Derick, Jill, and Izzie

[SassyPants]

Actually, now that I think about it, don't you think they probably limited internal exams *because* her water had broken already and they didn't want to introduce infection? In fact I'm sure that's exactly why you didn't see any mention of it.

In the natural birth world it's very common not to focus on dilation and effacement and rely on the mother's body to tell her when to push.

Limited is not the same as NO exam- I am sure somewhere during that 70 hour labor, 20 of which with contractions 1 min apart, per Jill, that she had an exam.

[ohplease]

Limited is not the same as NO exam- I am sure somewhere during that 70 hour labor, 20 of which with contractions 1 min apart, per Jill, that she had an exam.

Yeah, of course. But it wouldn't be like the typical hospital birth where they are checking you once an hour. And again, we're talking about 10 minutes of actual coverage...whether you think that is by design or not, the fact that at some point she was maybe 4 cm dilated probably wasn't newsworthy. In fact, I don't think dilation was discussed in Anna's birth episodes either except to say that she was complete and pushing.

[Shadoewolf]

Two things.....

First, when the People article came out, FJers were out in droves expressing outrage Jill could have been so stupid and risking both her and baby Izzie's lives. Now we've seen the special and suddenly it wasn't nearly as bad as People said. As I said before, I think its somewhere in the middle but I do maintain the thought that the Special had a lot of additional editing once the People article came out. Even if just in the form of protecting the "professionals" Jill used prior to heading to the hospital.

But if we're going on my conspiracy theories....

-The Pedicure that was shown...was that the one People said she went for later in the day after her water broke and she didn't tell anyone?

-Wouldn't the alleged Chiro visit be a good "teaching" moment to televise? Like Jill using it as a selling point to her low-intervention moms "being in good alignment helps" etc? But we don't see/hear ANYTHING about that on the special. Unless the Dr who did her adjustment read the People article and was PISSED because she didn't inform him/her that her water had ruptured X number of hours earlier?

-I caught ONE hint of Jill's GBS+ IV line during the special, and it was really obvious they were trying to keep it out of frame at all times. I don't understand the point of hiding it, so long as it was placed legally... its not like GBS+ is a huge deal. Maybe it wasn't done legally and again, the person doing it didn't want to be identified?

-JB goes running in (in his jammies) and says oh we have to pray for Jill they're doing an EMERGENCY C-section. I find it weird People mentions the decels in the heart rate but the Special portrays it as just a normal thing because now Izzie is transverse. Even with ROM and transverse lie, from what I know (and that's limited!) that's not an excuse for an EMERGENCY C-section.. decels certainly would be. Otherwise wouldn't JB have said "hey guys Jill gave it her best shot but the baby flipped so its going to be a C-section. Lets all pray ok?" Not the frantic holy crap reaction we saw.

The special just rubbed me the wrong way, and it was all the delivery related stuff.

[Coco]

We've always said it would take something terrible happening for the Duggars to admit they make mistakes. But i don't think any of us want to actually see them get hurt.

What are the leghumpers saying about all this in the comments?

[FakePigtails]

Another thing is that if her labor was dramatic/complicated (which it seems it was) and hadn't involved any bad decisions on J&D's parts, wouldn't TLC have been all over that? They're all about drama - just look at them re-airing Michelle's last pregnancies twice in one week and showing Josie's seizure.

So that leaves it as either Jill didn't actually want to be filmed during labor or changed her mind about the film being aired (totally reasonable, most wouldn't want their most stressful and painful moments aired) or TLC (possibly along with J&D) realized from the reaction to the People article that airing a relatively boring labor was more in their interests than whatever actually happened that may have been more dramatic for viewers but also turned off those who would see how idiotic some of the decisions were.

[SassyPants]

Another thing is that if her labor was dramatic/complicated (which it seems it was) and hadn't involved any bad decisions on J&D's parts, wouldn't TLC have been all over that? They're all about drama - just look at them re-airing Michelle's last pregnancies twice in one week and showing Josie's seizure.

So that leaves it as either Jill didn't actually want to be filmed during labor or changed her mind about the film being aired (totally reasonable, most wouldn't want their most stressful and painful moments aired) or TLC (possibly along with J&D) realized from the reaction to the People article that airing a relatively boring labor was more in their interests than whatever actually happened that may have been more dramatic for viewers but also turned off those who would see how idiotic some of the decisions were.

I agree. I feel sorry for Jill and Derick because it was clear that neither one of them understood the picture they were painting with their words and the People magazine article. I think it was telling that beyond Jill's words, there was never again any mention of Izzy having HR drops, which many times is an indication of fetal distress. Hr drops and mec staining is more indicative of fetal distress.

Jill and Derick come off as irresponsible, based on their own words and actions. As a person who has had some training in MW, Jill also comes off as ignorant. The medical professionals by law have to remain mute, so no clarification could be given.

We are left with the Dillards' words and a scant few minutes of a disjointed VSE that did not mirror the Diilards' account.

[Fascinated]

Shadoewolf, I was thinking exactly the same thing reading through this thread. The days surrounding Izzy's birth were filled with rampant speculation and criticism of Jill and Derick's actions by many FJers. Now, suddenly, people are being lambasted for doing the same thing.

We will likely never know the real truth but I definitely think the Duggars have attempted major damage control in light of the criticism heaped on them. But, perhaps these topics have been belaboured ( :lol: ) enough at this point? Seems like we're going round in circles. I'm quite sure most people here do not trust anything the Duggars say, and most of us probably feel that Jill is portraying the birth in a more positive light. All's well that ends well, yes?

[SassyPants]

Shadoewolf, I was thinking exactly the same thing reading through this thread. The days surrounding Izzy's birth were filled with rampant speculation and criticism of Jill and Derick's actions by many FJers. Now, suddenly, people are being lambasted for doing the same thing.

We will likely never know the real truth but I definitely think the Duggars have attempted major damage control in light of the criticism heaped on them. But, perhaps these topics have been belaboured ( :lol: ) enough at this point? Seems like we're going round in circles. I'm quite sure most people here do not trust anything the Duggars say, and most of us probably feel that Jill is portraying the birth in a more positive light. All's well that ends well, yes?

I think some have concerns that others will take Jill's words as some sort of authority (she is fundie royalty + has trumped up skills reported via the media) on all things pregnancy and childbirth related. I can see how the story could be construed as dangerous for other fundie females.

As a professional, that is my concern. Her story has way too many holes and inconsistencies to be considered truthful-

[lascuba]

Two things.....

First, when the People article came out, FJers were out in droves expressing outrage Jill could have been so stupid and risking both her and baby Izzie's lives. Now we've seen the special and suddenly it wasn't nearly as bad as People said. As I said before, I think its somewhere in the middle but I do maintain the thought that the Special had a lot of additional editing once the People article came out. Even if just in the form of protecting the "professionals" Jill used prior to heading to the hospital.

But if we're going on my conspiracy theories....

-The Pedicure that was shown...was that the one People said she went for later in the day after her water broke and she didn't tell anyone?

-Wouldn't the alleged Chiro visit be a good "teaching" moment to televise? Like Jill using it as a selling point to her low-intervention moms "being in good alignment helps" etc? But we don't see/hear ANYTHING about that on the special. Unless the Dr who did her adjustment read the People article and was PISSED because she didn't inform him/her that her water had ruptured X number of hours earlier?

-I caught ONE hint of Jill's GBS+ IV line during the special, and it was really obvious they were trying to keep it out of frame at all times. I don't understand the point of hiding it, so long as it was placed legally... its not like GBS+ is a huge deal. Maybe it wasn't done legally and again, the person doing it didn't want to be identified?

-JB goes running in (in his jammies) and says oh we have to pray for Jill they're doing an EMERGENCY C-section. I find it weird People mentions the decels in the heart rate but the Special portrays it as just a normal thing because now Izzie is transverse. Even with ROM and transverse lie, from what I know (and that's limited!) that's not an excuse for an EMERGENCY C-section.. decels certainly would be. Otherwise wouldn't JB have said "hey guys Jill gave it her best shot but the baby flipped so its going to be a C-section. Lets all pray ok?" Not the frantic holy crap reaction we saw.

The special just rubbed me the wrong way, and it was all the delivery related stuff.

A lot of the criticism after the People article was because she attempted a home birth knowing she was GBS positive--symptons of infection are often super subtle in newborns. It takes a lot of training to recognize them and chances are good that a midwife who only does homebirths/independent birth center births doesn't have the experience to spot those signs. Also, the fact that they never mentioned iv antibiotics at home even though we saw that picture with the iv line showing implies to me that the midwife wasn't legally allowed to place iv's, though iirc people here have sad that it's generally legal in Arkansas for homebirth midwives to put in iv's.

[EmmieJ]

JD is cop because he got elected to some part-time post and buys his own uniform and can get some training if he wants.

He's the Duggar version of Dwight Schrute from The Office.

[SassyPants]

He's the Duggar version of Dwight Schrute from The Office.

Yes!

[karen77]

Actually, now that I think about it, don't you think they probably limited internal exams *because* her water had broken already and they didn't want to introduce infection? In fact I'm sure that's exactly why you didn't see any mention of it.

In the natural birth world it's very common not to focus on dilation and effacement and rely on the mother's body to tell her when to push.

They don't check you as often when your water breaks, but they do still check here and there...because of the infection issue.

[Fascinated]

I think some have concerns that others will take Jill's words as some sort of authority (she is fundie royalty + has trumped up skills reported via the media) on all things pregnancy and childbirth related. I can see how the story could be construed as dangerous for other fundie females.

As a professional, that is my concern. Her story has way too many holes and inconsistencies to be considered truthful-

I absolutely share those concerns.

[apandaaries]

I absolutely share those concerns.

Exactly. Far too many people view these idiots as role models, and they definitely position themselves as such.

The meconium alone would be cause to head over to the hospital with the best NICU in the area, and NOT a moment to try to just to keep laboring at home. What they are promoting through their actions is dangerous.

[halcionne]

I watched the L&D part of the episode and was able to identify Joy Coonfield, who is a licensed lay midwife. They named Rachel Woad as a student (lay) midwife, and we can match Dr. Hill to internet photos, too. There's still an unidentified player in this segment though, and I would like to be able to name her. She had dark hair, strong nose and cheekbones, iirc, and black scrubs with a hot pink modesty panel. Does anyone know who that woman was? Teresa Fedosky was my guess, but I'm not sure.

[Boogalou]

I think I now know why singsingsing left this forum.

What a pile of utter shite some posters spout.

I honestly cannot believe somebody actually typed out the words 'I believe People Magazine.' :lol: :lol: :lol:

I watched the birth special. Did anybody notice halfway through Kennedy's assassin popped up? He was right behind the astronaut pretending to be on the moon holding Obama's Muslim birth certificate!!! I tell you.

WHYYY did Singsing leave? Now I'm sad :( She was a nice voice of reason.

[Yoshimi]

At last, first pics of Izzy with Michelle.

More baby photos at the Dillard's website: dillardfamily.com/photo-album

[OkToBeTakei]

WHYYY did Singsing leave? Now I'm sad :( She was a nice voice of reason.

In her own words.

I've had some awesome discussions here, some of you here are truly insightful and hilarious, but the good is increasingly being drowned out by moronic bullshit like dumbass tabloid rumours, circle jerks and debates about whether Jill needs to comb her hair or Jessa stands with her legs too far apart. It's gotten to the point where (for me) the forum is basically unreadable. I know I'm not the only one who's thinking this but I'll be the one to say it.

She should have stuck about. It just took longer for the moronic to reveal itself to everybody else :(

[Fascinated]

In her own words.

She should have stuck about. It just took longer for the moronic to reveal itself to everybody else :(

What would you have us do? There are many other topics besides the Duggars, and there are still many members wishing to engage in the types of discussions that have always defined Free Jinger. I seriously would like to know because I do see the issues.

[Arrowoftruth]

At last, first pics of Izzy with Michelle.

[attachment=0]thumb-img-1511-1024-photogallery.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=1]thumb-img-1512-1024-photogallery.jpg[/attachment]

More baby photos at the Dillard's website: dillardfamily.com/photo-album

Jesus his head is huge. Jill would've probably have to have been sewn up.

[Nowyn]

For me it's not so much about what the People wrote but how much all the accounts differ. And all that's missing are things that were generating bad ublicity.

According to People she laboured 70 hours post ROM, went to long hike. Tested GBS+. Saw meconium, went to hospital. Refused interventioins, accepted them. Baby flipped and had D-Cells and she had C.

According to VSE she laboured 70 hours PROM, Saw meconium, went to hospital, refused interventions but accepted it later. Bqby flipped and she had C. Baby absolutely didn't have D cells. Meconium is not so bad and very large babies can flip after over 60 hours of labour AFTER ROM like nothing.

What we know from some sleuths here is that she DIDN*T go to nearest hospital. GBS+ was confirmed and treated per photo.

Timeline:

She was tested GBS+ and had IV antibiotics.

11 days after DD birth her waters broke at 3:43. Due date being 24 that would propably be Sat 4th. First articles made it sound like her labour started then, VSP was pretty clear that contractions kicked in around 3 hours after taking castor oil which was approx 24 hours ago at 17h into labour. Articles mentioned that she used castor oil to start labour, too, and also before transferring to hospital. That would mean that there is some time uncounted. I would go with all over confusion- Pretty normal in the circumstances. But the castor oil. It's not end of world and if it were only thing frong with this birth I would give a pass. (Currently it's considered unproven to help, but also unproven to really harm. However it can make mom miserable)

That's also when Derrick called reenforcements. So Jana, Michelle and Rachel came to help Sat night. According to TLC that was around 20 hours of labour. Also according to them contractions petered out from there and where 15min apart at 24 hours mark. (24 hour PROM has been considered safest opton since 60's but 2014 study's conclusion is:" Fetal and/or maternal morbidity in tPROM women may not increase if there is a strict analysis of maternal and or fetal risk factors added to a careful clinical management. Moreover, it may be useful to wait for spontaneous labor in order to enhance the patient's chance of vaginal delivery." But this is not something that Jill did. She was GBS+ and as time went by Izzie's and hers risk to get infection increased. I could live with 48 hours and not judge (I would propably look funnily and shake my head but not judge) but 70 fricking hours - according to them)

According to VSE Jill got up to go to toilet and saw meconium on pad. She then decided to move to hospital now that situation wasn't yet emergency. That would be at 48 hours into labour so Sunday night. (But no, not to the closest one that has NICU. They go 45 mins away to get treated by scetchy dude.)

Then they get to hospital and she refuses interventions at first. That's according articles IIRC. (The infection risk alone is bad alone but with meconium it should mean to anyone that the baby needs to get out. I can't see any doctor not recommending pit and maybe even C at that point.)

Somewhere between 48 hours and 70 she accepts pit and then epidural so she can rest. Somewhere closer to 70 hours doctor does ultrasound and somehow suddenly Izzy is transverse breech. (Unless someone shows me footage of her having someone with real education doing ultrasound and confirming that baby wasn't breech before I can't believe that Izzy flipped at that point. He is huge and didn't have fluid to lessen te friction. If he moved Jill should have felt it. And that's in the very unlikely situation he flipped at all. Even if I discard D-cells mentioned in articles Jill was reckless know-it-all to not acccept pit when offered as if she knew better)

Then she has C and there is no less that 3 extra people in OR. Extra, unscrubbed and unnecessary. For the fucks sake. There is reasons for one etra person for c sections and none for others.

In my not so humble opinion Jill knows just enouh to think she knows something and not enough to realize how little she knows. If she went into this thinking that she didn't know anything she and Izzy would be safer as she would have to learn things. Now she needs to unlearn stuff first and then stop to think knowledge as evil.

Sorry about rant. This is one of hot button issues for me. And no, I'm not product of SOTDRT but English is my third or second language depending on how you see it and just put all my mistakes on it.

[Arrowoftruth]

For me it's not so much about what the People wrote but how much all the accounts differ. And all that's missing are things that were generating bad ublicity.

According to People she laboured 70 hours post ROM, went to long hike. Tested GBS+. Saw meconium, went to hospital. Refused interventioins, accepted them. Baby flipped and had D-Cells and she had C.

According to VSE she laboured 70 hours PROM, Saw meconium, went to hospital, refused interventions but accepted it later. Bqby flipped and she had C. Baby absolutely didn't have D cells. Meconium is not so bad and very large babies can flip after over 60 hours of labour AFTER ROM like nothing.

What we know from some sleuths here is that she DIDN*T go to nearest hospital. GBS+ was confirmed and treated per photo.

Timeline:

She was tested GBS+ and had IV antibiotics.

11 days after DD birth her waters broke at 3:43. Due date being 24 that would propably be Sat 4th. First articles made it sound like her labour started then, VSP was pretty clear that contractions kicked in around 3 hours after taking castor oil which was approx 24 hours ago at 17h into labour. Articles mentioned that she used castor oil to start labour, too, and also before transferring to hospital. That would mean that there is some time uncounted. I would go with all over confusion- Pretty normal in the circumstances. But the castor oil. It's not end of world and if it were only thing frong with this birth I would give a pass. (Currently it's considered unproven to help, but also unproven to really harm. However it can make mom miserable)

That's also when Derrick called reenforcements. So Jana, Michelle and Rachel came to help Sat night. According to TLC that was around 20 hours of labour. Also according to them contractions petered out from there and where 15min apart at 24 hours mark. (24 hour PROM has been considered safest opton since 60's but 2014 study's conclusion is:" Fetal and/or maternal morbidity in tPROM women may not increase if there is a strict analysis of maternal and or fetal risk factors added to a careful clinical management. Moreover, it may be useful to wait for spontaneous labor in order to enhance the patient's chance of vaginal delivery." But this is not something that Jill did. She was GBS+ and as time went by Izzie's and hers risk to get infection increased. I could live with 48 hours and not judge (I would propably look funnily and shake my head but not judge) but 70 fricking hours - according to them)

According to VSE Jill got up to go to toilet and saw meconium on pad. She then decided to move to hospital now that situation wasn't yet emergency. That would be at 48 hours into labour so Sunday night. (But no, not to the closest one that has NICU. They go 45 mins away to get treated by scetchy dude.)

Then they get to hospital and she refuses interventions at first. That's according articles IIRC. (The infection risk alone is bad alone but with meconium it should mean to anyone that the baby needs to get out. I can't see any doctor not recommending pit and maybe even C at that point.)

Somewhere between 48 hours and 70 she accepts pit and then epidural so she can rest. Somewhere closer to 70 hours doctor does ultrasound and somehow suddenly Izzy is transverse breech. (Unless someone shows me footage of her having someone with real education doing ultrasound and confirming that baby wasn't breech before I can't believe that Izzy flipped at that point. He is huge and didn't have fluid to lessen te friction. If he moved Jill should have felt it. And that's in the very unlikely situation he flipped at all. Even if I discard D-cells mentioned in articles Jill was reckless know-it-all to not acccept pit when offered as if she knew better)

Then she has C and there is no less that 3 extra people in OR. Extra, unscrubbed and unnecessary. For the fucks sake. There is reasons for one etra person for c sections and none for others.

In my not so humble opinion Jill knows just enouh to think she knows something and not enough to realize how little she knows. If she went into this thinking that she didn't know anything she and Izzy would be safer as she would have to learn things. Now she needs to unlearn stuff first and then stop to think knowledge as evil.

Sorry about rant. This is one of hot button issues for me. And no, I'm not product of SOTDRT but English is my third or second language depending on how you see it and just put all my mistakes on it.

Her timeline is messed up for sure.I do have a couple of questions...What are d cells and c cells? I don't remember reading that in the article? Or the part about the hike. I do remember seeing she went to get her nails done(Is that also when she went with Cathy?), got food and went to the chiropractor. They definitely excluded that from the VSE which leads me all the more to think she went to Venessa. Also did anybody catch when Derrick said they were going to call for reinforcements it was daylight out but Jana and co were shown leaving in the wee hours of the morning? Also why would they need reinforcements if the two midwives were there.I believe Jill planned on having an unassisted homebirth(which sounds illegal) and the midwives were there for show.

[SassyPants]

Her timeline is messed up for sure.I do have a couple of questions...What are d cells and c cells? I don't remember reading that in the article? Or the part about the hike. I do remember seeing she went to get her nails done(Is that also when she went with Cathy?), got food and went to the chiropractor. They definitely excluded that from the VSE which leads me all the more to think she went to Venessa. Also did anybody catch when Derrick said they were going to call for reinforcements it was daylight out but Jana and co were shown leaving in the wee hours of the morning? Also why would they need reinforcements if the two midwives were there.I believe Jill planned on having an unassisted homebirth(which sounds illegal) and the midwives were there for show.

Decels are heart drops or decelerations in the rate of the baby's heart rate per minute. Depending on when the decel occurs in relationship to the onset of contractions, they can be indicative of fetal distress.

[SassyPants]

So she went to the hospital after she saw the meconium at about 48 hours into labor and did not deliver for another 22 hours??? She stayed at the hospital for another day after being admitted with PROM> 48 hrs, mec staining and GBS +???? I wonder if she refused assessment, and that is why no one picked up on the baby's malposition? Why go to a hospital and then refuse treatments???

There is so much wrong with Jill's account.

[flyingxchanges]

Did anyone notice in the Jill delivery episode they blur Jill's knees out when they're getting pedicures :roll: