Women are ruining the Catholic Church

[Cleopatra7]

Cardinal Raymond Burke, he of the manly lace and silk, wants a manly church for manly men, and we ladies are just ruining everything for the fellows:

http://www.newemangelization.com/uncate ... -about-it/

Some choice highlights:

The Church becomes very feminized. Women are wonderful, of course. They respond very naturally to the invitation to be active in the Church. Apart from the priest, the sanctuary has become full of women. The activities in the parish and even the liturgy have been influenced by women and have become so feminine in many places that men do not want to get involved.

Men are often reluctant to become active in the Church. The feminized environment and the lack of the Church’s effort to engage men has led many men to simply opt out.

But despite this onslaught of radical feminist on the Catholic church, who actually runs this institution? Not a woman in sight. The decline in priestly vocations has more to do with the secularization and the abuse scandal than anything women have or have not been doing. I don't feel like women can win with conservatives like Burke, since we are blamed for "feminizing" the church when we are active believers and then blamed for being selfish hedonists when we leave. :angry-banghead:

[jerkit]

Maybe Cabinetman should reconsider his Lutheranism

[Four is Enough]

The Roman Catholic Church's hierarchy is and always will be the "old boys" club. Pope Francis has said it himself that women will never become priests.

MEN hold all key positions, and women are "permitted to serve". So from the Altar Guild, to the Choir loft, to the Rectory cleaning and meal prep, to the finance office, appointment making/reminding, to the teaching, (for the most part, except in the "high end" schools where men can make real money teaching) to the coaching, accounting, and even bus driving, women have stepped up and done the heavy lifting. Raymond Cardinal Burke, you are a fucking idiot.

ETA: THe Catholic Church has ALWAYS endorsed the Male-female family, with the woman working at home and the man earning "the" money. So women have always had a big presence in and around the parishes. However, they're doing more now, like being Eucharistic Ministers, lectors, cantors, and so on, including taking communion to shut ins and invalids, because there aren't a lot of men who have enough time and inclination to do more. Because, let me tell you. Once the RCC gets its hooks into a man, they pull and pull and pull.

Don't get me wrong. I'm all for a man or a woman being a participant in parish activities. It's what builds community. But let a man express interest in the Knights of Colombus or the Holy Name Society. Next thing you know, he's being asked to sit on the parish council. So now he has work, family, Holy Name, Council, AND he coaches his kid's soccer team, or maybe just has to go take his kid to and from practice. Guess what gets left? Right. The parish sucks and sucks and sucks... and the men are actually afraid to get started in one thing for fear of being "at church" seven days a week.

[acheronbeach]

I've been in plenty of Catholic churches and they're full of men. The overwhelming majority of Catholics (in Canada at least) - both MEN and WOMEN in the church - want women priests. Hell, most Catholics in Canada want the church to marry gays and lesbians.

http://blogs.vancouversun.com/2013/03/0 ... sexuality/

[Firiel]

Maybe Cabinetman should reconsider his Lutheranism

Yeah, except for this cardinal at least claims to think that women are wonderful. According to Cabinetman, he's part of the problem.

[anjulibai]

This type of attitude is why Francis demoted the guy. He has only a ceremonial position in the Church now.

[salex]

But, KC has a Catholic Woman Priest (AKA a Protestant, she just isnt' acknowledging it yet... )

KANSAS CITY, MO (KCTV) -

A Kansas City woman who is calling for changes in the Catholic church took part in a ceremony to become an ordained priest.

Georgia Walker ceremony was held Saturday at the Saint Mark Hope and Peace Lutheran Church, 3800 Troost Ave.. . . . .

The 67-year-old wants the Catholic church to welcome gays, lesbians, people who are remarried and others - which is why she says she decided to become a priest. However, there is still a rule that only baptized men can be priests.

So she joined the Association of Roman Catholic Women Priests, a group within the Catholic Church. Instead of leaving the church, they hope to change it from within. From there she started her journey to become Kansas City's first female Catholic priest.

In some cases, ordained women priests have been handed formal excommunication paperwork immediately following the ceremony.

Read more: http://www.kctv5.com/story/27755601/wom ... z3OFR8Myk2

Of course, a while back, KS had their own pope .... chosen by his parents and a tiny (tiny) congregation of Catholics (also Protestants in denial)

vaticaninexile.com/

(documentary ... I guess I should watch it) /popemichaelfilm.com/

[Four is Enough]

I have at least four female friends who are "ordained Catholic Priests".. and when you talk to them, their ordinations came at the hands of either defrocked priests, or priests of the "independent Catholic Church" or the "celtic catholic church"... which, at some recess of time, had priests who left mainstream Catholicism to begin their own churches, basically, but since there is that one little link, they insist they're Catholic priests.

Martin Luther and Henry VIII did something similar.. at least they were honest enough to say they were leaving the RCC.

[Cleopatra7]

I have at least four female friends who are "ordained Catholic Priests".. and when you talk to them, their ordinations came at the hands of either defrocked priests, or priests of the "independent Catholic Church" or the "celtic catholic church"... which, at some recess of time, had priests who left mainstream Catholicism to begin their own churches, basically, but since there is that one little link, they insist they're Catholic priests.

Martin Luther and Henry VIII did something similar.. at least they were honest enough to say they were leaving the RCC.

I have heard of some female Catholic priests who say they were ordained in secret by sympathetic male bishops in the mainstream RCC. The reasoning is that because the male priests are validly ordained in apostolic succession that they can licitly ordain anyone they want. This is actually the same reasoning used by the SSPX when the question comes up about whether it is okay to attend masses at SSPX chapels. However, at the end of the day, I think that whether a person is validly ordained depends on your theological definition of "ordained."

[BrownieMomma]

I have heard this assertion in regards to Southern Baptist churches as well, that church has become too feminine, that women are so invested and involved that men feel it is a "woman" thing to go to church.

Over the years there was always that small cluster of women who come to church while hubs sits at home, usually they are bringing children they desperately hope to bring up in the faith... but its kinda hard when the kids grow up with church as a "Mom" thing and not a "Dad" thing.

I would not say that is the new norm tho. I am pretty sure those husbands not coming to church had little to do with a feminine perception of the church but probably more reasons such as not having belief.

[salex]

When I was a kid, the number of widows in the pews, combined with the women who came to church while their husbands stayed home gave women an edge in numbers.

There a many reasons. Some women have no other acceptable social outlet, while men often did/do.

But, since CM says he only goes to church 70 percent of the time, he is part of the problem, not part of the solution.

[doggie]

The only people that ruin the church are Christians.

[Cleopatra7]

It seems like women have been going to church more than men for a long time. Even during the Roman Empire, Christianity was dismissed as a religion for "slaves and women." There is a famous Norman Rockwell painting from the "good old days" that depicts a mother preparing her children for church, while hubby lounges around with the newpaper and the little boy looks on enviously:

http://www.saturdayeveningpost.com/2012 ... nt/9590516 (link not broken because its a secular site)

I think it is because of the "church, kitchen, children" ideal that states that piety is a virtue that is particularly important for women, especially mothers. In comparison, being impious does not take away from a man's sense of manhood. Since men make all of the decisions in the Catholic church, it seems like Burke only has himself and his confreres to blame if things aren't the way he wants them to be.

[misslady]

Plus, "The Emangelization Project"!

www.cruxnow.com/church/2015/01/07/cardinal-raymond-burke-feminized-church-and-altar-girls-caused-priest-shortage/

“Young boys don’t want to do things with girls. It’s just natural,†Burke said in an interview published Monday. “I think that this has contributed to a loss of priestly vocations."

[samurai_sarah]

Plus, "The Emangelization Project"!

www.cruxnow.com/church/2015/01/07/cardi ... -shortage/

More "women-blaming", who's surprised? :| :roll: Some days, I wish I had all the magical powers ascribed to me! But here I am, an ordinary human being. Not expecting a letter from Hogwarts', but a pizza delivery.

P.S.: misslady, this is not directed against you. I'm generally fed up.

[misslady]

Darn it, I searched before I posted, I swear.

I do especially love the picture they used with the article, too.

[AnywhereButHere]

Burke said he recalled “young men telling me that they were, in a certain way, frightened by marriage because of the radicalizing and self-focused attitudes of women that were emerging at that time. These young men were concerned that entering a marriage would simply not work because of a constant and insistent demanding of rights for women.â€

So, real men can't handle being challenged inellectually. Explains a lot about the pople that hold this thinking and who they choose to surround themselves with.

Burke, a liturgical traditionalist as well as a doctrinal conservative who is renowned for wearing elaborate silk and lace vestments while celebrating Mass, also said that “men need to dress and act like men in a way that is respectful to themselves, to women, and to children.â€

His entire viewpoint is disrespectful to women, children and for that matter, normal men.

[FloraKitty35]

Cardinal Burke is Holy .

[Sundaymorning]

Cardinal Raymond Burke, he of the manly lace and silk, wants a manly church for manly men, and we ladies are just ruining everything for the fellows:

http://www.newemangelization.com/uncate ... -about-it/

Some choice highlights:

But despite this onslaught of radical feminist on the Catholic church, who actually runs this institution? Not a woman in sight. The decline in priestly vocations has more to do with the secularization and the abuse scandal than anything women have or have not been doing. I don't feel like women can win with conservatives like Burke, since we are blamed for "feminizing" the church when we are active believers and then blamed for being selfish hedonists when we leave. :angry-banghead:

Well, I'm not Catholic, although our church and theirs will worship or have some other event together sometimes. And regarding "women feminizing the church", well, sure they are usually the ones who voluntarily cook the food for the gatherings that take place after service, and clean up afterwards. They bring the tea and the cake to the joint senior citizens event afternoons, they make the decorations, clean up stuff, teach and look after children and such. Men chould join in too, but somehow, they usually aren't so keen to bake cakes and entertain senior citizens during their free time. And to some, this might sound weird, but for many older widowed ladies and men, those senior lunches and afternoons are the highlights of their week. The church just takes the womens free hard work and expenses for granted, and it's not like that they could ever take part in an important discussion or decision, cause that is the priviledge of the male clergy members.

Cardinal Burke should be ashamed of himself. Without the women, most churches would be screwed, cause all the beloved social activities like boardgame afternoon with tea and cake for everyone, or the childrens Sunday school would fall into water. Wonder if he would find enough men who would be willing to step in. Cause those are the activities many church goers look forward to the most when they think about church.

[Foudeb]

Sounds like the RCC should take steps against this anti-man discrimination by having fewer women on the top, maybe instauring quotas of maximum 50% female bishops / archbishops / cardinals. Who knows, if we get enough men into higher decision-making positions, attitudes could change and one day we might even have a male Pope!

....oh wait.

[BrownieMomma]

Re-reading the OP a bit later...

I wonder what activities he means. From what I know of the local Catholic church, the ladies have plenty to keep busy but also the Knights of Columbus are active and prominent in the community.

I wonder how he's seeing church life as feminized.

[Palimpsest]

Burke by name; berk by nature.

Yes, he was demoted last November. christianpost.com/news/pope-francis-removes-conservative-us-cardinal-burke-from-vatican-post-129389/

[FaustianSlip]

Yawn. There are some people (almost always Orthodox, usually in the process of annoucing the death of non-Orthodox Judaism or in talking about why men decide to become Orthodox) who make this same argument about Conservative and Reform Judaism. It all boils down to saying, "But- but- it's not special if women can do it, too! And if it's not special, men won't want to do it!" Frankly, if your only way to make yourself feel like a big, strong man is by keeping women out of your clubhouse, I'm kind of okay with you not coming to church or shul. Who wants someone like that around, anyway?

As far as the Catholic church specifically, a part of me would love to see Catholic women read what Burke has to say, go, "Okay, have it your way," and immediately stop being active parish members. Don't go to Mass, don't put money in the offering plate, don't arrange the flowers for the altar, don't help serve coffee hour or sing in the choir or do anything at all, really. Just sit at home, sleep in on Sunday and wait. They'll be singing a different tune very quickly indeed if the women start staying home en masse, because I very much doubt that the men who are already disinterested in church are suddenly going to start showing up to make up for it.

[samurai_sarah]

I have heard of some female Catholic priests who say they were ordained in secret by sympathetic male bishops in the mainstream RCC. The reasoning is that because the male priests are validly ordained in apostolic succession that they can licitly ordain anyone they want. This is actually the same reasoning used by the SSPX when the question comes up about whether it is okay to attend masses at SSPX chapels. However, at the end of the day, I think that whether a person is validly ordained depends on your theological definition of "ordained."

There is another way to become a female Catholic priest. It's by going "Old Catholic" or "Old Order Catholic". The Old Catholic Church split mainly over the issue of papal infallibility (they started back in 1853). The Roman Catholic Church recognises the Old Catholic Church, with the exception of female ordination. And blessing-ceremonies for same-sex weddings. Old Catholicism is a mainly Germanic and Dutch speaking movement, with some inroads into the US. Small, but a driving force behind ecumenical understanding. And a more progressive Catholic church, despite the name.

But as you, Cleopatra, said, it depends on your theological definition of "ordained".

[fun2beme]

Is the cardinal aware that the church is referred to as "she"?