No-vax

[demgirl]

I think that minds tend to change with demonstrable evidence of negative consequences. If herd immunity is truly on the downswing (which I believe), I think that once you start to see deaths of young children in affected communities because the free ride of anti-vax parents has ended, the tide will turn back to vaccines, although of course some will remain committed to not vaccinating. I just hope it happens before the diseases become widespread enough again to develop mutations that require changes to the vaccine.

I think words of warning mean very little. It's easy to brush off "Your child might die of complications from any of these diseases," with the counterclaim that, "Whooping cough is rarely deadly and a little illness never hurt anyone and it's so rare to end up with breathing complications or pneumonia". It's harder to brush off a friend's infant dying of pertussis because the older siblings were not vaccinated against it and caught it and brought it home.

[contrary]

i don't eat anything that casts a shadow.

[NurseNell]

I think that minds tend to change with demonstrable evidence of negative consequences. If herd immunity is truly on the downswing (which I believe), I think that once you start to see deaths of young children in affected communities because the free ride of anti-vax parents has ended, the tide will turn back to vaccines,

We had a measles outbreak in the early 1990's among our Hmong population, several children died. The Hmong are immigrants and hadn't immunized because back home in the mountains of Laos immunizations didn't exist.Today you'd be hard pressed to find a Hmong child not immunized. Now it's our Somali children who aren't current on immunizations and we have a small measles outbreak in that community, with no deaths yet, so they are embracing immunizations.

But a lot of our granola and helicopter parents are choosing not to immunize. I hope it doesn't take deaths to wake them up.

Nell

[Buzzard]

When I was in college (At a major university in a major city) two foreign students came down with measles. The CDC sent people and every single student faculty member had to get additional paperwork (beyond what was submitted to attend the university) to prove that we had been vaccinated. Luckily, it didnt spread beyond those two - who were roomies.

I actually had this conversation because a coworker was filling out an affadavit saying she wouldnt vax her kids based on a religious exemption (which is BS). I told her the story and told her "good luck playing roulette with your kids lives. I'm going to get a flu shot." These bugs are everywhere. Are there risks? Maybe, but thats a risk I'm willing to take to ensure that i WONT get a disease that I could avoid.

[Terrie]

I'm active on a couple "debunking the anti-vax arguments" boards, and most people agree that it's not about convincing the anti-vax people, it's about reaching the people who are on the fence and honestly confused by the information they're being bombarded with.

[ladypuglover]

:violence-hammer: :text-deletetopic:

So in other words, I'm sticking my fingers in my ears and run out of the room screaming, "la-la-la-la, I can't hear you!"

[browngrl]

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo....!!!!

Wait, I can condense this argument: 1/2 of you are right and 1/2 of you I am never speaking to again and you're going on my Foe list.

yes that about sums it up :lol:

[Black Aliss]

Can we please change the subject to something nice and non-controversial? Like circumcision? Or cloth diapers vs disposables?

[NurseNell]

Or cloth diapers vs disposables?

LOL, OK. Cloth all the way. 8-) It's hard to use disposables as dust cloths later on. :lol:

Nell

[keen23]

We used both cloth and disposable, except we only used the cloth as bibs and spit-up rags- my kids were pukers.

[Maul the Koala]

I think that minds tend to change with demonstrable evidence of negative consequences. If herd immunity is truly on the downswing (which I believe), I think that once you start to see deaths of young children in affected communities because the free ride of anti-vax parents has ended, the tide will turn back to vaccines, although of course some will remain committed to not vaccinating. I just hope it happens before the diseases become widespread enough again to develop mutations that require changes to the vaccine.

I think words of warning mean very little. It's easy to brush off "Your child might die of complications from any of these diseases," with the counterclaim that, "Whooping cough is rarely deadly and a little illness never hurt anyone and it's so rare to end up with breathing complications or pneumonia". It's harder to brush off a friend's infant dying of pertussis because the older siblings were not vaccinated against it and caught it and brought it home.

I see it among my friends who grew up in third world countries without vaccines actually. They are 100% full force for vaccination. I had friends from a particular country and all the kids in their town got meningitis at once. One guy spent an entire year hospitalized. He can't look at computer screens or be in bright areas for long periods of time.

There was a mass immunization campaign at the post-secondary institutions here in Alberta a few years ago because of an outbreak of the mumps. Everyone was in awe about how successful the immunization campaign was. Mind you, we had posters plastered all over campus listing the side effects of the mumps and anything about 'swollen balls' was enough to convince most males to line up for the shot. ;)

[Boogalou]

You have seen it on homeschooling boards? Do you mean homeschoolers who have become anti-homeschool? I am just curious, I have never seen that in 10+ years of homeschooling. I have 2 die hard homeschoolers who sent their teens to school this year,but both are still very pro-homeschool(one is still homeschooling her youngest)and know we are here if school doesn't work out.

I think Creaky Steel meant that she had seen the vaccination debate on homeschool borads, not homeschoolers becoming anti homeschooling, but homeschoolers having their minds changed about vaccinations. But I could be mistaken.

[maybeizfundie]

I see it among my friends who grew up in third world countries without vaccines actually. They are 100% full force for vaccination.

Yep. My husband and the vast majority of African immigrants we know are this way. And with good reason, IMO.

Dh's country has nearly eradicated incidents of polio with recent vax campaigns. And the "better hygiene and infrastructure" argument as to why the disease is on the way out just doesn't hold water in that situation. 'Cause that isn't happening on a level that would make that kind of difference (which is a whole other, very sad situation).

[Esteleth]

Whee! We get to debate THIS again?

*puts on hard hat and flame-retardant clothes*

Hmm. I'm a scientist. I don't study vaccines or immunology, but I AM working towards a graduate degree in biochemistry. So, uh, my view is this: there are some people, who, because of some underlying problem, cannot be vaccinated. Said people are FEW in number. Adverse reactions to vaccination do occur, usually because of some underlying problem. Said adverse reactions are also FEW in number

Said people who cannot vaccinate are DEPENDENT on everyone else begin vaccinated, for herd immunity. You don't want to hurt your fee-fee getting an OMGSHOT? You think it's unnatural? Fuck you. People with immune problems, AIDS, babies, and many of the elderly are at risk for polio, mumps, and meningitis because of you, asshole.

Also: vaccines don't cause autism! Seriously! This HAS been debunked.

I HAVE autism (high-functioning), as do people all over my family tree, going back a LONG way. Hello, genetics! Please, stop insulting me and other people with autism by calling us "vaccine damaged" or "brain damaged" or "mercury poisoned" or whatever the fuck you call it these days. Maybe think about supporting things that actually help us live our lives?

*deep breath*

Okay.

/soapbox

[Terrie]

I HAVE autism (high-functioning), as do people all over my family tree, going back a LONG way. Hello, genetics! Please, stop insulting me and other people with autism by calling us "vaccine damaged" or "brain damaged" or "mercury poisoned" or whatever the fuck you call it these days.

Ugh, yes. I have OCD, rather than autism, but I've had people try to convince me that it's because of vaccines or mercury in my fillings. The later particularly makes me laugh, because I got my first filling at 16, but had OCD since I was 3. Not to mention, what about my dad, his brother, his mom, my mom's dad, my mom's great aunt, my aunt on my mom's side, her son.... Yeah, maybe, just maybe, there's a genetic thing going on? (Not all of them have OCD, but all of them do have related symptoms and disorders).

Feel free to dislike some of my symptoms. I know I do. But don't, please DON'T, talk about the "lost" or "real" me, as if I'm a changeling child put here by the evil Pharmaceutical companies and their products. Don't call me damaged, or broken. I am a whole, functioning person, who is more than my symptoms. Also, if I get pissed off when you patronize me? That's not a symptom of my OCD. That's a normal reaction to you being an asshole.

[keeperrox]

~Some people work VERY HARD at puttng outfits together so tey can look FAAAAABBBBLLOOUUSSSSS!!!! Taking shoes off totaly ruins the look.

~How DARE you value your carpet/floor over MEEEE!!!!11!!

~I have magical shoes that never track anyting in, because they only walk on sidewalks....or something.

~Others I can't recall at the moment.

Yes, they were dead serious.

No, no. Don't you know anything?!?! Apparently, if you take your shoes off in someone's home, it's rude and boorish. :twisted:

[Feberin]

We vaccinate. I just couldn't live with myself if my child died (or was extremely ill) because of a preventable illness. Also I care about people with cancer, AIDs and babies too young to get vacinated.

[FundiesInMyFamily]

I like the idea of cloth diapers, but being as my 16 year old is disabled and incontinent, I would rather skydive into the Grand Canyon without a parachute than wash/deal with dirty cloth diapers for the past 16 years and the foreseeable future.

:twocents-02cents:

[NurseNell]

I like the idea of cloth diapers, but being as my 16 year old is disabled and incontinent, I would rather skydive into the Grand Canyon without a parachute than wash/deal with dirty cloth diapers for the past 16 years and the foreseeable future.

That is very understandable. ;) I work with special needs kids so I know where you're coming from.

Nell

[Katiebug]

We're big fans of vaccination. Mr. Bug and I are fully-vaccinated, including an annual flu shot. Little Bug is in daycare, and state law requires that children in licensed child care facilities be fully vaccinated per the CDC schedule or the child must have a medical or religious exemption. She has been fully vaccinated to date with no issues. The only one we personally struggle with is the varicella (chicken pox) vaccine. If we could, we would wait for that one until she's of school age - but we can't due to daycare, so it's a moot point. :lol: The one thing we will do differently with future children re: vaccination will be to skip the Hep B birth dose.

I think a lot of people in the developed world who were born after 1945 or thereabouts have very little concept of how many children were permanently harmed or killed by vaccine preventable diseases. If the worst encounter you've had from a VPD is a few scars from when you had the chicken pox at 5 years old, it's easy to think that vaccines aren't important. If you didn't have a classmate die of polio the summer before 3rd grade, or have a cousin who was never able to have kids because mumps rendered him sterile, you might not think it's a big deal.

[Kitchen Princess]

You have seen it on homeschooling boards? Do you mean homeschoolers who have become anti-homeschool? I am just curious, I have never seen that in 10+ years of homeschooling. I have 2 die hard homeschoolers who sent their teens to school this year,but both are still very pro-homeschool(one is still homeschooling her youngest)and know we are here if school doesn't work out.

I've seen people leave patriarchal and fundie and quiverfull lifestyles because of the debates that used to be hosted on the old AOL homeschool forums. I'm still very good friends with a few of them. Some of them even went from QF/Fundie to full on radical whole-life unschooling.

A family member of mine was anti-breastfeeding (for her) until she started hanging at mothering.com. 6 years later, she's still nursing!

eta: I think most people get more relaxed because of debates, not more restrictive. If they want to get more restrictive, they just don't want to think that hard anymore, and drop out of the debate, in my experience.

[Snarkysnark]

Have you read fathermothergod: My Journey Out of Christian Science by Lucia Greenhouse? It is an excellent book. Her parents were both converts to CS, and interestingly her mother's father was a M.D.

No, but I'll have to check it out! I did read Blue Windows and thought it was interesting.

[NurseNell]

No, but I'll have to check it out! I did read Blue Windows and thought it was interesting.

I looked it up on Amazon, sounds good. I'll have to order it from the library.

Thanks.

Nell

[Kitchen Princess]

If you say so. I'm just going off my own experiences, particularly with extended family members who have held these views for years and cannot be persuaded no matter what study comes out (or what is debunked). Hopefully, people do change their minds, but I've not seen it happen with regard to this subject. Again, just my experience.

For the record, I can't think of anyone who has ever changed their mind because of a face-to-face debate at the family reunion.

I'm talking about the mega debate threads on here (although this is lightweight compared to other places) and places like mothering.com, the old AOL homeschooling forums, etc., where many people post, many people lurk, and many people parse each post into its atomic-level parts. If you keep up with those kinds of debates on a particular subject, you cannot help but come out the other side with a thorough understanding of both sides AND the middle. A decade or so of reading that kind of stuff changes a person.

[clibbyjo]

I've seen people leave patriarchal and fundie and quiverfull lifestyles because of the debates that used to be hosted on the old AOL homeschool forums. I'm still very good friends with a few of them. Some of them even went from QF/Fundie to full on radical whole-life unschooling.

A family member of mine was anti-breastfeeding (for her) until she started hanging at mothering.com. 6 years later, she's still nursing!

eta: I think most people get more relaxed because of debates, not more restrictive. If they want to get more restrictive, they just don't want to think that hard anymore, and drop out of the debate, in my experience.

OHHHHHHHH, send the radical unschoolers my way, we have so few left! Funny, I have a friend who was quiverful for 30 years and broke free 2 years ago. She is now a secular unschooler with her 2 youngest kids , so I have seen that happen as well. It is a fine line between both groups, we have very much in common(the granola/secular homeschoolers vs. the Christian homeschoolers), its too bad they hate us .