I also doubt that Jill is getting her feelings hurt by reading here - because I doubt very much that she does read here. I think some of the completely off - the - wall rumors people spew are ridiculous - especially since the media sometimes picks them up - but that's not what this thread is. Of course people can snark on her and pick apart her choices.

What creeps me out about these conversations isn't the discussion of her birth or parenting. I like hearing birth stories, sharing experiences, especially unusual ones. Of course people are going to have different views of what's ideal - or even acceptable. Hospital or home birth. Epidural or pain med free. All that stuff makes for interesting conversations. That's why I participate on labor threads. But yeah, I do find it disturbing, and aggravating, that there is a general fight club level of viscousness about absolutely any choice Jill makes. I would bet significant cash that if she had the picture perfect 100% natural home birth that completely followed her plan --she would be torn to bits for for being smug special spoiled Jilly muffin. If she hit 40 weeks and decided to go the hospital route - complete with planned induction and epidural-- people would be crowing over how they knew she was a wimp since she was scared of the dentist and she should suck it up and go med- free.

Your right to go on a mile long Rant detailing the 10,000 ways Jill is a failure as a human being

Does not trump my right to go on a lengthy rant about why I think that's that's ridiculous.

Like I said in the Aren't the Bates So Much Better Than the Duggars thread, the Duggars are damned if they do and damned if they don't. I still don't understand why people give Kelly a pass on not knowing her children well enough to name them while Jill gets torn to shreds for doing things that lots of new mothers do.

[lascuba]

Dude, you do not think it's funny. Come on, now. I'm a big fan of ranting and calling people out on things one thinks are ridiculous. I'm on the internet mostly for the drama, after all. If you had just said something like, "Your arguments are stupid and here's why," that would have been great. You went big steps beyond that.

[Palimpsest]

My guess as to why many posters are frustrated by these threads in QFOD is that there used to be a lot of informed critique and discussion of the strictures of religious fundamentalism, patriarchy etc., and discussion of individuals was often within the context of that. Now, much of the time, it feels like straight up character assassinations - omg Jessa's stance is too wide/omg Jill is so frumpy and raises her eyebrows wrong - which often comes across as uninformed about the wider context of the Duggars' lives, and kind of dumbs down FJ's raison d'être. So I don't think it's a case of people disagreeing and not liking others' opinions on the Jill, J'Derick et al., in my opinion people are objecting to a losing of the bigger picture. It's not just about discussing fundies' lives as if they were any other celebrity you hate-follow, it's about seeing the damage fundamentalism can do.

This. All of this. Thank you.

FJ has always been a snark board about the evils of extreme patriarchal fundamentalist beliefs, but allows considerable room for differences of opinion. Some of the Duggar snark recently has toppled over into character assassination, nasty comments about personal appearances, irrelevancies not connected to the flawed belief system -- alternating with some vigorous leghumping. It is odd reading over on the Duggar forum these days.

And Mama Mia's Ms. Snoop post was hilarious! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[VelociRapture]

Sorry to interrupt and jump back to Part 1 for a moment.

To the person who mentioned they felt my use of "little man" when referring to Israel:

Please keep in mind that my family (and many others) use that term out of endearment for baby boys, not because we're caught up in the patriarchy. The reasons why people use that term differ, but for me it tends to be a combination of two reasons:

1. Baby boys tend to look like little old men when they're very young (baby girls, in my own opinion, don't resemble little old men too much; I tend to refer to them as "Little Lady", "Miss ----", or "Baby ----"). Baby Izzy did look like a little old man for a bit and, combined with his gigantic size, I felt the term was appropriate for him.

2. In my family there was a little doll that was given to a Great-Uncle when he was an infant. This doll was called The Little Man and became a kind of family legend over the years. So I adopted the term based off that as well.

You can object to the use of the term if you want - that's your right. It's also my right to use the term when I see fit.

[VelociRapture]

Back to the current discussion:

Everyone can say whatever they want to. Everyone can call someone else for something they said too. If you say something that ventures into character assassination territory then don't be surprised if you get called out for it - same with being overly defensive of any of the families we discuss here.

Use basic manners, don't over generalize about things, and respect that others have a right to disagree. Do those things and you'll be fine.

[sense and nonsense]

Back to the current discussion:

Everyone can say whatever they want to. Everyone can call someone else for something they said too. If you say something that ventures into character assassination territory then don't be surprised if you get called out for it - same with being overly defensive of any of the families we discuss here.

Use basic manners, don't over generalize about things, and respect that others have a right to disagree. Do those things and you'll be fine.

While some people use the term with patriarchal connotations (like when they tell toddlers whose fathers are going out of the house for a bit that 'Little man, you need to look after your mom and be the man of the house), your post certainly didn't imply any such thing.

Sexism deserves to be called out, but context is important.

[Lucy H]

I don't like Jill at all. I was never team Jill. I don't know it's just her personality and redness towards others like her siblings. I also don't feel bad that she's being picked apart. I hate when reality tv stars cry that people talk bad about them, duhh you're on public tv.

Now that Jill's a mom, she's with the mommy club. In the mommy club other moms will tell you how you should raise your kids. I got a lot of hate for not breastfeeding, having my sons circumcised, piercing my daughter ears, etc.

Ine the topic of pierced ears, I was watching the years of Duggar births VSE yesterday and noticed that it looks like Mackynzie has pierced ears. My husband was sitting with me reading and I rewound it and we both watched. I am sure we saw it. It doesn't seem possible but does she? It seems all out of line for a Duggar. Can anyone confirm?

I am sure you daughters is adorable with her pierced ears.Toothfairy.

[sense and nonsense]

Ine the topic of pierced ears, I was watching the years of Duggar births VSE yesterday and noticed that it looks like Mackynzie has pierced ears. My husband was sitting with me reading and I rewound it and we both watched. I am sure we saw it. It doesn't seem possible but does she? It seems all out of line for a Duggar. Can anyone confirm?

I am sure you daughters is adorable with her pierced ears.Toothfairy.

I had my ears pierced as a baby, glad I never had to fight that battle with my mom.

[Lucy H]

Here is my problem with Jill's birth story: We didn't get one, or at least not a complete and in any way accruate one. She attempted a home birth but it went awry in some dramatic and potentially very dangerous ways. At least, that is what People said, the VSE episode made it seem all very ho hum, with the exception of JB et al praying on their knees for Jill and Izzy.

From what we know she did some things in her labor not currently advised by medical experts, like using caster oil, laboring for more than 24 hours after her water broke, and (maybe) not going to the hospital as soon as she saw meconium. There also seems to have been mistakes in her care, like missing the fact that Izzy was breech or attempting a breech home birth. I am highly suspicious of the flipping during labor story.

I would have liked an accurate depiction of her labor and delivery and I think that is what TLC was planning until things went wrong. They filled the two hour VSE with fluff because someone didn't want the gory details put on TV.

I actually feel sorry for poor Anna, having the intimate details of three births put on TV for million of people to watch but precious Jilly muffin gets to bow out. I want to know what really happened, not the Duggar lie version. Why not, unless they think it would make Jill and everyone* involved in her care look really bad?

*Obviously excluding the medical professionals at the hospital here.

[Lucy H]

Whatever the consensus of opinion about Jill before her marriage and move into the adult world, I find it to be so disappointing that not only have JB&M retained their iron grip on Jill, they have successfully sucked Derick into it.

It is my true belief that this patriarchy and quiverfull are dangerous and damaging beliefs, especially to women. I know it is still early in the game, but I had harbored hope that as the adult children moved away from JB&M they would start to see cracks and fissures. So far it seems they are even more devout than the parents.

Time will tell a different tale I'm sure. It is disheartening to me how many people think the Duggars are "at least something to safely watch on TV" and have no clue what the Duggars are really doing.

I agree but also dislike the whitewashing of their political views. Joshie works for what many, including me, think of as a hate group but we are just told he has a job in Washington.

They offer their support to far right politicians that seek to pass laws oppressive to women but that is never shown on TLC. They are not cute, they are dangerous and every people cover that makes them seem mainstream makes them more dangerous,

[ClaraOswin]

Holy humorless drama queens batman!

Good lord. I wrote that because I thought it was funny, I still think it's funny. In fact I think it was damn funny - and I'm particularly pleased with myself for including " bless your heart" - which FJ taught me is Southern lady for " fuck you".

All I can say to the folks who feel scolded or that I was shaming them or that their speech is stifled --- is if you take an Internet post that seriously, you are maybe experiencing some other issues. You all can post anything you like. If I want to post something and you find it hand slappy -- so what? Why on earth do you care?

I honestly doubt anyone would have actually talked to a new mother that way. Or at least I would hope not. I also doubt that Jill is getting her feelings hurt by reading here - because I doubt very much that she does read here. I think some of the completely off - the - wall rumors people spew are ridiculous - especially since the media sometimes picks them up - but that's not what this thread is. Of course people can snark on her and pick apart her choices.

What creeps me out about these conversations isn't the discussion of her birth or parenting. I like hearing birth stories, sharing experiences, especially unusual ones. Of course people are going to have different views of what's ideal - or even acceptable. Hospital or home birth. Epidural or pain med free. All that stuff makes for interesting conversations. That's why I participate on labor threads. But yeah, I do find it disturbing, and aggravating, that there is a general fight club level of viscousness about absolutely any choice Jill makes. I would bet significant cash that if she had the picture perfect 100% natural home birth that completely followed her plan --she would be torn to bits for for being smug special spoiled Jilly muffin. If she hit 40 weeks and decided to go the hospital route - complete with planned induction and epidural-- people would be crowing over how they knew she was a wimp since she was scared of the dentist and she should suck it up and go med- free.

Your right to go on a mile long Rant detailing the 10,000 ways Jill is a failure as a human being

Does not trump my right to go on a lengthy rant about why I think that's that's ridiculous.

You are absolutely correct in this (bolded.) But part of that is because some people would have torn her to bits for one reason and others would have torn her to bits for the other. No matter what SOMEONE is going to disagree with what she does. Sure, there will always be some people who will just rip her to shreds on EVERY decision no matter what it is. But there are also those of us who wouldn't.

[somanybooks]

I agree but also dislike the whitewashing of their political views. Joshie works for what many, including me, think of as a hate group but we are just told he has a job in Washington.

They offer their support to far right politicians that seek to pass laws oppressive to women but that is never shown on TLC. They are not cute, they are dangerous and every people cover that makes them seem mainstream makes them more dangerous,

Just today on the editorial page of my newspaper was a column entitled "Why did the GOP cave in to delusional paranoia?" written by Gene Lyons who is a columnist for the Arkansas Times. These lines jumped out at me: "But just across the border (from El Paso, TX) in Chihuahua, according to the Family Research Council there's a secret ISIS base with thousands of terrorists poised to strike. Hundreds of miles of underground tunnels have been dug to facilitate the invasion." (bolded added by me). As most here already know, FRC is Josh Duggar's employer.

[VelociRapture]

While some people use the term with patriarchal connotations (like when they tell toddlers whose fathers are going out of the house for a bit that 'Little man, you need to look after your mom and be the man of the house), your post certainly didn't imply any such thing.

Sexism deserves to be called out, but context is important.

Thanks. And I totally agree - sexism should absolutely be noted and called out, but context is important to keep in mind.

[SassyPants]

In terms of the evils of a patriarchal society and the Duggars, how long can a conversation stay on that topic? Would new information continually come to light? Is there active research involved? It seems like the Duggar related conversation on FJ would have died long ago if comments stayed strictly within the confines of that topic. Yes, I think most can agree about the evils of certain concepts, including religions and cults, on various people, and most certainly youngsters whose minds are still developing.

I also think people need to realize that as the kids get older and reach the age of adulthood themselves, the topics discussed here are going to change, drastically. What is appropriate to say or discuss about Jill's life, behaviors and decisions is very different from what would be appropriate to discuss about Joy's life. I think once you're living outside the big house and have a family of your own, the decisions that you make can no longer be blamed on your parents...Otherwise, if it's wrong to be pointing at the negatives of Jill's choices and behaviors it would be equally as wrong to point out such about JB and M's decisions and behaviors. Are people willing to agree that last sentence???

In addition, Jill has received flack for some of her recent decisions because they had/have (in the case of the sling) the potential to harm another, dependent human being. So, Jill has become JB and M- the flack taker, and Izzy has taken Jill's position as the one who is to be protected. If you add on the fact that Jill certainly has the potential to be viewed as a role model for other fundie young mothers, then her decisions should certainly be discussed, especially if she is shown to be doing things that can be harmful or have horrible consequences. Jill does have a responsibility in that area.

[Kira]

Dude, you do not think it's funny. Come on, now. I'm a big fan of ranting and calling people out on things one thinks are ridiculous. I'm on the internet mostly for the drama, after all. If you had just said something like, "Your arguments are stupid and here's why," that would have been great. You went big steps beyond that.

I can just imagine if some of the posters here had the same attitude in conversation with a new mom' they know in real life :lol:

It was funny :lol:

[JillyO]

Ine the topic of pierced ears, I was watching the years of Duggar births VSE yesterday and noticed that it looks like Mackynzie has pierced ears. My husband was sitting with me reading and I rewound it and we both watched. I am sure we saw it. It doesn't seem possible but does she? It seems all out of line for a Duggar. Can anyone confirm?

I am sure you daughters is adorable with her pierced ears.Toothfairy.

They have no problem with piercing little girls' ears. Jordyn got hers pierced for her sixth birthday.

[sense and nonsense]

In terms of the evils of a patriarchal society and the Duggars, how long can a conversation stay on that topic? Would new information continually come to light? Is there active research involved? It seems like the Duggar related conversation on FJ would have died long ago if comments stayed strictly within the confines of that topic. Yes, I think most can agree about the evils of certain concepts, including religions and cults, on various people, and most certainly youngsters whose minds are still developing.

I also think people need to realize that as the kids get older and reach the age of adulthood themselves, the topics discussed here are going to change, drastically. What is appropriate to say or discuss about Jill's life, behaviors and decisions is very different from what would be appropriate to discuss about Joy's life. I think once you're living outside the big house and have a family of your own, the decisions that you make can no longer be blamed on your parents...Otherwise, if it's wrong to be pointing at the negatives of Jill's choices and behaviors it would be equally as wrong to point out such about JB and M's decisions and behaviors. Are people willing to agree that last sentence???

In addition, Jill has received flack for some of her recent decisions because they had/have (in the case of the sling) the potential to harm another, dependent human being. So, Jill has become JB and M- the flack taker, and Izzy has taken Jill's position as the one who is to be protected. If you add on the fact that Jill certainly has the potential to be viewed as a role model for other fundie young mothers, then her decisions should certainly be discussed, especially if she is shown to be doing things that can be harmful or have horrible consequences. Jill does have a responsibility in that area.

Totally agree.

I don't get why some people are so bothered by conspiracy theories?

Most other fundies we follow have their own blogs, thus giving us words directly from them to snark and debate on. The need for conspiracy theories is eliminated (Unless it's the Maxwells, Steve likes to keep us on edge).

From the Duggars, all we get are highly scripted 'reality' show scenes, snippets in highly posed Instagrams (where they certainly appear to skew the timeline) and People's PR fluff pieces.

They are fundie royalty, and there is going to be a lot of speculation. I've not yet seen any posters claim that what they think must be the absolute truth, they're just exploring options.

Public lives mean public speculation. This isn't a new phenomenon.

[curlykate]

Thanks. And I totally agree - sexism should absolutely be noted and called out, but context is important to keep in mind.

I called my oldest son "Little Man" until he was a toddler. (Not sure why I stopped, but it was likely due to the fact that I came up with a different nickname for him). I still call my youngest "Little Man", as he's only 10 weeks old and I havent found another nickname to suit him yet. To me, some infants just come out looking like "old souls" and the term, "Little Man" just fits. I've met many boys that the nickname just doesn't seem to fit. The same goes for "Little Lady". Unfortunately I didn't have girls, so I never got to use that nickname. At least on my part, there is no sexist or patriarchal connotations behind the name.

As for the bolding (mine), my boyfriend works out of town during the weeks. Before he leaves each week, he has a chat with my oldest (5 years old) about being a good boy, and taking care of Mommy and little brother while daddy is gone. This is not done in a patriarchal sense, but it's done to make him feel like a big boy, and to help ease the transition when daddy leaves. It gives my son a sense of purpose, and something to focus on while daddy is gone, because he misses his daddy so much (which usually manifests in acting out and misbehaving.) It helps him adjust for the week, knowing that he's helping his daddy out, even though lets face it, he's not that big of a help at age 5. My boyfriend knows that as a single mother of two, I still make out better than he does alone for the week. In no way do we follow the patriarchal model, and my boyfriend does not agree with that philosophy. To us, him saying those things to our son is not sexist.

Wow. Long winded. All that to say, that yes, context is important. Even phrases that many here fine sexist or patriarchal are not always intended to be that way.

[VelociRapture]

In terms of the evils of a patriarchal society and the Duggars, how long can a conversation stay on that topic? Would new information continually come to light? Is there active research involved? It seems like the Duggar related conversation on FJ would have died long ago if comments stayed strictly within the confines of that topic. Yes, I think most can agree about the evils of certain concepts, including religions and cults, on various people, and most certainly youngsters whose minds are still developing.

I also think people need to realize that as the kids get older and reach the age of adulthood themselves, the topics discussed here are going to change, drastically. What is appropriate to say or discuss about Jill's life, behaviors and decisions is very different from what would be appropriate to discuss about Joy's life. I think once you're living outside the big house and have a family of your own, the decisions that you make can no longer be blamed on your parents...Otherwise, if it's wrong to be pointing at the negatives of Jill's choices and behaviors it would be equally as wrong to point out such about JB and M's decisions and behaviors. Are people willing to agree that last sentence???

In addition, Jill has received flack for some of her recent decisions because they had/have (in the case of the sling) the potential to harm another, dependent human being. So, Jill has become JB and M- the flack taker, and Izzy has taken Jill's position as the one who is to be protected. If you add on the fact that Jill certainly has the potential to be viewed as a role model for other fundie young mothers, then her decisions should certainly be discussed, especially if she is shown to be doing things that can be harmful or have horrible consequences. Jill does have a responsibility in that area.

Agree with most of what you said. I do think the conversations and discussions on here may have died out a long time ago if there hadn't been other things to focus on as well. It would be cool to see those topics you mentioned brought back up (especially in order to help us newbies understand things better), but we need the other topics to keep things moving on here.

I do think that the adult kids are open to more criticism than the minor children are - and I agree that the married kids (in any Fundie family) are fair game in ways that the unmarried adult kids aren't. I agree that if one of the new parents is doing something that could obviously harm their child - such as sewing with your young toddler right on your lap or incorrectly placing your newborn in a sling - then they should be called out on it.

For me, personally, I still don't feel entirely comfortable criticizing the married kids in the way I criticize Boob or Michelle. The main reason for this is because Boob and Michelle made an active decision to raise their family in the manner they did - their kids were raised not to be able to think critically and to believe everything their parents have done to them is completely normal behavior. To me, that is abusive and it could wind up taking a very long time for the kids to realize that. I absolutely see why you and others don't agree though - and when people on both sides of the discussion are being respectful and open-minded it makes for a really interesting conversation (I feel like it would be really boring if we all agreed on everything all the time).

[SassyPants]

Totally agree.

I don't get why some people are so bothered by conspiracy theories?

Most other fundies we follow have their own blogs, thus giving us words directly from them to snark and debate on. The need for conspiracy theories is eliminated (Unless it's the Maxwells, Steve likes to keep us on edge).

From the Duggars, all we get are highly scripted 'reality' show scenes, snippets in highly posed Instagrams (where they certainly appear to skew the timeline) and People's PR fluff pieces.

They are fundie royalty, and there is going to be a lot of speculation. I've not yet seen any posters claim that what they think must be the absolute truth, they're just exploring options.

Public lives mean public speculation. This isn't a new phenomenon.

It seems some on this board have their "niche" issues and maybe want to control the flow of conversation and debate via those topics??? IDK. I have also seen a comment about newer people being too willing to jump right into conversation, as if there should be some sort of initiation/orientation process????

Like I said, the nature of a maturing family where almost half the members are legal adults and doing adult things, will change the course of conversation and debate about that family. It's too bad some posters seem to be upset or angry that conversation paths have changed.

In terms of speculation and whether or not that should be curbed, I find that absurd. About 99% of what is discussed on this board is speculative. In terms of truth, even the words that come out of the Duggars' mouths are suspect much of the time as they are repeatedly shown to contradict themselves.

[SassyPants]

Agree with most of what you said. I do think the conversations and discussions on here may have died out a long time ago if there hadn't been other things to focus on as well. It would be cool to see those topics you mentioned brought back up (especially in order to help us newbies understand things better), but we need the other topics to keep things moving on here.

I do think that the adult kids are open to more criticism than the minor children are - and I agree that the married kids (in any Fundie family) are fair game in ways that the unmarried adult kids aren't. I agree that if one of the new parents is doing something that could obviously harm their child - such as sewing with your young toddler right on your lap or incorrectly placing your newborn in a sling - then they should be called out on it.

For me, personally, I still don't feel entirely comfortable criticizing the married kids in the way I criticize Boob or Michelle. The main reason for this is because Boob and Michelle made an active decision to raise their family in the manner they did - their kids were raised not to be able to think critically and to believe everything their parents have done to them is completely normal behavior. To me, that is abusive and it could wind up taking a very long time for the kids to realize that. I absolutely see why you and others don't agree though - and when people on both sides of the discussion are being respectful and open-minded it makes for a really interesting conversation (I feel like it would be really boring if we all agreed on everything all the time).

I agree what JB and M have done to their kids by purposely limiting education, choice, real world experiences is unconscionable. Poor Jill is a living example of harm done.

[mpheels]

Just a quick thought on their choice of hospital - it's possible that the nearest hospital is out of network for insurance purposes. I'm confident Izzie's birth was covered by health insurance through Wal-Mart (because we've seen proof of Izzie's enrollment in the plan via instagram posts). Wal-Mart is self-insured (as are most companies of that size), which means they hire an insurance company to administer the program, but Wal-Mart directly funds the insurance pool, and is deeply involved in negotiations with hospitals and physicians' groups to provide care under the plan. Sometime negotiations fall apart, and major hospitals or networks are temporarily left out of coverage plans for major employers. If for some reason the closest hospital isn't currently in plan for the Dillards, that would explain why they chose to drive as far as they did.