Derick, Jill, and Izzie

[Lucy H]

The Scandinavian countries are always touted as some of the best places to live. What are some of the downsides for Finland? I know it's cold and dark in winter, LOL!

Taxes are really high in order to paid for all the social services. Living costs in general are also very high. The people in Scandanavia have chosen to pay high taxes in exchange for things like free college. There is also to be said for it but it would never happen in the USA.

[SassyPants]

Taxes are really high in order to paid for all the social services. Living costs in general are also very high. The people in Scandanavia have chosen to pay high taxes in exchange for things like free college. There is also to be said for it but it would never happen in the USA.

Of note, the students/educational system in Finland always rate among the top in the world. Finnish people are also known to be among the most literate people on the planet.

[ClaraOswin]

According to the OBGYN on the other site, if Jill refused assessment, no one is legally allowed to touch her. Now, why would go to the hospital and refuse to be assessed, doesn't make much sense, but then again, we are talking about people who lack common sense and who have made very few independent, adult decisions in their lives.

I refused all internal exams while I was pregnant. But my doctor still touched my stomach at pretty much every appointment.

[SassyPants]

I refused all internal exams while I was pregnant. But my doctor still touched my stomach at pretty much every appointment.

But had you refused to be touched, your MD would have had to comply.

Remember this is Jill. The only person who has touched her beyond a sidehug is Derick.

[BrownieMomma]

According to the OBGYN on the other site, if Jill refused assessment, no one is legally allowed to touch her. Now, why would go to the hospital and refuse to be assessed, doesn't make much sense, but then again, we are talking about people who lack common sense and who have made very few independent, adult decisions in their lives.

Not to mention that Jill is the same sort of medical professional as doctors and nurses, and everyone knows doctors are terrible patients. Because Jill knows her own body better than anyone so why would anyone need to push on her tummy?

[SassyPants]

Not to mention that Jill is the same sort of medical professional as doctors and nurses, and everyone knows doctors are terrible patients.

When I retrieved linen from the cart and made my own bed first day post op with my second, my nurse told me that she "hated nurse patients."

[Rainytown]

It's also where Derick and Jill had their wedding.

Because nothing says "I heart Jesus" like public foreplay in front of a religious symbol...

[ClaraOswin]

True. I forget she's a Duggar and not just a regular person who doesn't mind a MALE doctor pushing on their stomach. Do the Duggars ever have breast exams performed on them by healthcare professionals??

And wait...you got clean sheets day 2 in the hospital? I had the same ones my entire stay. Lame.

[SassyPants]

True. I forget she's a Duggar and not just a regular person who doesn't mind a MALE doctor pushing on my stomach. Do the Duggars ever have breast exams performed on them by healthcare professionals??

And wait...you got clean sheets day 2 in the hospital? I had the same ones my entire stay. Lame.

Are you sure? Maybe they changed the linen while you were in the BR or shower? If not, gross.

[ClaraOswin]

Are you sure? Maybe they changed the linen while you were in the BR or shower? If not, gross.

Yeah, that's possible. Or when I was doing laps around the floor of the hospital. Though I was only there a few days. I don't change my bedding every few days at home either.

[SassyPants]

Breast exams- Good question. The Duggars probably think only adult women need an exam.

Adult= married

Married= having a male headship

Male headship= provider of breast exams

[Rainytown]

When they were taking the crib through the front door, did you hear JB say something about we're still trying for more but it's not happening and we don't know whether it's her "plumbing" or mine? :roll:

Jill's face when he said that was priceless. Very similar face to when JB told them they'd be joined at the mouth. :doh:

I'm sorry if the attribution above got messed up. In the meantime, here's my open letter to Jim Boob.

Dear Jim Boob,

It is astonishing to me that you have managed to father twenty-one children but you still know little to nothing about the female reproductive system. Then again, I'm not sure why I'm surprised by this; I'm fairly positive the only part you're interested in is the vagina. And perhaps the uterus. Everything else is useless to you, isn't it? Here's a short course for you.

Women typically stop menstruating (which I'm sure you think of as "that time of the month" or "she'd better do something else for me, I'm not venturing near THAT") during pre-menopause, which most women experience in their late 40's - early 50's. This means significantly reduced to absent fertility and the cessation of menses. In other words, you'd better get your ass to Amazon.com and buy some lube if you have any hope of getting any now or in the future. And if you don't think doing something like buying a product that will make your wife's life better while she deals with another side effect of menopause (uncomfortable intercourse due to vaginal dryness) is necessary, you're an even bigger asshole than I thought you were.

The cessation of menstruation means there are no more eggs to be had. It also means there's nothing wrong with your wife's "plumbing". This is a natural part of aging. Considering the fact she's already given you twenty-one "blessings" in total, she must have more self-control than I'll ever have since she didn't take a cast-iron frying pan to your person in your sleep as a result of your crass and disgusting comments. Menopause is a natural occurrence in a woman's life, and it's not like she's doing this to thwart your mighty sperm. In the meantime, I truly dislike your wife. It hurts to defend her, but I'm going to, just like I'd defend any other woman whose husband is a clueless idiot. You have 19 healthy and surviving children. STFU about "another blessing".

By the way, I'm sure there's nothing wrong with your "plumbing". You're closing in on 50, you're out of shape and you've got a belly, so I'll bet little Jim Boob isn't working quite as well as he used to in the past. It seems that you have -- ahem -- a little problem with prematurity, so perhaps you should shut your trap before your long-suffering wife really spills the beans.

One more thing, and speaking of "getting any": Stop talking about (and demonstrating to) sex (and the sex life you wished you were having) in front of your children in public. It's creepy and embarrassing. It's also unfortunate you can't treat your wife like a lady in public, either, which ultimately shows she's nothing more than a breeding machine for you. A man who respected and esteemed his wife would treat her with courtesy while speaking of her to anyone else, let alone the media. "Courtesy" means you do not discuss private and intimate time with your life's partner in front of a TV camera. YOUR SONS will pick up on this behavior, you dumbass. Your daughters will think it's normal. I wish I could express how infuriated I am at any man who thinks this is acceptable behavior toward anyone they claim to love.

Clean it up.

-R

[lascuba]

I admit to confirmation bias but I'm loving the comments on previously.tv. It makes so much more sense that Jill and her midwives were too incompetent to know that the baby was breech, and that she refused vaginal exams and ultrasounds when she got to the hospital until she had been there as long as she was with no progress. Then when she finally consented to an ultrasound she thought it was that the baby had turned when he had been breech the whole time.

[Nowyn]

This is off topic so I'll use spoiler text. If it's not appropriate please tell me.

Taxes are really high in order to paid for all the social services. Living costs in general are also very high. The people in Scandanavia have chosen to pay high taxes in exchange for things like free college. There is also to be said for it but it would never happen in the USA.

Taxes aren't really high. They are highger than in US but not as much as people think. We spend most of them for social services and our military spending is lot smaller. Also taxation is pretty progressive. Brackets varied from 0% – 30% 4 years ago and it hasn't changed much (0% up to 15600 euros/year, 6.5% up to 23200, 17.05% up to 37800, 21.5% up to 68200 and 30% for the rest). The investment income is taxed at fixed rate of 30% or 32% for income that exceeds 50 000 euro. Property taxes are 0.60–1.35%, 0.32-0.75% on regular housing and 0.50-1.00% on leisure properties. Pension fees from inviduals are usually 4.7% from income. Proportional communal taxes paid to municipalities are 16.5% – 21.5%, average 19.17%.

"VAT is levied at a standard rate of 24% (January 2013), and two reduced rates of 14% on food, restaurant services, catering services and animal feed, and 10% on books, pharmaceutical products, services creating opportunities for physical exercise, passenger transportation and accommodation"

In change of this taxation we get very cheap and good healtcare (never over 700 euros/year), free and good schools, reduced daycare, wide variety of social benefits and at least 1200euros/month of pension. Most people don't abuse these benefits. There is no stigma for some benefits like from KELA (pension, sick leave, maternity leave, child bonus, housing bonus, medical care) but for person going to actual social services for money are looked down. I have pension for now even though I'm not even 30. I have very good reasons for it but I would have died in US as my income would never be enough for my medical bills. I'm not saying that it's perfect system but it doesn't have as much problems as American media seems to report.

Literacy rate is 100%. 29.3% has post-secondary degree and social mobility is pretty easy. Also most people are at least trilingual. I have dyslexia so sometimes I have very limited ability to write anything, but I read, speak and listen fluently in English, FInnish and French. I have varied ability to use Latin, Italian, Swedish and Polish. It's considered pretty normal in my opinion. Like I said before Finland isn't Eden but most people really appreciate this part of the system.

Back to Duggars. I doubt that any unmarried girl in that family will get any gynecological or breast exams before wedding night. No one's gonna get close that precious virginity. I doubt girls even know that there is such exams unless you are pregnant.

Rainytown, thank you :clapping:

[Rainytown]

Thanks for this prompt.

Anyone who has any doubt should go read that link and that poster's comments. The person is a licensed, practicing OBGYN. Of particular note is her medical opinion of: the likelihood of Izzy flipping at the last munite and the topic of internal exams...very interesting.

I really appreciate doodlebug's comments at Previously TV, as well as a certain NICU nurse's. ;-) And I think it's safe to say the author of the People article (among others) had none of their specialized knowledge, among other things.

[SassyPants]

I admit to confirmation bias but I'm loving the comments on previously.tv. It makes so much more sense that Jill and her midwives were too incompetent to know that the baby was breech, and that she refused vaginal exams and ultrasounds when she got to the hospital until she had been there as long as she was with no progress. Then when she finally consented to an ultrasound she thought it was that the baby had turned when he had been breech the whole time.

That round, pumpkin head should have been the first clue, despite all those whose kids had no cone at all.

[Coco]

That round, pumpkin head should have been the first clue, despite all those whose kids had no cone at all.

I'm skeptical that she didn't know this. My son was 3 lbs smaller than Izzy and i could still tell his position by feeling. This is weird but babies like backrubs before they're born. :lol: Moms just know, from the kicks and the movements. When i finally got him to turn, I slept in a recliner for weeks before he was born because every time i tried to lay down horizontally he would skootch around and i was for sure not going to risk a breech presentation, that would have made a hospital VBAC pretty much impossible.

I'm assuming that Jill DID know, and believed that she could do a breech no problem. Or maybe that visit to the chiro was to try some last minute Webster techniques, probably with a female assistant.

I don't think Jill was picky about being touched by a man - a man did her pedi including calf wraps. But at the hospital she probably did refuse being touched for a while hoping that they could still have a vaginal breech.

Driving the ISB is kinda fun. :lol: :auto-swerve:

[JessaBlessa]

I don't know how to find the photos/comments now, but I remember seeing the photos of when the Duggars were in Texas pre-Izzy's birth and thought that Izzy was transverse just from the look of Jill's bump. I think there were comments made at that time about it on this forum, and I wasn't one bit surprised that she had to have a C-section. And I am NOT a medical person. But we were all commenting on the size of her and I think a lot of us were predicting C-section. So I just don't get how her mid-wives didn't "notice" something.

I also think it was in her birth plan to go to that hospital (which wasn't the closest) because it was pre-arranged with the doctor. I understand her mid-wife worked with this doctor.

[lascuba]

I'm skeptical that she didn't know this. My son was 3 lbs smaller than Izzy and i could still tell his position by feeling. This is weird but babies like backrubs before they're born. :lol: Moms just know, from the kicks and the movements. When i finally got him to turn, I slept in a recliner for weeks before he was born because every time i tried to lay down horizontally he would skootch around and i was for sure not going to risk a breech presentation, that would have made a hospital VBAC pretty much impossible.

I'm assuming that Jill DID know, and believed that she could do a breech no problem. Or maybe that visit to the chiro was to try some last minute Webster techniques, probably with a female assistant.

I don't think Jill was picky about being touched by a man - a man did her pedi including calf wraps. But at the hospital she probably did refuse being touched for a while hoping that they could still have a vaginal breech.

Driving the ISB is kinda fun. :lol: :auto-swerve:

That was my immediate assumption from the beginning-that Jill knew he was breech and was attempting a vaginal birth anyway, by that he changed position just slightly away from frank breech so vaginal became impossible. It makes so much sense to me that Jill would refuse ultrasounds and vaginal exams - a lot of homebirthers are known to do that-and she's stupid enough that I can imagine her nit having any idea. Or maybe she was just in denial that a vaginal birth wasn't going to happen so she ignored the physical signs. Or maybe she DID I know all along and that's why she refused any exams in the hospital for so long.

[Arrowoftruth]

Is it just me or does it seem like Jill doesn't get Dericks sense of humor. He'll make a joke and she kinda gets this confused look on her face. I think it's because of her limited world view, that she doesn't even realize he's joking sometimes. That would make me feel so lame if my spouse didn't get my joke and at least fake laugh.

[SassyPants]

Is it just me or does it seem like Jill doesn't get Dericks sense of humor. He'll make a joke and she kinda gets this confused look on her face. I think it's because of her limited world view, that she doesn't even realize he's joking sometimes. That would make me feel so lame if my spouse didn't get my joke and at least fake laugh.

What would be her frame of reference for humor or comedy, JB?

She does seem short and rather bossy with Derick and his personality- A joy suck comes to mind.

I never would have thought pre- wedding that Jill would be so short with Derick- I think she has come to realize how much she really did miss out on growing up in Duggarville, and it pisses her off, so she takes it out on Derick.

[nst]

What would be her frame of reference for humor or comedy, JB?

She does seem short and rather bossy with Derick and his personality- A joy suck comes to mind.

I never would have thought pre- wedding that Jill would be so short with Derick- I think she has come to realize how much she really did miss out on growing up in Duggarville, and it pisses her off, so she takes it out on Derick.

i love this and yes 1000%

[Rachel333]

So how would this birth have gone 150 years ago? Was there really no way at all to get the baby out vaginally?

It's scary to think things can go wrong so easily.

[SassyPants]

So how would this birth have gone 150 years ago? Was there really no way at all to get the baby out vaginally?

It's scary to think things can go wrong so easily.

With a head that size, he might have died of asphyxiation.

Remember 150 years ago, people were smaller and in many places quick, easy food was not plentiful.

[lascuba]

So how would this birth have gone 150 years ago? Was there really no way at all to get the baby out vaginally?

It's scary to think things can go wrong so easily.

If baby was a frank or footling breech, there would have been a high likelihood of asphyxiation because of head entrapment or cord compression.

If transverse, usually the shoulder or arm presents first. There's just no way for the baby to come out the way--he would have died after a very long labor, and Jill would either have died as well or miraculous survived an infection, major bleeding, and/or even a uterine rupture.

ETA: Maybe they could have reached in and turned the baby back then. They do that now with second twins--they'll turn a tranverse baby breech and pull it out. Don't know if that would work with a singleton.