Derick, Jill, and Izzie

[SassyPants]

Did anyone notice in the Jill delivery episode they blur Jill's knees out when they're getting pedicures :roll:

YET, the man is working on her and the woman on Derick. Also, why wouldn't Jill wear some capris under her skirt? Hopefully her modest self had shorts on under that skirt.

[Rescinded and Mended]

Having personal expectations for a quality of discussion in a forum that always holds up to one's personal expectations is a lot like holding out for universal popularity. It ain't ever gonna happen, no matter how much anyone wants it.

Seems to me the only real choice is to add to the discussion in order to change things, or hold back/find other things to read because the interest is gone.

[Yoshimi]

Her timeline is messed up for sure.I do have a couple of questions...What are d cells and c cells? I don't remember reading that in the article? Or the part about the hike. I do remember seeing she went to get her nails done(Is that also when she went with Cathy?), got food and went to the chiropractor. They definitely excluded that from the VSE which leads me all the more to think she went to Venessa. Also did anybody catch when Derrick said they were going to call for reinforcements it was daylight out but Jana and co were shown leaving in the wee hours of the morning? Also why would they need reinforcements if the two midwives were there.I believe Jill planned on having an unassisted homebirth(which sounds illegal) and the midwives were there for show.

At the beginning of the episode when the midwives came over for a home inspection, Jill said her plan was to do most of the EARLY labor on her own with Derick. If she needs more support then they'll call Jana and her mom for reinforcement, again, she emphasized the EARLY labor part. She made it pretty clear that the midwives would be called once she got closer to hard labor. So IMO, I really don't think Jill was being deceitful there.

As far as TLC leaving out some stuff Jill said she did after her water broke, it could be as simple as them not having any footage to show. It didn't look like Jill allowed any of the usual 19 Kids camera crew at her birth. All of the footage we did see were from a home cam; my bet is that she asked one of her sisters (Jana?) to film her birth instead. That would also explain why Jill's delivery seemed less intrusive than the previous births that were on the show.

[SassyPants]

At the beginning of the episode when the midwives came over for a home inspection, Jill said her plan was to do most of the EARLY labor on her own with Derick. If she needs more support then they'll call Jana and her mom for reinforcement, again, she emphasized the EARLY labor part. She made it pretty clear that the midwives would be called once she got closer to hard labor. So IMO, I really don't think Jill was being deceitful there.

As far as TLC leaving out some stuff Jill said she did after her water broke, it could be as simple as them not having any footage to show. It didn't look like Jill allowed any of the usual 19 Kids camera crew at her birth. All of the footage we did see were from a home cam; my bet is that she asked one of her sisters (Jana?) to film her birth instead. That would also explain why Jill's delivery seemed less intrusive than the previous births that were on the show.

Yet Jill said she had contractions 1 minute apart for 20 hours...wouldn't that have been a medically appropriate time to get your MW (s) on scene to assess for progress? Were any MWs ever shown tending to Jill during the VSE? At what point during the 70 hour labor with 20 hours of contractions at 1 minute apart, did early labor end, IYO?

I'd say when things were not going as planned, Jill and Derick decided to forgo the TLC cameras.

[Arrowoftruth]

At the beginning of the episode when the midwives came over for a home inspection, Jill said her plan was to do most of the EARLY labor on her own with Derick. If she needs more support then they'll call Jana and her mom for reinforcement, again, she emphasized the EARLY labor part. She made it pretty clear that the midwives would be called once she got closer to hard labor. So IMO, I really don't think Jill was being deceitful there.

As far as TLC leaving out some stuff Jill said she did after her water broke, it could be as simple as them not having any footage to show. It didn't look like Jill allowed any of the usual 19 Kids camera crew at her birth. All of the footage we did see were from a home cam; my bet is that she asked one of her sisters (Jana?) to film her birth instead. That would also explain why Jill's delivery seemed less intrusive than the previous births that were on the show.

Oh okay I must've missed the early part. But even after the 24 hours I would've called the professional midwives to make sure everything is okay. It seemed like she never called them.

[SassyPants]

[quote=

Oh okay I must've missed the early part. But even after the 24 hours I would've called the professional midwives to make sure everything is okay. It seemed like she never called them.

Clipped.

ITA-

[Mama Mia]

Maybe 70 hours from the first sign of anything to Izzie's birth. "Pre" labor so to speak can last days. I think Jill has mislead folks into believing active labor was 70 hours.

Since I don't want to do the whole quote stream, and am apparently a masochist:

No , she hasn't. She said, clearly, that labor was intermittent, with periods of hard, back to back contractions -- and periods where they slowed down in intensity and spacing. That's what she said. Out of her mouth.

It's people on this board who keep insisting she was in transition like labor for 70 hours. Because, oh, the dramas of it all! Bad Jill!

Also, I find it really curious that none of the experts on this thread have bothered to mention a couple of key, well known, points :

1 -- it is very common, and not at all some weird, super crunchy, alternative thing for women to go do a lot of walking to try to get their labor going or established - because when the water breaks , labor does not always start immediately - it can take 12 to 24 hours.

2-- As I'm also sure these experts are aware - just because the amniotic sack ruptures - that does NOT mean that every drop of fluid comes gushing out and then the baby is in a completely empty uterus. The baby, almost certainly, has fluid still around him. There is almost always a lot of trickling and seepage of fluid that continues throughout labor. It's not the movies, and it's not, generally, the same, at all, as when the bag of waters is artificially broken and " pops" with a gush . So she certainly, easily, could have amniotic fluid that was clear at first, and then faint meconium many hours later.

3-- I can not understand the posters here who are on about some sort of cover- up because Jill didn't choose to describe - or - show - when she got internal exams, how dilated she was at each point,. If it was straight amniotic fluid, or was there bloody show first, and how much was mucus and how much was blood and how much was maybe regular vaginal fluid -- seriously WTF.

My daughter, and her daughter, almost died because some hideous bitch of an OB - at a hospital - refused to believe she was leaking fluid, or to care about or treat

The extremely clear signs of a dangerous infection that eventually set in . So , believe me, I am not going at this from the perspective of all natural, all the time, no matter what.

But it is just ridiculous to insist Jill made all of these mistakes when there is zero evidence she didn't follow a perfectly rational birth plan, and fall to her back- up plans as appropriate.

All the drama is just that. Drama.

[HermioneSparrow]

At last, first pics of Izzy with Michelle.

[attachment=0]thumb-img-1511-1024-photogallery.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=1]thumb-img-1512-1024-photogallery.jpg[/attachment]

More baby photos at the Dillard's website: dillardfamily.com/photo-album

She actually looks warm and normal... Because he's Izzy and he even gets the family crib. Haven't seen her even close to the M'kids! :?

[Yoshimi]

YET, the man is working on her and the woman on Derick. Also, why wouldn't Jill wear some capris under her skirt? Hopefully her modest self had shorts on under that skirt.

Here's a photo where you can see Jill's knees in all their naked glory.

So the question remains, who decided to blur out her knees in the episode? I don't think it was Jill. If she was that sensitive about covering up, she could have EASILY pushed her skirt a few inches lower, but the fact that she didn't tells me she didn't care if her knees were showing . I think it was the editors who decided to blur out her knees, either out of old habits or to be snarky about the Duggars' modesty rules.

[SassyPants]

Since I don't want to do the whole quote stream, and am apparently a masochist:

No , she hasn't. She said, clearly, that labor was intermittent, with periods of hard, back to back contractions -- and periods where they slowed down in intensity and spacing. That's what she said. Out of her mouth.

It's people on this board who keep insisting she was in transition like labor for 70 hours. Because, oh, the dramas of it all! Bad Jill!

Also, I find it really curious that none of the experts on this thread have bothered to mention a couple of key, well known, points :

1 -- it is very common, and not at all some weird, super crunchy, alternative thing for women to go do a lot of walking to try to get their labor going or established - because when the water breaks , labor does not always start immediately - it can take 12 to 24 hours.

2-- As I'm also sure these experts are aware - just because the amniotic sack ruptures - that does NOT mean that every drop of fluid comes gushing out and then the baby is in a completely empty uterus. The baby, almost certainly, has fluid still around him. There is almost always a lot of trickling and seepage of fluid that continues throughout labor. It's not the movies, and it's not, generally, the same, at all, as when the bag of waters is artificially broken and " pops" with a gush . So she certainly, easily, could have amniotic fluid that was clear at first, and then faint meconium many hours later.

3-- I can not understand the posters here who are on about some sort of cover- up because Jill didn't choose to describe - or - show - when she got internal exams, how dilated she was at each point,. If it was straight amniotic fluid, or was there bloody show first, and how much was mucus and how much was blood and how much was maybe regular vaginal fluid -- seriously WTF.

My daughter, and her daughter, almost died because some hideous bitch of an OB - at a hospital - refused to believe she was leaking fluid, or to care about or treat

The extremely clear signs of a dangerous infection that eventually set in . So , believe me, I am not going at this from the perspective of all natural, all the time, no matter what.

But it is just ridiculous to insist Jill made all of these mistakes when there is zero evidence she didn't follow a perfectly rational birth plan, and fall to her back- up plans as appropriate.

All the drama is just that. Drama.

Can you post a link to a photo or verbal/video quote /evidence of when the MWs were on scene during those first 48 hours of labor after Jill's membranes had ruptured and before she and Derick headed to the hospital- thanks.

[mountfirefly]

Feeding issues are just the worst. My worst day was when one of mine wouldn't eat and I was so anxious about it that I called the pedi. The nurse there said if I couldn't get him to eat he would have to be readmitted to the hospital (it was NOWHERE near that point yet). Pretty much every NICU mom's biggest post-NICU fear is hospital re-admittance. Ugh.

So glad to hear your newest little one has a healthy heart. Did your little girl's oral aversion just stay with bottles or was it solids too? Thank goodness by the time mine got onto solids their reflux had let up a lot so it was just bottles they refused.

Ugh I can imagine -- we were only in the hospital three weeks and that was traumatizing enough, I can't imagine tons of time in the NICU :( It sounds like your little ones are doing well now though, I'm so glad!

It was solids too for her, we ended up having to see a speech therapist who specialized in infant feeding issues for about six months once we got the "back to the hospital" threat. She was released at eleven months and is doing great now :cracking-up: although she'll probably always be petite. (Almost two and wearing six month onesies, ha)

[halcionne]

Since I don't want to do the whole quote stream, and am apparently a masochist:

No , she hasn't. She said, clearly, that labor was intermittent, with periods of hard, back to back contractions -- and periods where they slowed down in intensity and spacing. That's what she said. Out of her mouth.

It's people on this board who keep insisting she was in transition like labor for 70 hours. Because, oh, the dramas of it all! Bad Jill!

Also, I find it really curious that none of the experts on this thread have bothered to mention a couple of key, well known, points :

1 -- it is very common, and not at all some weird, super crunchy, alternative thing for women to go do a lot of walking to try to get their labor going or established - because when the water breaks , labor does not always start immediately - it can take 12 to 24 hours.

2-- As I'm also sure these experts are aware - just because the amniotic sack ruptures - that does NOT mean that every drop of fluid comes gushing out and then the baby is in a completely empty uterus. The baby, almost certainly, has fluid still around him. There is almost always a lot of trickling and seepage of fluid that continues throughout labor. It's not the movies, and it's not, generally, the same, at all, as when the bag of waters is artificially broken and " pops" with a gush . So she certainly, easily, could have amniotic fluid that was clear at first, and then faint meconium many hours later.

3-- I can not understand the posters here who are on about some sort of cover- up because Jill didn't choose to describe - or - show - when she got internal exams, how dilated she was at each point,. If it was straight amniotic fluid, or was there bloody show first, and how much was mucus and how much was blood and how much was maybe regular vaginal fluid -- seriously WTF.

My daughter, and her daughter, almost died because some hideous bitch of an OB - at a hospital - refused to believe she was leaking fluid, or to care about or treat

The extremely clear signs of a dangerous infection that eventually set in . So , believe me, I am not going at this from the perspective of all natural, all the time, no matter what.

But it is just ridiculous to insist Jill made all of these mistakes when there is zero evidence she didn't follow a perfectly rational birth plan, and fall to her back- up plans as appropriate.

All the drama is just that. Drama.

I appreciate your point of view. I am possibly a little bit overinvested in all of this for reasons I don't understand, and I do like to see comments from more rational members. :)

It's worth remembering that TLC shows what they want. Who knows how they decide what footage to air. If some Duggar was filming on a camcorder, that film might be too dark or wobbly to be of any use for the show.

I'm not sure what I'm trying to say with this post, but I'm glad you're here, Mama Mia. I strongly agree with the previous poster who said if members want to change the topic, then say something new. Everyone's posts have an impact on where the conversation goes.

[VGL]

Can you post a link to a photo or verbal/video quote /evidence of when the MWs were on scene during those first 48 hours of labor after Jill's membranes had ruptured and before she and Derick headed to the hospital- thanks.

I thought one of her midwives was there when you hear Michelle saying that it smells good because of all the oils.

[ClaraOswin]

I watched the L&D part of the episode and was able to identify Joy Coonfield, who is a licensed lay midwife. They named Rachel Woad as a student (lay) midwife, and we can match Dr. Hill to internet photos, too. There's still an unidentified player in this segment though, and I would like to be able to name her. She had dark hair, strong nose and cheekbones, iirc, and black scrubs with a hot pink modesty panel. Does anyone know who that woman was? Teresa Fedosky was my guess, but I'm not sure.

I think it was Debbie Query...who I believe is a midwife. Though don't quote me on that.

[Bethella]

I think it was Debbie Query...who I believe is a midwife. Though don't quote me on that.

Debbie is an apprentice still. Her supervisors are Joy Coonfield and Lucy Ferguson.

[lascuba]

Ok, look. The People article was a mess and considering their history it's safe to assume that the writer of that article got creative with their word usage.

The birth special? Heavily edited, obviously, with some important details left out. I agree with the poster who said it looks like the TLC crew wasn't there and they relied on footage from a home camera. And that's absolutely fine. I've never been in labor but chances are good I wouldn't want my contraction face broadcast on national television, and as obnoxious as these people are they have that right--they don't owe viewers such intimate views of them, particularly vaginal exams or even mentions of dilation--come on now. I like gory details as much as the next person, but they're not wrong for not providing them.

As with most everything, things weren't as rosy as the family describes nor as sinister as the some of the conclusions people have jumped to. For all the unnecessary risks she took and the drama of the People article, it doesn't look like Jill and the baby were ever in imminent danger. But Jill did take a LOT of risks, and it's completely absurd to say that her choices were at all rational or reasonable. The length of time she went with ruptured membranes before agreeing to the c-section proves that, and the fact that things didn't go badly is due to pure dumb luck. Stop giving Jill any credit on that score.

[SassyPants]

Ok, look. The People article was a mess and considering their history it's safe to assume that the writer of that article got creative with their word usage.

The birth special? Heavily edited, obviously, with some important details left out. I agree with the poster who said it looks like the TLC crew wasn't there and they relied on footage from a home camera. And that's absolutely fine. I've never been in labor but chances are good I wouldn't want my contraction face broadcast on national television, and as obnoxious as these people are they have that right--they don't owe viewers such intimate views of them, particularly vaginal exams or even mentions of dilation--come on now. I like gory details as much as the next person, but they're not wrong for not providing them.

As with most everything, things weren't as rosy as the family describes nor as sinister as the some of the conclusions people have jumped to. For all the unnecessary risks she took and the drama of the People article, it doesn't look like Jill and the baby were ever in imminent danger. But Jill did take a LOT of risks, and it's completely absurd to say that her choices were at all rational or reasonable. The length of time she went with ruptured membranes before agreeing to the c-section proves that, and the fact that things didn't go badly is due to pure dumb luck. Stop giving Jill any credit on that score.

See, I think if you want privacy, you do not blab about any of the details.

You have a nice, scrubbed picture of Dad, mom and swaddled baby announcing that a healthy baby was born, when s/he was born and his/er name. Perhaps vital stats might be included and leave out all the rest.

IMO, you open yourself up for questioning when you change your story, release info and a timeline that just is impossible to be true or factual.

[FakePigtails]

Ok, look. The People article was a mess and considering their history it's safe to assume that the writer of that article got creative with their word usage.

The birth special? Heavily edited, obviously, with some important details left out. I agree with the poster who said it looks like the TLC crew wasn't there and they relied on footage from a home camera. And that's absolutely fine. I've never been in labor but chances are good I wouldn't want my contraction face broadcast on national television, and as obnoxious as these people are they have that right--they don't owe viewers such intimate views of them, particularly vaginal exams or even mentions of dilation--come on now. I like gory details as much as the next person, but they're not wrong for not providing them.

As with most everything, things weren't as rosy as the family describes nor as sinister as the some of the conclusions people have jumped to. For all the unnecessary risks she took and the drama of the People article, it doesn't look like Jill and the baby were ever in imminent danger. But Jill did take a LOT of risks, and it's completely absurd to say that her choices were at all rational or reasonable. The length of time she went with ruptured membranes before agreeing to the c-section proves that, and the fact that things didn't go badly is due to pure dumb luck. Stop giving Jill any credit on that score.

Amen to all of this.

[grandmadugger]

I wonder if the reason we didn't see the MWs on Jill's VSE is because they said, "NOPE do not show us. She didn't listen to a word we said and we want no part of this!"

[Coco]

See, I think if you want privacy, you do not blab about any of the details.

You have a nice, scrubbed picture of Dad, mom and swaddled baby announcing that a healthy baby was born, when s/he was born and his/er name. Perhaps vital stats might be included and leave out all the rest.

IMO, you open yourself up for questioning when you change your story, release info and a timeline that just is impossible to be true or factual.

i can't believe i'm defending Jill, but as far as having to give a story, she was kind of backed in a corner by her family's business. (selling themselves) :lol:

But they are dodgey as eff and screwed with the timeline. Part of that is inherent in their religious belief system and culture - trying to go against what all the heathens believe and do. Just knowing details about Venessa's messed up work history proves that they're trying to hide things.

So the story Jill had to give was layers of deception, really. She probably had to brainstorm with Derick about what details would be okay to tell since they knew their choices weren't going to be acceptable to the mainstream viewer.

[Coco]

At the beginning of the episode when the midwives came over for a home inspection, Jill said her plan was to do most of the EARLY labor on her own with Derick. If she needs more support then they'll call Jana and her mom for reinforcement, again, she emphasized the EARLY labor part. She made it pretty clear that the midwives would be called once she got closer to hard labor. So IMO, I really don't think Jill was being deceitful there.

As far as TLC leaving out some stuff Jill said she did after her water broke, it could be as simple as them not having any footage to show. It didn't look like Jill allowed any of the usual 19 Kids camera crew at her birth. All of the footage we did see were from a home cam; my bet is that she asked one of her sisters (Jana?) to film her birth instead. That would also explain why Jill's delivery seemed less intrusive than the previous births that were on the show.

It's so weird that it's already over and talked to pieces. The way i imagined it would be -- like one of those beautiful "perfect" homebirth videos on youtube, just didn't happen. I haven't watched any since about 5 years ago but just the memories of them, that's what i figured would happen for perfect Jill. It's so easy to envy moms who seemed to have everything go right. I feel so sorry for Jill. All the snark i threw out, wishing she'd freak out, rip the dumb prayer cards and toss them at Derick; i changed my mind, it's sad. It just shows how real life is impossible to control.

[sense and nonsense]

First off, completely agree with the user said that contribute to the discussion in your own way or deal with it.

Unless someone posts something absolutely ridiculous (let's play a game..) or against the rules, no user has a right to ask them not to post their views. Some users had a huge problem with irrelevant threads being created, but now it ruffles their feathers when certain topics are discussed on the relevant thread too. Get over it. Either post to add your views in a civil way or wait till the discussion is over. There seem to be many FJ users who consider themselves 'above' the Duggar discussion, yet they visit threads and disrupt the topics for those who are interested in the family!

There is a separate forum for a reason, and nobody is forcing you to come here.

Rant over.

(Disclaimer: I'm not talking about a specific user, please don't take this as a personal attack. It's an attitude I've observed over some time. If you think I'm being rude, I don't want to come across as mean. I'm not going to fluff up my post, but just get to the point. You can't stop a discussion. Wait till it's over or steer it in another direction, is what I'm trying to say)

I'm not just talking about the posts above, btw. So don't tell me that the post didn't mean that.

Secondly, while People comments are one thing, I think the GMA section calling out Jill might have been more serious to TLC. There was a lot of backlash, and for a show that big to pick it up was quite serious.

[OkToBeTakei]

First off, completely agree with the user said that contribute to the discussion in your own way or deal with it.

Unless someone posts something absolutely ridiculous (let's play a game..) or against the rules, no user has a right to ask them not to post their views. Some users had a huge problem with irrelevant threads being created, but now it ruffles their feathers when certain topics are discussed on the relevant thread too. Get over it. Either post to add your views in a civil way or wait till the discussion is over. There seem to be many FJ users who consider themselves 'above' the Duggar discussion, yet they visit threads and disrupt the topics for those who are interested in the family!

There is a separate forum for a reason, and nobody is forcing you to come here.

Rant over.

(Disclaimer: I'm not talking about a specific user, please don't take this as a personal attack. It's an attitude I've observed over some time. If you think I'm being rude, I don't want to come across as mean. I'm not going to fluff up my post, but just get to the point. You can't stop a discussion. Wait till it's over or steer it in another direction, is what I'm trying to say)

I'm not just talking about the posts above, btw. So don't tell me that the post didn't mean that.

Secondly, while People comments are one thing, I think the GMA section calling out Jill might have been more serious to TLC. There was a lot of backlash, and for a show that big to pick it up was quite serious.

Well no dear. That's not the way it works :lol: Nobody is trying to stop a discussion, merely just pointing out they disagree with other's rather opinions.

Everybody is entitled to their own particular ludicrous opinion unfortunately they have to deal with that being challenged, whinged about, picked apart, possibly laughed at and definitely commented on.

So no, it's not because it ruffles feathers, or people are above the Duggars (OH let me see, could be the reason a lot of people joined here........duh!) It's mainly because when folks decide to post their conspiracy/imaginary/drama laden nit pickingly detailed account there are others who disagree and that is kind of the point of FJ. That is not disrupting a thread, that is called debate. Also to point out that nobody has asked anybody to stop posting......except you. Who appear to not want your snark interrupted :naughty:

[OkToBeTakei]

Since I don't want to do the whole quote stream, and am apparently a masochist:

No , she hasn't. She said, clearly, that labor was intermittent, with periods of hard, back to back contractions -- and periods where they slowed down in intensity and spacing. That's what she said. Out of her mouth.

It's people on this board who keep insisting she was in transition like labor for 70 hours. Because, oh, the dramas of it all! Bad Jill!

Also, I find it really curious that none of the experts on this thread have bothered to mention a couple of key, well known, points :

1 -- it is very common, and not at all some weird, super crunchy, alternative thing for women to go do a lot of walking to try to get their labor going or established - because when the water breaks , labor does not always start immediately - it can take 12 to 24 hours.

2-- As I'm also sure these experts are aware - just because the amniotic sack ruptures - that does NOT mean that every drop of fluid comes gushing out and then the baby is in a completely empty uterus. The baby, almost certainly, has fluid still around him. There is almost always a lot of trickling and seepage of fluid that continues throughout labor. It's not the movies, and it's not, generally, the same, at all, as when the bag of waters is artificially broken and " pops" with a gush . So she certainly, easily, could have amniotic fluid that was clear at first, and then faint meconium many hours later.

3-- I can not understand the posters here who are on about some sort of cover- up because Jill didn't choose to describe - or - show - when she got internal exams, how dilated she was at each point,. If it was straight amniotic fluid, or was there bloody show first, and how much was mucus and how much was blood and how much was maybe regular vaginal fluid -- seriously WTF.

My daughter, and her daughter, almost died because some hideous bitch of an OB - at a hospital - refused to believe she was leaking fluid, or to care about or treat

The extremely clear signs of a dangerous infection that eventually set in . So , believe me, I am not going at this from the perspective of all natural, all the time, no matter what.

But it is just ridiculous to insist Jill made all of these mistakes when there is zero evidence she didn't follow a perfectly rational birth plan, and fall to her back- up plans as appropriate.

All the drama is just that. Drama.

:lol: Don't try and be sensible or rational.

[Nowyn]

Firstly surry about teminology. C as in C section. I have no idea if d cells is used in English for decels. Trying to figure it at 2AM wasn't really effective.

Since I don't want to do the whole quote stream, and am apparently a masochist:

No , she hasn't. She said, clearly, that labor was intermittent, with periods of hard, back to back contractions -- and periods where they slowed down in intensity and spacing. That's what she said. Out of her mouth.

It's people on this board who keep insisting she was in transition like labor for 70 hours. Because, oh, the dramas of it all! Bad Jill!

Also, I find it really curious that none of the experts on this thread have bothered to mention a couple of key, well known, points :

1 -- it is very common, and not at all some weird, super crunchy, alternative thing for women to go do a lot of walking to try to get their labor going or established - because when the water breaks , labor does not always start immediately - it can take 12 to 24 hours.

2-- As I'm also sure these experts are aware - just because the amniotic sack ruptures - that does NOT mean that every drop of fluid comes gushing out and then the baby is in a completely empty uterus. The baby, almost certainly, has fluid still around him. There is almost always a lot of trickling and seepage of fluid that continues throughout labor. It's not the movies, and it's not, generally, the same, at all, as when the bag of waters is artificially broken and " pops" with a gush . So she certainly, easily, could have amniotic fluid that was clear at first, and then faint meconium many hours later.

3-- I can not understand the posters here who are on about some sort of cover- up because Jill didn't choose to describe - or - show - when she got internal exams, how dilated she was at each point,. If it was straight amniotic fluid, or was there bloody show first, and how much was mucus and how much was blood and how much was maybe regular vaginal fluid -- seriously WTF.

My daughter, and her daughter, almost died because some hideous bitch of an OB - at a hospital - refused to believe she was leaking fluid, or to care about or treat

The extremely clear signs of a dangerous infection that eventually set in . So , believe me, I am not going at this from the perspective of all natural, all the time, no matter what.

But it is just ridiculous to insist Jill made all of these mistakes when there is zero evidence she didn't follow a perfectly rational birth plan, and fall to her back- up plans as appropriate.

All the drama is just that. Drama.

I'm not insisting that she was in active labour for 70 hours. What she says about it sounds probable but 70 hours PROM has nothing to do with active labour. It's the infection risk I'm worried at most and sings of distress (meconium) with what is long birth even if it's intermittent. Also I haven't seen anyone claming that just because amniotic sac ruptures she is completely dry that second. But after over 48 hours of labour and some 53 after ROM (if i counted correctly) it's gonna be pretty dry. Claim seems to be that Izzy flipped after arriving to hospital.

Evidence for Jill's mistakes is her words. Prolonged PROM, meconium and GBS+ together is problem. I don't think that 48 hours PROM is too much but over it is. And that's if there is no other compounding factors. Meconium in itself would be ok, though it's reason to move to hospital and GBS+ when treated would be ok alone too. But not together. Every new thing that might be indicator of problems raises the probability that something is wrong exponentially.