Bringing Up Bates & Bates Family Doings: Part 2

[GeoBQn]

Gil and Kelly (along with JimBob and Michelle) are making the rounds speaking at all of IBLP's Family Conferences.

familyconferences.org/

[halcionne]

Kelly also says that they use Ezzo's book "Reflections of Moral Innocence" which says adult children should not be taught all about sex until right before their wedding. He also advises parents to not teach their children the proper names for genitalia because the words "penis" and "vagina" are not used in the KJV Bible.

What alternatives does he suggest? Uncomely parts? Foot and shoe? :?

[HereticHick]

What alternatives does he suggest? Uncomely parts? Foot and shoe? :?

Well, Song of Solomon says, "Let my beloved come into his garden, and eat his pleasant fruits," if you know what I mean. :lol:

[nokidsmom]

Well, Song of Solomon says, "Let my beloved come into his garden, and eat his pleasant fruits," if you know what I mean. :lol:

There's a lot of um, poetic description, in that book that doesn't take much to discern the true meaning if you are um, of a mind to read it that way. However one has to wonder if these fundie kids are so sheltered that they don't have the means to do that. It's probably taken literally. Do mommy and daddy have to explain the sexual innuendo?

[Georgiana]

Your neck is like the tower of David, Built with rows of stones On which are hung a thousand shields, All the round shields of the mighty men. Your two breasts are like two fawns, Twins of a gazelle Which feed among the lilies. Until the cool of the day When the shadows flee away, I will go my way to the mountain of myrrh And to the hill of frankincense.…

Song of Sol 4:5

But let us not forget this tasty nugget:

A loving doe, a graceful deer-- may her breasts satisfy you always, may you ever be intoxicated with her love.

Proverbs 5:19

MmmMmm. Deer boobs. It's what Godly Gentlemen like.

[Kira]

Did anyone watch the season finale? I thought Michael and Brandon would get engaged. I'm starting to think their courtship will end like Zach and Sarah's.

[Alye]

Your neck is like the tower of David, Built with rows of stones On which are hung a thousand shields, All the round shields of the mighty men. Your two breasts are like two fawns, Twins of a gazelle Which feed among the lilies. Until the cool of the day When the shadows flee away, I will go my way to the mountain of myrrh And to the hill of frankincense.…

Song of Sol 4:5

But let us not forget this tasty nugget:

A loving doe, a graceful deer-- may her breasts satisfy you always, may you ever be intoxicated with her love.

Proverbs 5:19

MmmMmm. Deer boobs. It's what Godly Gentlemen like.

Well, this will certainly change how I read Harry Potter, as if that isn't sexual enough with all the wand waving and broomsticks.

[zz22zz]

I was surprised they didn't get engaged either, something seems not right with Michaella and Brandon. After all she is a full time nanny so she should have savings, she has to be making between $300 and $500 a week. Most likely in cash. So getting married right after his graduation should have been an option. I suppose he may want to have a full time job and a home, especially since she is baby crazy but his willing to wait and wait and wait in fundie land is a red flag.

Though based on previous evangelical leaders history there is a possibility he has a side slice or two so he is getting his needs met which would really slow down his urge to marry. He is the dud (as in worse than Ben) out of the Duggar/Bates relationships so far.

I liked the party that Nathan threw for his dad's 50th, with a lot of help from his siblings.

[LovelyLuna]

Did anyone watch the season finale? I thought Michael and Brandon would get engaged. I'm starting to think their courtship will end like Zach and Sarah's.

but isn’t he in the family photo on their blog?

[Alye]

I was surprised they didn't get engaged either, something seems not right with Michaella and Brandon. After all she is a full time nanny so she should have savings, she has to be making between $300 and $500 a week. Most likely in cash. So getting married right after his graduation should have been an option. I suppose he may want to have a full time job and a home, especially since she is baby crazy but his willing to wait and wait and wait in fundie land is a red flag.

Though based on previous evangelical leaders history there is a possibility he has a side slice or two so he is getting his needs met which would really slow down his urge to marry. He is the dud (as in worse than Ben) out of the Duggar/Bates relationships so far.

I liked the party that Nathan threw for his dad's 50th, with a lot of help from his siblings.

But how much of that money is going to Gil and Kelly? While some should be (in the form of board and lodging) it wouldn't surprise me if most of it was going to help support such a large family.

[Ursula]

but isn’t he in the family photo on their blog?

Yeah, if their relationship goes bust it'll be a wayyyyy bigger deal than Zach and Sarah's was. Zach and Sarah's relationship started (and ended) without the presence of television cameras following them around for a weekly show. I know it was shown on one of their ABC specials but most people wouldn't have paid attention to that or looked into it much (they may just think his current wife is the same woman or forgotten entirely that he had a girlfriend previously). Brandon is on their family website, has been featured on what is apparently Up's most popular/watched show, they have their own Facebook fanpage as a couple for crying out loud. Not to mention the largest Bates family Facebook fanpage (20k+ likes) posts about them quite a bit. Sweeping Brandon under the rug will be impossible. So, if they break up, I expect a meltdown from Girl Michael of epic proportions. Girl is OBSESSED with him and getting married.

I hope that doesn't happen, though. She seems like a very sweet woman and I wouldn't wish that kind of pain on anyone. On the other hand, it may be the only thing that will snap someone out of the cult BS beliefs they were raised with. So, I don't know. It's a tough one.

All that said, I don't think it's that odd they aren't engaged yet (that we know of). I mean, yeah, it's pretty long for fundie standards but by normal people standards they have only been dating for 15 months. Most normal people wouldn't be getting engaged that quickly. Or if they did they would have a very long engagement because once (if) Girl Michael and Brandon do get engaged it'll most likely be less than three months to the alter. Brandon also knows that once they're married the babies will start coming and won't stop until Girl Michael hits menopause. If they get married in the summer, even if she gets knocked up on their wedding night, she will still be 26 by the time she gives birth to their first. The hyper fertile Myrtles Michelle Duggar and Kelly Bates were on their 5th and 4th sprogs by that point. Hell, the normally fertile Anna Duggar is 26 and pregnant with her 4th (though she will turn 27 about a month before it's born). If Brandon doesn't want to end up with kids in the double digits he is SMART to wait as long as possible, though Girl Michael is just going to get more and more impatient so I don't think he can hold off for much longer. I mean, there was an episode featuring him looking at engagement rings FFS! I thought for sure this meant they were officially engaged and it would be shown in the season finale. Guess not though :confusion-shrug:

[JillyO]

Wow, that is super anti-climatic. I'm not in the US, so can't watch the show (though I did catch the first five or six episodes when they were up on Youtube for a little while), but from what you guys are writing, it just seems super odd that the season didn't end with their engagement. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad Brandon didn't feel pressured into proposing just for the sake of the show's storyline. But it is super weird to make his looking at engagement rings into a thing and then not follow it up with an actual engagement (or it could even just have been him planning to surprise her and then - CLIFFHANGER - will he propose in the next season premiere?).

Also, their courtship is pretty long by fundie standards. I wanna say at this point it is longer than Jessa and Ben's, right? Not that there is anything wrong with a long courtship - heck, all of these couples should court for a couple of years if you ask me. But when you're in your mid-20s and you can't even hold your significant other's hand, it does seem a little weird not to want to get married sooner rather than later. And Michael clearly agrees.

[SayWhat]

Notice No Duggars at Gil's 50th surprise party.

Probably didn't want Boob to hog the microphone.

[BullyJBG]

Brandon works for IBLP, correct? Maybe he HAS found himself questioning what they stand for. It seems everyone closely involved in that right now is sworn to secrecy. But likely he's trying to explore options outside of that if his salary(or lack thereof?) isn't enough for a home for them. And, are they able to allow that, now that BG isn't there anymore? When he was, people were worked almost to death, so time to look for other work, well, it basically doesn't happen. Long work hours, late nights, early mornings, and everything was carefully monitored.(well, judging by what I read on Recovering Grace anyway)

Well, that and, I don't think he likes being on camera much. Maybe they're waiting to be able to have that private wedding with just their families, and to be able to do so on their own. Without needing the TV money.

But we'll see. Both families(Duggars and Bates) are planning on speaking at the Big Sandy event, though they're not directly calling it ATI or IBLP now. Again, hiding behind re-naming?

[formergothardite]

BG is still there, he is just hiding so it looks like the BoD actually did something. The latest thing he sent out to his loyal followers used IBLP pictures and I rather doubt he stole them.

I just looked at the website for the conference and wow are they trying to rebrand! I really hope that that ship has sailed and IBLP/ATI will never recover. I really think that the Bates show is an effort to help with this rebranding.

[HereticHick]

There's a lot of um, poetic description, in that book that doesn't take much to discern the true meaning if you are um, of a mind to read it that way. However one has to wonder if these fundie kids are so sheltered that they don't have the means to do that. It's probably taken literally. Do mommy and daddy have to explain the sexual innuendo?

I spent a lot of time during Sunday morning services up in the church balcony, sniggering over Song of Solomon in the pulpit bibles with my fellow teens. I can't believe fundy kids haven't done the same the same thing.

[Pretzel]

BG is still there, he is just hiding so it looks like the BoD actually did something. The latest thing he sent out to his loyal followers used IBLP pictures and I rather doubt he stole them.

I just looked at the website for the conference and wow are they trying to rebrand! I really hope that that ship has sailed and IBLP/ATI will never recover. I really think that the Bates show is an effort to help with this rebranding.

But wouldn't that be more effective if they just for once said that they actually ARE IBLP/ATI members? I can see the Bateseses trying to wipe stains from their image but I doubt it'll benefit IBLP if they never mention it.

Those who know that the Bateseses are dangerous cult members are either fellow members or people like us FJites, who know about the whole ordeal. The rest think they are that wholesome poster Christian family every American should be a part of and admire them for their 'well-behaved children', 'noble pro-life agenda' and 'gubbernment-free self-sufficiency'.

[HereticHick]

Brandon works for IBLP, correct? Maybe he HAS found himself questioning what they stand for. It seems everyone closely involved in that right now is sworn to secrecy. But likely he's trying to explore options outside of that if his salary(or lack thereof?) isn't enough for a home for them. And, are they able to allow that, now that BG isn't there anymore? When he was, people were worked almost to death, so time to look for other work, well, it basically doesn't happen. Long work hours, late nights, early mornings, and everything was carefully monitored.(well, judging by what I read on Recovering Grace anyway)

Well, that and, I don't think he likes being on camera much. Maybe they're waiting to be able to have that private wedding with just their families, and to be able to do so on their own. Without needing the TV money.

But we'll see. Both families(Duggars and Bates) are planning on speaking at the Big Sandy event, though they're not directly calling it ATI or IBLP now. Again, hiding behind re-naming?

My suspicion is that Brandon doesn't have a full time paying job at Gothard headquarters--that he only has an internship or something--and they can't marry until he secures paying job. I wonder if (& I hope) this is indicative of Gothard financial problems (if only we could be a fly on the wall in the Pecan Thief's office) I feel sorry for Michael(a) because Kelly tells everyone how desparate she is to marry. On the other hand, I am glad that they just aren't making Brandon become Gil's errand boy, right Ben Bob? and letting them marry!

[formergothardite]

I suspect that ATI/IBLP is going to have a name change in the not so distant future. The current names are too mired down with scandal to attract many people. They have already renamed the yearly ATI conferences "Family Conferences". If the name is totally changed I could see the Bates being more open and honest about their involvement and since they are likable and come off as less crazy than the Duggars it could would help the "new" ATI/IBLP for them to be the public face of it.

[19 cats and counting]

I was surprised they didn't get engaged either, something seems not right with Michaella and Brandon. After all she is a full time nanny so she should have savings, she has to be making between $300 and $500 a week. Most likely in cash. So getting married right after his graduation should have been an option. I suppose he may want to have a full time job and a home, especially since she is baby crazy but his willing to wait and wait and wait in fundie land is a red flag.

Though based on previous evangelical leaders history there is a possibility he has a side slice or two so he is getting his needs met which would really slow down his urge to marry. He is the dud (as in worse than Ben) out of the Duggar/Bates relationships so far.

I liked the party that Nathan threw for his dad's 50th, with a lot of help from his siblings.

I'm a little surprised too. Isn't she also in school? Perhaps some of her money is going to tuition/books/gas but she still should be able to save some of it.

[Closed Womb]

My suspicion is that Brandon doesn't have a full time paying job at Gothard headquarters--that he only has an internship or something--and they can't marry until he secures paying job. I wonder if (& I hope) this is indicative of Gothard financial problems (if only we could be a fly on the wall in the Pecan Thief's office) I feel sorry for Michael(a) because Kelly tells everyone how desparate she is to marry. On the other hand, I am glad that they just aren't making Brandon become Gil's errand boy, right Ben Bob? and letting them marry!

In Kelly's defense, Michael (-la) (-a) also tells everyone how desperate she is to marry. I feel bad for Michael because I have been in that position (or close to it, was never full on fundie, more like "attended fundie-lite churches.") It is really hard to be ready for marriage, ready for sex, ready for the closest thing to independence she'll every know, and just sit around waiting.

[nokidsmom]

I spent a lot of time during Sunday morning services up in the church balcony, sniggering over Song of Solomon in the pulpit bibles with my fellow teens. I can't believe fundy kids haven't done the same the same thing.

No doubt that there's fundie kids who have done that because all it takes is one to say "hey, read this!" but there's bound to be some that would also have no clue. Especially those who are home churched and Daddy is in charge. No way to hide away with that bible to read the naughtier parts. Can you see a family like the Maxwell's doing that?

[Georgiana]

The thing about Fundie engagements is that once you announce you're engaged, you pretty much have to announce the wedding as well since engagements longer than 3-4 months aren't really done. It isn't like the secular world where the couple has time before people (generally) start asking.

Kelly has said in the past that Michael(a) wants a small, simple, private wedding. She has also said that Brandon wants a large wedding, which is probably what will happen. However, I can see Michael(a) not wanting to announce her engagement until after her wedding so as to retain whatever small amount of privacy and simplicity as she can. I think she would be very, very uncomfortable with Jill/Jessa levels of attention/hoopla on her before/during the big day.

I think we will see it or some mention of it on the show. But I don't think we'll have a full season. I wouldn't be surprised if they announced that Michael and Brandon were married before next season, and then showed bits of the engagement as the season premier.

EDIT TO ADD: M/B remind me too much of the dynamic between David/Pris. I like her, I don't dislike him, but I don't like their dynamic. It just doesn't seem as healthy as the other couples.

[quiversR4hunting]

My suspicion is that Brandon doesn't have a full time paying job at Gothard headquarters--that he only has an internship or something--and they can't marry until he secures paying job. I wonder if (& I hope) this is indicative of Gothard financial problems (if only we could be a fly on the wall in the Pecan Thief's office) I feel sorry for Michael(a) because Kelly tells everyone how desparate she is to marry. On the other hand, I am glad that they just aren't making Brandon become Gil's errand boy, right Ben Bob? and letting them marry!

IIRC someone at recovering grace mentioned that interns (in the past) couldn't datecourt. Maybe now they can court/date but can't get engaged until the intern is done?

As for a job, his family has a farm. There is land around where they live. They live on the North side of Lansing. Lansing area is not a densely populated and Dewitt has a lot of land and North of Dewitt the towns become further apart. (Dewitt and Lansing run into each other, if you didn't now the area you wouldn't know you passed from one city jurisdiction to the next). Of course, this all depends on if he wants to continue with the family business.

It is interesting that his family is also of the women wearing pants and sleeveless fundie version- unless some of his siblings have gotten out of ATI and become fundie-light.

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

(I am pretty sure this has been talked about before). His sister Becky works at Michigan Family Forum and she goes to a real, secular, public community college. michiganfamily.org/staff.htm

Back to Brandon -there are options in Michigan for him to work. Since Lansing is the capital he could get a job with some lobbyist since congress and the governor are all republican. Outside politics there is GM (general motors) manufacturing jobs, DART HQ (make takeout containers), and office jobs that feed the government, etc are all in the area for places to work.

I wonder why they didn't get engaged either. I guess I should watch the Lansing State Journal for engagement announcement or the InghamClinton County clerk for a marriage license (if they decide to have MI wedding). If he does work/intern for gothard HQ - it could be a Northwoods wedding and have everyone stay there. (It would be a trek for everyone. 500 miles Northwest of Dewitt; 900 miles for the Bates)

*edit to hide the picture - I forgot the rules on that but it was taken from a public blog.

**edit the county- DeWitt is in Clinton County, not Ingham. Lansing is in Ingham County.

[HereticHick]

But in the US, couples traditionally marry in the brides "homebase" not the grooms. I'd be very surprised if they didn't marry in Bates turf in East Tennessee. But if Michael(a) does want to keep it small, a "destination wedding" at the Northwoods conference center is a good idea. But could they afford it?