Derick, Jill, and Izzie

[sense and nonsense]

Well no dear. That's not the way it works :lol: Nobody is trying to stop a discussion, merely just pointing out they disagree with other's rather opinions.

Everybody is entitled to their own particular ludicrous opinion unfortunately they have to deal with that being challenged, whinged about, picked apart, possibly laughed at and definitely commented on.

So no, it's not because it ruffles feathers, or people are above the Duggars (OH let me see, could be the reason a lot of people joined here........duh!) It's mainly because when folks decide to post their conspiracy/imaginary/drama laden nit pickingly detailed account there are others who disagree and that is kind of the point of FJ. That is not disrupting a thread, that is called debate. Also to point out that nobody has asked anybody to stop posting......except you. Who appear to not want your snark interrupted :naughty:

Oh gosh, you misinterpreted my post. I'm sorry it wasn't clear, but what I meant to say was kind of what you said. Everything should be discussed and debated. When posters claim stuff like 'Jill rejected pitocin', they should be able to back themselves up, and their evidence/ sources should be analyzed. I'm not against that at all. In fact, I take part in these discussions. Nowhere did I say that anybody should stop posting their theories/ their opinion against said theories just because it isn't snark.

In a nutshell, what I wanted to say was that people cannot always expect the board discussion to go in the direction they want. You cannot bitch because someone brought up a topic that you weren't interested in. This a diverse forum.

This is very different from exposing what someone said as incorrect/ factually inaccurate. That is debate. That is literally the purpose of a forum. I was certainly NOT referencing your post about the People article being a conspiracy theory, sorry if you thought I was, despite my disclaimer. I was not talking about a specific post on this thread.

I really don't want to start a huge argument on a few ambiguous words I wrote out before my coffee. Sorry if the intent of my post is unclear (despite the disclaimer). I do not want to offend anyone.

[sense and nonsense]

Also, as I said before, there is CLEARLY some manipulation with the birth story.

I think Jill was basically completely unprepared to undertake labour for the first time on camera. It is a difficult experience for any one, and to go through a traumatic labour that goes completely against all your plans is horrible enough without wondering how you will be perceived by the audience of your national TV show for 'failing' in homebirth. (This is how I feel Jill might see it).

I do have some sympathy for her, but she is no longer a minor under the control of her father. As an expectant parent, she should have made the decision that was best for her baby and not what was best for the viewer's perception of her. GBS+ itself is enough to discontinue the homebirth (though it is still possible to have a safe home birth and a healthy baby) but to proceed labouring in the hospital 20 hours after meconium staining is just plain stupid. No hospital is going to allow you to go on for 20 hours after meconium staining or 70 hours after ROM. Either she lied (or simply omitted the meconium) to the medical professionals (but she's a midwife too, y'all) or she intentionally refused intervention repeatedly to the point that Izzy was in grave danger (if the distress info is correct) OR the whole hospital labour story is a lie, and the section was performed almost immediately on arrival at the hospital.

But its clear that there is some timeline manip going on, and J&D cannot be oblivious to it.

Also, seeing how eager she is to have more kids, I think her refusal of pitocin and any intervention in the hospital for a long time (and her reluctance to go to the hospital itself) stemmed from the fact that a first baby CS would certainly make it difficult for a VBAC the second time. Lots of people say that Michelle had successful VBACs, but what they forget is that Josh was vaginal. This made it a lot easier for her to have Jill VBAC after the CS with the twins. It would be significantly harder for Jill if her firstborn was a CS, thus making her even more anxious to not have a section. This was discussed widely on the birth thread, and would certainly have been running through her head at the time.

[Miggy]

Still haven't seen the show so need some more info please ...

What part did Derick play in all of this? I'm just catching up on shows now and it seems to be Jill and Michelle saying "Everything will be fine. I'm a midwife. I know about birth." Derick doesn't say much. In contrast, on Instagram Derick seemed a lot more interested in pregnancy and birth. So, how much did he know? Was he able to recognise problems as they occurred? For example, when Jill sees meconium did he react with concern about baby or just ask Jill what she thought they should do?

In my first birth I had nurses and then doctors pushing me to have an epidural, which I really didn't want. Then Mr Miggy came in and just told me "You need an epidural. Stop arguing." I trust him so I had one. I found out after the delivery that the doctor thought I needed a caesar and wanted the epidural in so I could go to theatre. (Things got messy from there and I delivered naturally but with injuries that are still with me 20 years later.)

So, based on my own experiences, I know we don't always make rational decisions during birth. Hormones and pain take over. That's why you have a birth partner you trust. They take over making decisions. So, was Derick shown making any decisions? Encouraging Jill to do something? Or was he just doing what Jill told him?

[Nowyn]

Still haven't seen the show so need some more info please ...

What part did Derick play in all of this? I'm just catching up on shows now and it seems to be Jill and Michelle saying "Everything will be fine. I'm a midwife. I know about birth." Derick doesn't say much. In contrast, on Instagram Derick seemed a lot more interested in pregnancy and birth. So, how much did he know? Was he able to recognise problems as they occurred? For example, when Jill sees meconium did he react with concern about baby or just ask Jill what she thought they should do?

In my first birth I had nurses and then doctors pushing me to have an epidural, which I really didn't want. Then Mr Miggy came in and just told me "You need an epidural. Stop arguing." I trust him so I had one. I found out after the delivery that the doctor thought I needed a caesar and wanted the epidural in so I could go to theatre. (Things got messy from there and I delivered naturally but with injuries that are still with me 20 years later.)

So, based on my own experiences, I know we don't always make rational decisions during birth. Hormones and pain take over. That's why you have a birth partner you trust. They take over making decisions. So, was Derick shown making any decisions? Encouraging Jill to do something? Or was he just doing what Jill told him?

There wasn't enough to say anything about how Derick reacted. It was mostly some short shots of Jill going trough contractions and him supporting her. And lots of talking heads. He seemed to do the supporting part pretty well. He was the one who decided to call Michelle, Jana and Rachel in, but IIRC that's all they said about his decicions.

[karen77]

It's so weird that it's already over and talked to pieces. The way i imagined it would be -- like one of those beautiful "perfect" homebirth videos on youtube, just didn't happen. I haven't watched any since about 5 years ago but just the memories of them, that's what i figured would happen for perfect Jill. It's so easy to envy moms who seemed to have everything go right. I feel so sorry for Jill. All the snark i threw out, wishing she'd freak out, rip the dumb prayer cards and toss them at Derick; i changed my mind, it's sad. It just shows how real life is impossible to control.

I agree with you, except I still wish she'd have ripped up the prayer cards and tossed them at Derick...got have SOME entertainment :)

[Alachantal]

In addition to alumni/legacy scholarships, it's possible Derick received a scholarship for being Pistol Pete. I know my alma mater offered scholarships to cheerleaders, mascot characters, and some members of the marching band based on a combination of need, merit, and service for the sports marketing department.

It also breaks my heart a little to see $18K/year cited as affordable. Back in the dark ages (2000-2006), I paid about $5000/year for in statue tuition at one of the best public universities in the country (and that included student fees!). I did my bachelors and masters back-to-back, and the two degrees combined cost less than one year at most private universities.

It just boggles my mind that tuition is $18K/year there. I'm in Canada and I paid about $5,400/yr here at one of the top universities in my province. I lived off campus,had some scholarships and worked full time and barely squeaked by without debt. I have no idea how that's even possible down in the states!

I graduated 2012 and then never used my degree because it wasn't where my heart lay (I have my BA in history but I'm a trucker) but I believe in finishing what I started. While I was attending uni there was tuition increases regularly, but nothing crazy like $18K a year!

[Rescinded and Mended]

That's the impression I got. Still haven't seen the show yet, but I know Derick and Jill took the birth classes together and did research, so I'm hoping he advocated for her and helped her make the really tough decisions, even if the audience didn't see it on camera.

[SassyPants]

First off, completely agree with the user said that contribute to the discussion in your own way or deal with it.

Unless someone posts something absolutely ridiculous (let's play a game..) or against the rules, no user has a right to ask them not to post their views. Some users had a huge problem with irrelevant threads being created, but now it ruffles their feathers when certain topics are discussed on the relevant thread too. Get over it. Either post to add your views in a civil way or wait till the discussion is over. There seem to be many FJ users who consider themselves 'above' the Duggar discussion, yet they visit threads and disrupt the topics for those who are interested in the family!

There is a separate forum for a reason, and nobody is forcing you to come here.

Rant over.

(Disclaimer: I'm not talking about a specific user, please don't take this as a personal attack. It's an attitude I've observed over some time. If you think I'm being rude, I don't want to come across as mean. I'm not going to fluff up my post, but just get to the point. You can't stop a discussion. Wait till it's over or steer it in another direction, is what I'm trying to say)

I'm not just talking about the posts above, btw. So don't tell me that the post didn't mean that.

Secondly, while People comments are one thing, I think the GMA section calling out Jill might have been more serious to TLC. There was a lot of backlash, and for a show that big to pick it up was quite serious.

I agree.

Plus if all you want to do is complain about the discussions being had, it's pretty easy not to visit FJ.

Life is way too short.

[Nowyn]

It just boggles my mind that tuition is $18K/year there. I'm in Canada and I paid about $5,400/yr here at one of the top universities in my province. I lived off campus,had some scholarships and worked full time and barely squeaked by without debt. I have no idea how that's even possible down in the states!

I graduated 2012 and then never used my degree because it wasn't where my heart lay (I have my BA in history but I'm a trucker) but I believe in finishing what I started. While I was attending uni there was tuition increases regularly, but nothing crazy like $18K a year!

Whole fee thing boggles me. I have to admit that my perception is colored but I do think that public schools should be free to give opportunitiesto more people. I'm Finnish and live in Helsinki. School is free with lunch from first grade until finishing in public schools. In high school you pay books and in university there is small fee that's less than 200 euros. There is very few private schools and they are consired mostly less good than public schools especially at university level. They cost more but not more than few thousands.Living in Scandinavia has made me very pro free and universal healt care and schooling. There is some big downsides for Finland but that's one of the things I love.

[SassyPants]

Whole fee thing boggles me. I have to admit that my perception is colored but I do think that public schools should be free to give opportunitiesto more people. I'm Finnish and live in Helsinki. School is free with lunch from first grade until finishing in public schools. In high school you pay books and in university there is small fee that's less than 200 euros. There is very few private schools and they are consired mostly less good than public schools especially at university level. They cost more but not more than few thousands.Living in Scandinavia has made me very pro free and universal healt care and schooling. There is some big downsides for Finland but that's one of the things I love.

The Scandinavian countries are always touted as some of the best places to live. What are some of the downsides for Finland? I know it's cold and dark in winter, LOL!

[somanybooks]

I hope it's not against the rules to mention another site but PreviouslyTV has a thread going for the Special Delivery episode and there is a long-time OB-GYN posting regularly under the name "doodlebug" who has discussed at length all the issues relating to the delivery.

[Nowyn]

The Scandinavian countries are always touted as some of the best places to live. What are some of the downsides for Finland? I know it's cold and dark in winter, LOL!

People are generally more reserved and talking with strangers and crossing from acquaintance to friend is harder. I also have problem with some xenophobic and homophobic tendencies that are rampart among certaing groups and areas. I also dislike our current government which is driving our health care slowly down and lessening the progressivity of our taxation. Food is bit bland and it's expensive here. Also alcoholism and depression rates are sad. There is 5 alcoholists in my own family. I love Finland but often I don't like it. There isn't huge problems but I have never really felt at home here. I have lived in France and prefer it but my closests relatives love it here. So each to his own. I have been in US and I have to admit that being called sweetheart by cashier felt very weird. But I loved the museums, architecture, history and nature of East Coast (My best friend lives in DC, we went up to NYC and down to middle of Virginia coast.)

PS Is there Off Topic screen to use as I'm off it.

[SassyPants]

I hope it's not against the rules to mention another site but PreviouslyTV has a thread going for the Special Delivery episode and there is a long-time OB-GYN posting regularly under the name "doodlebug" who has discussed at length all the issues relating to the delivery.

Thanks for this prompt.

Anyone who has any doubt should go read that link and that poster's comments. The person is a licensed, practicing OBGYN. Of particular note is her medical opinion of: the likelihood of Izzy flipping at the last munite and the topic of internal exams...very interesting.

[Nowyn]

Thanks for this prompt.

Anyone who has any doubt should go read that link and that poster's comments. The person is a licensed, practicing OBGYN. Of particular note is her medical opinion of: the likelihood of Izzy flipping at the last munite and the topic of internal exams...very interesting.

I agree. Interesting stuff-

[SassyPants]

I agree. Interesting stuff-

I knew I wasn't crazy. It totally makes sense that due to limited (or no, if the exams were refused) internal exams during either her later prenatal course or after her membranes ruptured, and the total missing of a breech baby. I agree with the OBGYN- the baby was probably breech for weeks prior to delivery. No head pushing down on the cervix= a stalled labor, but if there are no exams, it's hard to gage actual cervical progress.

[pega127]

I'm sure this answer is buried in the thread; but I just don't have the energy to research it. So, does anyone remember the reason Jill gave for enduring 70 hours of labor before she decided to get to a hospital?

[Rescinded and Mended]

Thanks for this prompt.

Anyone who has any doubt should go read that link and that poster's comments. The person is a licensed, practicing OBGYN. Of particular note is her medical opinion of: the likelihood of Izzy flipping at the last munite and the topic of internal exams...very interesting.

I seem to remember reading Doodlebug's posts on TWOP. Her posts were always interesting, very informative stuff about her time as an Ob/Gyn.

(Did she ever post here? I think I remember her from TWOP, but maybe it was FJ...)

[SassyPants]

I'm sure this answer is buried in the thread; but I just don't have the energy to research it. So, does anyone remember the reason Jill gave for enduring 70 hours of labor before she decided to get to a hospital?

I think she went to the hospital about 48 hours after her membranes ruptures- and I think the mec staining is the reason she decided to go in-

[pega127]

I think she went to the hospital about 48 hours after her membranes ruptures- and I think the mec staining is the reason she decided to go in-

Thank you. However, I thought she saw the stain and still didn' go right away (even though she said it is a sign the baby could be in distress).

[Nowyn]

I think she went to the hospital about 48 hours after her membranes ruptures- and I think the mec staining is the reason she decided to go in-

Both articles and VSE agree that this was the case. She didn't give a reason for declaining pit when she got to hospital. Being offered pit was only mentioned in articles.

I don't know about internal exams or if she was dilated. But I can't believe that Izzy was ever engaged. It's nice that someone with medical degree agree. Like Doodlebug wrote babies are not acrobats. That would mean that there probably wasn't many internal exams as it would have been most likely discovered. I'm not qulified to make any real assesments and would never do more than speculate without having a degree and being able actually examine subject. But likeliness of this being case is so much more likely than Izzy flipping that I can't believe Jill is correct on that point. It's remotely possible.

[jarona]

Jesus his head is huge. Jill would've probably have to have been sewn up.

I thought the same thing but she had a section--right? . My oldest was a ten-pounder. I had a vag birth and was torn from one end to the other. It took longer to sew me up than it did to give birth--and I ended up in the hospital for 8 days. Honest to god, my labor was nothing compared to how long it took my "lady" area to heal. But from things like that come greatness--my next two deliveries were a drop in the bucket!

This whole "drama" about Jill giving birth. It was nothing spectacular. Women have emergency sections all the time. I'm just kind of tired at this family basically living for the camera. I mean, at 3:45 in the morning to have to start filming yourself after you start spotting mec?? I would be thinking of other things.

[SassyPants]

Both articles and VSE agree that this was the case. She didn't give a reason for declaining pit when she got to hospital. Being offered pit was only mentioned in articles.

I don't know about internal exams or if she was dilated. But I can't believe that Izzy was ever engaged. It's nice that someone with medical degree agree. Like Doodlebug wrote babies are not acrobats. That would mean that there probably wasn't many internal exams as it would have been most likely discovered. I'm not qulified to make any real assesments and would never do more than speculate without having a degree and being able actually examine subject. But likeliness of this being case is so much more likely than Izzy flipping that I can't believe Jill is correct on that point. It's remotely possible.

It sounds to me like Jill and Derick's initial plan was very hands off and let nature take its course, and by the time hands were actually placed on, after many hours in the hospital setting, Izzy was determined to be breech. Hands off was probably really easy for Jill as I'd imagine she would not be receptive to lots of poking and prodding, especially beyond her known MWs.

[Lucy H]

It just boggles my mind that tuition is $18K/year there. I'm in Canada and I paid about $5,400/yr here at one of the top universities in my province. I lived off campus,had some scholarships and worked full time and barely squeaked by without debt. I have no idea how that's even possible down in the states!

I graduated 2012 and then never used my degree because it wasn't where my heart lay (I have my BA in history but I'm a trucker) but I believe in finishing what I started. While I was attending uni there was tuition increases regularly, but nothing crazy like $18K a year!

No, tuition is not $18K per year. $18K per year is total cost including housing. In state tuition is around $8.5k per year.

[ClaraOswin]

I knew I wasn't crazy. It totally makes sense that due to limited (or no, if the exams were refused) internal exams during either her later prenatal course or after her membranes ruptured, and the total missing of a breech baby. I agree with the OBGYN- the baby was probably breech for weeks prior to delivery. No head pushing down on the cervix= a stalled labor, but if there are no exams, it's hard to gage actual cervical progress.

The thing is, you really don't need any internal exams to know which way the baby is facing. So SOMEONE had to have known the baby was breech. Jill, with her "training", should have known. Any ob/gyn would know. At the very least, wouldn't the doctors and nurses at the hospital check her belly when she arrived? Shouldn't that have known right then and there that the baby wasn't positioned correctly?

[SassyPants]

The thing is, you really don't need any internal exams to know which way the baby is facing. So SOMEONE had to have known the baby was breech. Jill, with her "training", should have known. Any ob/gyn would know. At the very least, wouldn't the doctors and nurses at the hospital check her belly when she arrived? Shouldn't that have known right then and there that the baby wasn't positioned correctly?

According to the OBGYN on the other site, if Jill refused assessment, no one is legally allowed to touch her. Now, why would go to the hospital and refuse to be assessed, doesn't make much sense, but then again, we are talking about people who lack common sense and who have made very few independent, adult decisions in their lives.