Erin (Bates) Paine is PREGNANT

[lovemygsp]

I have a progesterone defect so have been through this. I'd guess Kelly starts taking progesterone after she ovulates and before a pregnancy is confirmed. We know they chart and we know she has been on progesterone with her last few pregnancies if I remember correct. I know some doctors view this differently but according to mine by the time you realize you are pregnant it could be too late to do anything. My dr. had me on clomid to ovulate stronger then progesterone to substain a possible pregnancy.

[Doormat12345]

I'm just trying to make a case for how a person gets to decide when medical treatments and interventions fall under gods plan. It's not like it is listed out in the bible or anything.

Is it gods plan for every fertilized egg to be carried to full term? In the natural world this isn't the case. Conception doesn't automatically mean a birth. The natural design of our bodies, unless you are possibly michelle duggar, will pass fertilized eggs that do not even inplant in the uterus (for what ever reason). I don't know how accurate the information on this website is

rationalwiki.org/wiki/Spontaneous_abortion_in_humans

But you get the idea that there is a percentage of fertilized eggs that just don't make it.

So when you intervene to START or SUSTAIN a pregnancy what gives you the right to announce that this is gods plan and that you are not just making a medical decision to alter the natural outcome (just like when you take birth control).

[Doormat12345]

I admit that I am viewing this from the perspective of there is no god.

For the purpose of having a million billion babies, no contraception and medical intervention provide the best odds.

I just don't like that they believe the only godly familly planning practices are baby making practices.

[Mama Mia]

I'm just trying to make a case for how a person gets to decide when medical treatments and interventions fall under gods plan. It's not like it is listed out in the bible or anything.

Is it gods plan for every fertilized egg to be carried to full term? In the natural world this isn't the case. Conception doesn't automatically mean a birth. The natural design of our bodies, unless you are possibly michelle duggar, will pass fertilized eggs that do not even inplant in the uterus (for what ever reason). I don't know how accurate the information on this website is

rationalwiki.org/wiki/Spontaneous_abortion_in_humans

But you get the idea that there is a percentage of fertilized eggs that just don't make it.

So when you intervene to START or SUSTAIN a pregnancy what gives you the right to announce that this is gods plan and that you are not just making a medical decision to alter the natural outcome (just like when you take birth control).

I think everyone has agreed that the families we discuss who go with the viewpoint of

"Leaving the Opening and Closing of the Womb up to God" - don't use any artificial means to start a pregnancy ( that they know of) The important distinction point, in this view, would be when sperm meets egg. As soon as sperm meets egg, any steps taken after are done to Sustain the pregnancy.

It's not any different ( in this view) than getting any other kind of medical help. The argument that not all pregnancies are destined to result in live births is no different, for this purpose, than the argument that not every one is meant to live to old age - so why give a sick child antibiotics.

You probably also have people don't go with the " opening and closing womb" line of thought but who strongly believe life begins at conception --- so they could believe fertility treatments like Clomid are fine, because they are increasing your odds of pregnancy. Or NFP or barrier methods are fine, because they purely prevent sperm and egg from meeting -- but wouldn't be ok with any birth control that raises the risk of preventing a fertilized egg from implanting, or IVF because it could result in fertilized eggs being disposed. That just doesn't seem to be the view of the Kind of fundamentalists we talk about here.

The point is that they think life begins at the point of the fertilized egg -- so anything done to preserve the fertilized eggs chances are the same as any other medical intervention.

That part doesn't necessarily have to have anything to do with a belief in God. It's the " only God can open and close the Womb" that adds that in. Someone could believe the same thing but think it should be left up to nature, or luck or destiny.

[roddma]

Without having read all these posts, it is hard being infertile in a baby centric world especially when you have been taught it is your only worth. There are plenty of notable women who never procreated. I got obsessed with TTC and it dawned on me I am under no obligation to anyone to have a kid and I am still human.

[PracticeMakesProgress]

Without having read all these posts, it is hard being infertile in a baby centric world especially when you have been taught it is your only worth. There are plenty of notable women who never procreated. I got obsessed with TTC and it dawned on me I am under no obligation to anyone to have a kid and I am still human.

Exactly. Having just gone to the fertility doc for the first time yesterday, TTC when everyone else around you is knocked up, maybe even on their second blessing, or more in Erin's case, is a gut punch. You are made to feel less of a woman. I am certain Chad and Erin will change from this experience, because you have to in order to maintain your sanity. At least roddma and myself have the opportunity to still find our worth in other ways. What choices does Erin have?

First, Chad will have to maintain a real job with actual benefits so they don't rack up that ebil medical debt. Second, Erin will be pleasantly reminded by her docs and daily needles what a BFD it actually is to be pregnant, and that maybe the laissez-faire attitude towards procreation is more the legalistic interpretation of a man whose clear and sole objective was to control and influence people, and specifically subjugate women (seriously, eternal pregnancy is a GREAT way to ensure the man is in control at all times). Third, wasn't Chad's father an actual MD before he Got-hard and signed the family up for misery? Surely a little of that pagan Hippocratic oath will ooze out, and he will encourage Junior to keep Erin healthy. My greatest hope in all of this, besides a healthy pregnancy and baby, is that they re-examine the situation, make wise choices, and trust the very things they espouse. I can't imagine that a merciful God would kick them out of the pearly gates because Erin did not take her daily aspirin and heparin to dangerously produce a heap of arrows.

[FloraKitty35]

Erin Bates works the big hair look well. J'Uterus reminds me of a middle aged woman stuck on her 80's hair.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

The costs vary widely depending on what one uses. If you do injections like I did (my doctor said Clomid wouldn't work for me), the drugs are a LOT costlier because you need to get syringes and often use multiple vials (I had four) every day, plus the HCG shot, plus 1-2 ultrasounds, plus the IUI itself, sperm washing, etc. If you just take Clomid and get an IUI with no monitoring (which some non-reproductive endocrinologists do), then yeah, it can be cheaper. I went through my treatments about a year after the McCaughey septuplets were born, so multiples were creating a buzz in the infertility community. My repro endo said she felt that multiples meant she didn't do her job properly - singleton pregnancies were her goal. I hoped very much for twins (one and done), but got one. I knew another woman who had one baby with her first assisted pregnancy, then switched doctors and the new doc gave her a lot more meds than she needed and she was pregnant with triplets (although one had a congenital defect and didn't make it, but would have if she had been a singleton). So yeah, WalMart may have Clomid for $10, but if someone is taking it without being monitored, it can be detrimental. A lot of doctors give out Clomid like candy, but my RE (who was very successful) said if it didn't work within three rounds, it wasn't strong enough and she switched her patients to injectible meds. I met women who had taken it in some cases for over a YEAR. That's a lot of hormones to deal with.

Yea, my employer is heavily monitored. Maybe that's where the price difference is? She goes in at least once a week (once a day when she's nearing ovulation). And they do ultrasounds to make sure she doesn't release more than 2 eggs. If she does, they don't do the IUI that cycle.

[Idolatry]

It's really common to take progesterone at the end of your cycle to thicken the uterine lining to encourage implantation. Wouldn't shock me if plenty of fundies have done this.

Birth control works in part by thinning the uterine lining to prevent implantation. It is literally the medical reverse.

As happy as I want to be for Erin, I remember these are still ATI fundies in a down home, aw shucks package. I'm glad this storyline on their TV show is over at least. It was too cruel on everyone.

[Snarkle]

Exactly. Having just gone to the fertility doc for the first time yesterday, TTC when everyone else around you is knocked up, maybe even on their second blessing, or more in Erin's case, is a gut punch. You are made to feel less of a woman. I am certain Chad and Erin will change from this experience, because you have to in order to maintain your sanity. At least roddma and myself have the opportunity to still find our worth in other ways. What choices does Erin have?

I wish you well on your journey, PracticeMakesProgress. The episode where Erin is leading the games for the shower for Whitney really hit home for me. Around the time I had just started seeing a fertility doctor, my cousin's wife was having their first baby and I was helping my mom with a baby shower our family held for the wife at my mom's house. While I was happy for them, I also remember tearing up a little as I was making up food trays and wondering if I'd ever have a kid of my own. It was the unknown more than jealousy that made me sad - so I can imagine what Erin was feeling then. And at the time I was working full-time and nearing completion of my MBA, so I had more going on in my life than just biding my time until my first blessing came along and I fulfilled my ultimate purpose like Erin is. She may be an excellent piano teacher and player, but if your culture says your womb is your greatest asset and it fails you, then yeah, it's infinitely worse.

[ILoveJellybeans]

Yay, so happy for Erin. I wish her a safe pregnancy and delivery :)

[Closed Womb]

My gosh, THIS, so much! I never understood how was tampering with a woman's body in order to get her pregnant "up to God"?! And exactly, if they condemn people who use birth control, how do they have the guts to ask for fertility treatment? Shameless hypocrisy.

Speaking as a former fundie-lite church goer, it was pretty much acceptable to try to attain your goals (assuming they were not contrary to what God wants), with the knowledge that God is ultimately in control. Now, of course, what "God wants" is a bit different among the different groups. I was generally going to non-denominational churches and there was no problem with women being educated, working, controlling the size of their family, etc.

But, if someone wanted kids -- lots of them, even -- the attitude was that it was certainly okay to plan, try, use the means available to you, but God would not let 'it' happen (treatment, adoption, whatever) if it wasn't meant to be. Usually some trait would be assigned to you if you weren't getting what you hoped/prayed for. Like, I got married in my mid-30s and many said God was teaching me patience or something like that. People would said infertile couples are learning compassion or need time to be together or were meant for other things, like the mission field. All BS analysis, naturally. But always 100% okay to go after whatever you wanted, as long as it wasn't against God's written word.

Pretty much the same thing in every other aspect of life. I'm not a church-goer anymore, but those I'm still in touch with truly believe it is God's plan that I'm a young(ish) widow. I didn't do anything wrong (of course) in seeking out a husband. We didn't do anything wrong in getting him medical treatment. But, ultimately, God has a plan and we were only "meant" to be married for a short time. (Side note: the most offensive thing said to me in the last few months is that "Jesus needed Mr. Womb in Heaven." Because, even if there is a literal belief in the Bible, nothing can support that stupid statement.)

And, it can't be overstated, Cherin was trying to STAY pregnant through medical means, not get pregnant.

[roddma]

If they are using intervention to stay pregnant, wouldn't that be the same as intervening in "God's will'? I can understand doing everything possible to sustain a pregnancy, but it just seems hypocritical to me when you say "God is in control' of it all and shun chemical birth control but permit unnatural ways to sustain a pregnancy.. By that logic, birth control would not stop God.

[actuallyjessica]

If they are using intervention to stay pregnant, wouldn't that be the same as intervening in "God's will'? I can understand doing everything possible to sustain a pregnancy, but it just seems hypocritical to me when you say "God is in control' of it all and shun chemical birth control but permit unnatural ways to sustain a pregnancy.. By that logic, birth control would not stop God.

No, because if it were "God's will" to remain infertile then fertility treatments would fail.

[Mama Mia]

I am really not getting why people have such a hard time distinguishing the difference between fertility treatments - which are used to help you GET pregnant, and medical treatment to help you STAY pregnant??? :?

They just aren't the same thing.

Or why people think that them getting medical treatment to sustain a pregnancy is hypocritical if they say they believe everything " is God's will". but aren't surprised if they get medical care for infants. Or get a job so they don't starve to death. Or any of the other bazillion actions people take to stay alive and raise children.

It's like if the larger subject was fruit. And fundamentalists said " I don't believe in eating apples because that was the downfall of Humans and God forbid it" . They then blog about enjoying a banana for lunch. And eleventy people call them hypocrites for eating bananas because it's a fruit.

And

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

If they are using intervention to stay pregnant, wouldn't that be the same as intervening in "God's will'? I can understand doing everything possible to sustain a pregnancy, but it just seems hypocritical to me when you say "God is in control' of it all and shun chemical birth control but permit unnatural ways to sustain a pregnancy.. By that logic, birth control would not stop God.

I have to say I don't follow your logic. Staying pregnant is a lot different than getting pregnant. Their beliefs are consistent. They believe life begins at conception. Conception happens before implantation (you need conception for an egg to implant).

What you're implying is a pray it away method. These people might be crazy fundies but they arent THOSE crazy fundies. Being unable to sustain a pregnancy is no different than being unable to fight a disease on your own. It was god's will that you get pregnant, it's your job to ensure that pregnancy turns into a child and that child grows up to be an adult.

[ncb]

My employer is currently doing IUI and a very low dose of clomid. Her insurance covers it, so she doesn't have to worry about the cost; but without the insurance, it would cost her $10000 a cycle. I couldn't imagine one of these fundie families shelling out $10k a month just to get pregnant..

An IUI shouldn't be that expensive. Clomid is cheap. I was inseminated via IUI 7 years ago (we are a two-mom family) and without insurance and with the cost of sperm, it was still only $1500/cycle.

[Firiel]

I am really not getting why people have such a hard time distinguishing the difference between fertility treatments - which are used to help you GET pregnant, and medical treatment to help you STAY pregnant??? :?

They just aren't the same thing.

Or why people think that them getting medical treatment to sustain a pregnancy is hypocritical if they say they believe everything " is God's will". but aren't surprised if they get medical care for infants. Or get a job so they don't starve to death. Or any of the other bazillion actions people take to stay alive and raise children.

It's like if the larger subject was fruit. And fundamentalists said " I don't believe in eating apples because that was the downfall of Humans and God forbid it" . They then blog about enjoying a banana for lunch. And eleventy people call them hypocrites for eating bananas because it's a fruit.

QFT.

I'm not sure what is so difficult to grasp. Sustaining a pregnancy through medical means = saving a life through medical means to them. They have never had theological issues with getting people needed medical care. Gil talks about going to the emergency room.

[Mama Mia]

An IUI shouldn't be that expensive. Clomid is cheap. I was inseminated via IUI 7 years ago (we are a two-mom family) and without insurance and with the cost of sperm, it was still only $1500/cycle.

I said it up thread. But I'm saying it again, cause it's pretty important for people to know. Costs for the EXACT same procedures vary wildly, and pointlessly, between providers.

Here's an article. It's pretty shocking. :shock:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/won ... her-38000/

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

I said it up thread. But I'm saying it again, cause it's pretty important for people to know. Costs for the EXACT same procedures vary wildly, and pointlessly, between providers.

Here's an article. It's pretty shocking. :shock:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/won ... her-38000/

And, I said it upthread, but I think part of the cost is that she's heavily monitored. I mean I'm not sure since I don't see the exact breakdown of costs or anything; but she's in there at least once a week and the week of ovulation, she's in every day. And they do ultrasounds to make sure the eggs are viable and there arent more than 2 released.

[nelliebelle1197]

I am really not getting why people have such a hard time distinguishing the difference between fertility treatments - which are used to help you GET pregnant, and medical treatment to help you STAY pregnant??? :?

They just aren't the same thing.

Or why people think that them getting medical treatment to sustain a pregnancy is hypocritical if they say they believe everything " is God's will". but aren't surprised if they get medical care for infants. Or get a job so they don't starve to death. Or any of the other bazillion actions people take to stay alive and raise children.

It's like if the larger subject was fruit. And fundamentalists said " I don't believe in eating apples because that was the downfall of Humans and God forbid it" . They then blog about enjoying a banana for lunch. And eleventy people call them hypocrites for eating bananas because it's a fruit.

And

I understand both sides of this argument. If losing the baby is god's will, then anything you do is thwarting god's will. Think of all the people who refuse treatment for cancer for themselves or their kids and rely on faith. That is the train of thought doormat is following.

That is not the train that the QFs follow. Theirs is more the every sperm is sacred mindset. Many of them like ZooZoo are vehemently against IVF or anything close. But they will go all out to save the fertilized egg and believe that God gave medical science to save the zygotes.

It is two different faith philosophies and two different groups. I am actually not sure why that was so hard to see.

[kat]

I will require time in the prayer closet for posting this.

Use discretion for innocent/delicate ears and workplace. It's Monty Python.

link not broken since it's youtube

[RosyDaisy]

I hope for a safe pregnancy and birth and health for Erin and the baby.

And for a baby-step away from the Quiverfull ideology and parenting techniques.

I honestly think this experience will make Erin and Chad reevaluate their views on family size.

[LovelyLuna]

I wish her a H&H 9 months. hopefully they will be good parents. I’m willing to withhold judgement for now.

[Ursula]

Bleh, I don't like any of these people having children ever but I don't wish infertility and certainly not miscarriages on them. Such a double edged sword. So I hope she has a healthy and safe as possible pregnancy and goes to term. I do have soooo many questions regarding their stance on birth control and what happens after Erin gives birth to this child. If her pregnancy is really hard on her body, that high risk, would it be wise for them to conceive again as soon as her cycle comes back? Given these people's beliefs that's either going to happen or her and Chad will have to remain celibate for a period of time. What will they do if doctors say they need to space pregnancies? What will they do if they're told to NEVER conceive again because it would be extremely dangerous? For the record, based on how much Chad seems to love and adore Erin, I can see him volunteering to get neutered to protect her but that goes so against everything they've been taught what their god wants. So many questions that will never be answered because it is a very private matter but goddamn am I curious.

And I have to bring this up....is anyone else shocked by how easily Erin seems to conceive? She apparently had three positive pregnancy tests in the span of less than a year (she clearly got pregnant with this one before their first anniversary). That's even counting the D&C pregnancy which would have spanned over two, possibly three fertile cycles if she hadn't been already pregnant. Even if the other two were positive pregnancy tests before her period was due and she ended up getting her period around its due date anyway, that still means an egg was fertilized, just didn't implant because of her clotting issues, I'd assume? So when you factor in all that time she pretty much got her egg fertilized by Chad's sperm nearly every fertile period she's had since they've been married (until she got pregnant and it stuck). HOLY. SHIT.