Bringing Up Bates

[Rachel333]

I think you can like things about the Bateses and still realize how toxic their beliefs and practices are, but one thing that did crack me up was how much praise Kelly got on here for seeming like she was concerned when Lawson got into a wreck. Compared to other fundie parents I suppose that is good, but it seems our standards for parenting are really low. :lol:

[formergothardite]

Maybe this is a product of their kids' birth order and genders (ie no pack of older girls a la Duggars) but I think hands down that Kelly is a better mother than Michelle. She actually spends time with her kids (that is not staged by producers) and does not hand them off to siblings to raise.

There was an episode of 19 kids where one of the younger Duggar girls got glasses (Jordyn or Jennifer) and Michelle took her. From the looks on the kid's face, it gave me the vibe that a distant aunt was taking her as opposed to her mother. (I do think Jim Bob is a better father than Michelle is mother, at least to the younger kids).

The other major difference is that the Bates parents seem to embrace their kids differences and accept them. Jana only participated in midwifery because of Jill, not because of her own interest. Kelly didn't make Erin have a chaperon with her when she taught piano. The Bates kids have the opportunity to go to a brick and mortar college, even if it's an unaccredited Bible college. And the Bates kids actually do set their own courtship rules (I don't believe for one second the Duggar kids do as all 3 have had the same rules).

How exactly do you know that she spends more time with her kids than Michelle? She can't name her children, she assigns them buddies before they are even born and she uses the buddy system just like Michelle. None of us are actually there, sure she is going to portray herself as an involved mother on her blog and show, but how do you really know she is more involved?

Gil and Kelly embrace their children's differences and accept them? :lol: As long as they are ATI approved differences. Zach is the closest one to doing anything slightly different and I suspect that the failed courtship made them feel a little guilty so they gave him more slack. He still is staying well within the fold. The Bates kids set their own courtship rules? Again, as long as those rules are approved by Gil and Kelly. They might give their kids more limited options than Jim Bob and Michelle give their children to give the illusion of choice.

[Firiel]

I think you can like things about the Bateses and still realize how toxic their beliefs and practices are, but one thing that did crack me up was how much praise Kelly got on here for seeming like she was concerned when Lawson got into a wreck. Compared to other fundie parents I suppose that is good, but it seems our standards for parenting are really low. :lol:

When you follow Lori Alexander regularly, a mother being worried about her child DOES seem pretty amazing! :lol:

[nelliebelle1197]

When you follow Lori Alexander regularly, a mother being worried about her child DOES seem pretty amazing! :lol:

You poor baby. You need a detox.

[formergothardite]

I think if we had an honest look at their lives we would find that Kelly beats Michelle in some ways but the Michelle beats Kelly in others, but all in all, they don't parent that differently. I think that if they could have the 20th child both would jump at it in a second even if they knew doing so would negatively impact their children.

And compared to Lori and Jill both Kelly and Michelle look like awesome parents. :lol:

I was looking back at old threads about the Bates and there is one titled "I officially hate the Bates family". Gil and Kelly certainly did not come off as likeable when TLC was in charge of their script. :lol:

[tabitha2]

When we find out one of the children made a choice to do something out of the ATI approved mold and they let that person be their own person and still treat them the same as the others with no shaming or judgment I will see them as different than the Duggars. Have not seen it yet. Wearing pants is not something to get all excited about, Plenty of Christian fundamentalists wear pants occasionally or even regularly. If a Batesling went to Gil and said she wanted to go to a regular country music concert to see Reba and drive by themselves, do you seriously think he would allow it much less go to a regular community college on their own?

[Firiel]

I think if we had an honest look at their lives we would find that Kelly beats Michelle in some ways but the Michelle beats Kelly in others, but all in all, they don't parent that differently. I think that if they could have the 20th child both would jump at it in a second even if they knew doing so would negatively impact their children.

And compared to Lori and Jill both Kelly and Michelle look like awesome parents. :lol:

I was looking back at old threads about the Bates and there is one titled "I officially hate the Bates family". Gil and Kelly certainly did not come off as likeable when TLC was in charge of their script. :lol:

I've seen some talk about the "great" TLC edit that the Duggars get. It's quite possible their edit isn't as great as we all think. The Bateses' show is produced by a Christian television network. We know they are getting a favorable cut. Maybe the positive edit the Duggars get with TLC isn't as intentionally and misleadingly positive as some have assumed. I suspect the Duggars, if they had a Christian network supporting them, would probably look better than they do on TLC.

I want to state that I'm not saying the Duggars get a bad edit with TLC at all... just that they are likely not getting the positive edit the Bateses are and it might not be as purposefully positive as we think.

Also, I do think Erin hit the jackpot getting Chad as a fundie husband. He seems like a very nice, caring young man who just doesn't/can't think critically about his upbringing and accepts it because that's all he's ever known.

[formergothardite]

Michael does seem to be going to a community college. I do think though, that a lot of this has to do with the Gil and Kelly having totally different situations to deal with than Jim Bob and Michelle, not Gil and Kelly being nicer, more open minded people. I suspect that if Josh's courtship had ended with a public failure like Zach's did the following courtships would be different.

[Sundaymorning]

I think if we had an honest look at their lives we would find that Kelly beats Michelle in some ways but the Michelle beats Kelly in others, but all in all, they don't parent that differently. I think that if they could have the 20th child both would jump at it in a second even if they knew doing so would negatively impact their children.

And compared to Lori and Jill both Kelly and Michelle look like awesome parents. :lol:

I was looking back at old threads about the Bates and there is one titled "I officially hate the Bates family". Gil and Kelly certainly did not come off as likeable when TLC was in charge of their script. :lol:

If you compare the Bates with the Duggars, they seem a bit more likeable to me. That might be cause of better editing and acting for the public, or they really might be a bit better. However, that doesn't mean that they aren't followers and promoters of a very dangerous cult, whose schemings and ploys have to be exposed to the public.

You can always find someone who is even worse than someone else. Like, are the Duggars a bit better than PP and ZsuZsu? Yes, I think they are. But that doesn't make them any less harmful.

[tabitha2]

I should clarify go to community college for a course load that will eventually lead to degree that will lead to a career something not fundie tested, fundie approved she plans to have and actually continue... she gets married, we never here more said on the matter I bet money on it.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

When we find out one of the children made a choice to do something out of the ATI approved mold and they let that person be their own person and still treat them the same as the others with no shaming or judgment I will see them as different than the Duggars. Have not seen it yet. Wearing pants is not something to get all excited about, Plenty of Christian fundamentalists wear pants occasionally or even regularly. If a Batesling went to Gil and said she wanted to go to a regular country music concert to see Reba and drive by themselves, do you seriously think he would allow it much less go to a regular community college on their own?

Honestly, I have no idea whether Kelly and Gil would allow them to go to a country music concert; but I'd be willing to be they'd allow it before JB and Michelle would.

On another note, I wouldn't like the idea of any of the girls or boys going to a concert alone (as your post implies) for the same reason I wouldn't like the idea of anyone going to a concert alone. There's too much chance for something bad to happen if you don't have someone with you. I'd never in a million years go to a concert without someone with me. And I definitely wouldn't approve of hypothetical children doing it either.

[Mama Mia]

Going off-topic -- but what bad things would happen to a young adult at a concert? I could see it being an issue with kids or young teens. But an adult? What's the issue? Just wondering.

[calimojo]

well, I am an old adult and I was pick pocketed at a concert and thrown up on by a perfect stranger. I had drugs passed down my row for any one to help themselves to as it moved down the aisle. I witnessed people snorting coke and or other white powdery substances and had a drugged out crazy person get in my face because they thought I cut in front of them in the line for the bathroom.

So yes, a very sheltered young adult going to a concert alone, is probably not a good idea. I do think, however, that the Bates would allow their older kids to go to a non-Christian based country concert.

When you watch the video clips of "Name that Bates", you can instantly tell that the dynamic between the parents and children in that home is drastically different from the dynamics between JB/M and their kids.

When you see JB or M in a one on one conversation with their kids, it is almost always awkward and stiff. Where as with the Bates, it feels much more natural. The kids are at ease and they can gently tease and laugh at one another. It would appear that even on some things, the kids can directly disagree with the parents, though I imagine that varies depending on the topic.

I am not debating that Kelly and Gil have harmful beliefs, and that by their commitment to IBLP, ATI, Gothard etc that they have condoned Gothard's behavior, and have willingly promoted values that work to keep women oppressed and deny the rights of many others. This is all true.

But, just as a family, they are clearly warmer and more tolerant of their kids having some variance from a very strict QF attitude. I don't think they expect their kids to live a cookie cutter life to the life they have lived. I think they hope the kids will remain within the fold, but understand that many of them will make some different choices. I don't get the impression that Michelle or JB would be ok with that.

In fact, the heat the Jessa is getting from some of the leghumpers about wearing pants or leggings, is probably not making JB and M very happy. I imagine them telling Jessa to knock it off. Whether Jessa decides to do that or not, who knows. Where as with Gil and Kelly, I could imagine them saying, Alyssa is an adult married woman and her manner of dress is now a decision for she and her husband to make, not ours.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

Going off-topic -- but what bad things would happen to a young adult at a concert? I could see it being an issue with kids or young teens. But an adult? What's the issue? Just wondering.

One of my friends (who was in college at the time) went to a concert alone and ended up getting raped. I've had friends who were trampled during mosh pits (at concerts were "moshing" doesn't even seem to be appropriate -- one of them was at a Brad Paisley concert). I've had friends who have been groped and felt up at concerts. I've had friends who were mugged at concerts. I personally almost got mugged leaving a concert (thankfully, the people I was with rounded the corner at the right moment). I had friends who had their first experience with drugs while at a concert because the people who were next to them offered the drugs to them. I've had men try to convince me to leave the concert with them and "get a drink at their place."

I don't even have male friends who would go to concerts alone because they, too, don't feel it's safe to do so.

edited for clarity and because I accidentally typed the same word twice in a row.

[calimojo]

I was a bit of a nervous wreck when my daughter went to Lollapalooza. Luckily for me and my anxiety about her safety, she quickly found out that it wasn't her scene. She doesn't like big crowds and hates using porta-potties and hates to be hot and over heated. So after the novelty of being at the festival wore off, she was pretty miserable and won't go back again. She took the younger daughter of a friend to go see see Taylor Swift as a favor, and again, had a nasty time. They had nosebleed seats, the crowd noise was so overwhelming they couldn't hear the music and the younger girl, was so nervous with the rowdy crowd that they ended up leaving early. My daughter's good friend went to see Miley Cyrus recently and said the drugs were everywhere. And people were stripping off their clothes. I personally wouldn't find the nudity too shocking, but I really hate being around people taking drugs. They are obnoxious, inconsiderate, and unpredictable.

So I just can't imagine a sheltered Fundie kid going alone to a big show. It would just reinforce the very worst they believe about being "of the world".

[formergothardite]

My point about people assuming the worst for Jim bob and Michelle while assuming the best about Gil and Kelly is pretty much being made. People assume that Jim bob is upset with Jessa and that Gil and Kelly are more tolerant of differences, including going to a concert that would contain music with a back-beat, something that Gothard teaches is a horrific sin and would bring demons into their home.

Gil and Kelly are loyal and mindless Gothard followers to the point that Gil was hand picked by Gothard to serve on the BoD. Their children have stayed on the ATI approved path. If I was going to create the perfect ATI family to help revamp the program it would be this family. They are attractive, personable, followed a diversity of ATI paths and give off the appearance of tolerance and acceptance. People want to believe the best of them.

the Duggars seem stilted, people can't help but be reminded of their strange beliefs and all the adult children have pretty much seemed to plan their lives around being on reality television. They, or at least how they are edited, make people want to believe the worst of them.

If I was going to guess which father would be more accepting of a child doing something that is the ultimate sin like going to a concert that has music with a back beat, I would guess Jim bob just based on him not being a loyal and mindless enough ATI father to get on the BoD.

[GeoBQn]

I had a great experience seeing Flight of the Conchords, but that might be a bit different . . .

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

My point about people assuming the worst for Jim bob and Michelle while assuming the best about Gil and Kelly is pretty much being made. People assume that Jim bob is upset with Jessa and that Gil and Kelly are more tolerant of differences, including going to a concert that would contain music with a back-beat, something that Gothard teaches is a horrific sin and would bring demons into their home.

Gil and Kelly are loyal and mindless Gothard followers to the point that Gil was hand picked by Gothard to serve on the BoD. Their children have stayed on the ATI approved path. If I was going to create the perfect ATI family to help revamp the program it would be this family. They are attractive, personable, followed a diversity of ATI paths and give off the appearance of tolerance and acceptance. People want to believe the best of them.

the Duggars seem stilted, people can't help but be reminded of their strange beliefs and all the adult children have pretty much seemed to plan their lives around being on reality television. They, or at least how they are edited, make people want to believe the worst of them.

If I was going to guess which father would be more accepting of a child doing something that is the ultimate sin like going to a concert that has music with a back beat, I would guess Jim bob just based on him not being a loyal and mindless enough ATI father to get on the BoD.

I don't think "the worst" of JB and Michelle and "the best" of Kelly and Gil. I just think, based on their personal track records, that Kelly and Gil would be MORE likely to allow their children to listen to secular music than JB and Michelle. I mean, look at Jinger's comment about wanting to live in a city and Michelle's blatant "she doesn't want that, she wants what we want for her." Or how Josh always wanted to be a lawyer, but was never given that opportunity by his parents. Conversely, each of the courting Bateses actually did get to set their own rules (something the Duggars preach but never show); and many of their children have taken college classes that didn't include college minus.

It's not say that Kelly and Gil are given a free pass or that they're amazing parents, just that they have shown to be more tolerant towards their children's desires than JB and Michelle. Now, I'm all for JB and Michelle coming out and doing something that proves me wrong. I would love that. But, until such time, I will say that I wouldn't be surprised if Kelly and Gil allowed their children to listen to secular music, but I would be if the Michelle and JB made the same concession.

[formergothardite]

Have any of the Bates children said that they want to do something that ISN'T ATI approved? We have seen considerable less of the Bates and don't really know if any of them actually wanted things that their parents didn't deny them opportunity to do. We know that they pretty much shut down the idea of Erin taking the scholarship for the secular college in favor of her going to one that is approved. The Duggar kids have admitted that they desire things outside the ATI approved hedge of protection, the Bates kids have only publically admitted that they want to do things that their parents already approve of.

Even when courting the Bates only chose ATI and parent approved rules. Zach was the one who got a little more leeway and then he felt so guilty that he had to go confess, which should show how fucked up he has been raised.

I just think that Gil and Kelly are good at giving the illusion that they are tolerant and give their children choices. All their children have stuck exactly to the ATI path and have made sure they never said anything in public that admits they want anything outside ATI options. Gil and Kelly's track record is all their kids have stayed in the ATI hedge of protection without ever publically making it known that they might desire something else. Their track record is being the fucking perfect ATI family.

Gil and Kelly have only shown tolerance and acceptance when their children chose things that do not contradict the ATI lifestyle. They have never, from what I can tell, shown tolerance of anything outside of that. The don't actually have a better track record than Jim Bob and Michelle.

I actually find is suspicious that none of the Bates children have ever desired anything that isn't ATI approve.

[19 cats and counting]

It would be interesting to see what would happen if the kids had a non ATI approved hobby/talent. I think most here would agree that Erin is very talented at piano. But what if her instrument had been drums (music with a beat)? What if Lawson wanted to release a rap album? What if one of the girls was an Olympic caliber athlete?

Do you think those other talents would have been allowed to be pursued or even discovered?

[Mama Mia]

Have any of the Bates children said that they want to do something that ISN'T ATI approved? We have seen considerable less of the Bates and don't really know if any of them actually wanted things that their parents didn't deny them opportunity to do. We know that they pretty much shut down the idea of Erin taking the scholarship for the secular college in favor of her going to one that is approved. The Duggar kids have admitted that they desire things outside the ATI approved hedge of protection, the Bates kids have only publically admitted that they want to do things that their parents already approve of.

.

I think we'll need to wait another 20 years to see if any of them go completely outside the bounds, and how their parents deal with it. And even then, we'll only see their public " Christmas Brag Letter" version of how accepting they are of choices they find unacceptable.

It's very possible the first handful of kids picked lives their parents would approve of anyway. Bt if ALL 19 of each family happily follow a pre- approved path -- that would seem incredibly suspicious, to me. I mean it's possible, anything is possible. But pretty unlikely.

I think of it like with my own kids -- the first few just happened to be easy-going, academic, relatively well-behaved people. They weren't robots, they had the occasional tantrum and squabbles and sneaky teen behavior. But overall they were just plain easy. Which made me think that my parenting style was super awesome. But my younger kids - completely different personality types. Creative, bright, funny kids -- but also incredibly temperamental, non-academic, stubborn etc. As adults they are all doing great, but they were very, very challenging to raise.

Personally, I think Gil being on the BOD, when he knows Gothard is a skeevy perv, is way more indicative of character than the more awkward Jim Bob being awkward. I think it's especially bad considering how highly they value purity and complete and total sexual abstinence for un married people. I haven't stayed on top of the whole Gothard thing , so forgive me if Indont know all the details --- but In a more secular situation, with people with more " worldly" background, a lot of Gothard's creepy footsie games might be brushed off as " hey, careful around the old guy, he's a freak". But to girls who are so completely sheltered - that kind of treatment must be completely devestating. It seems incredibly hypocritical that Gil knew about that behavior - and since there was previous scandal, there is no way he couldn't have -- and still actively supported Gothard.

I think the Duggar's for the most part just aren't as relaxed on camera. There's nothing wrong with that. I would be awful on camera uggghhh. For some reason the Bates have a high proportion of super charismatic, camera friendly personalities.

I also strongly agree with the previous poster who said that the main difference is that the emphasis of the Duggar's show is to hi light how different they are from everyone else and play up all the rules. While this time around the emphasis on the Bates family show is to hi light how they are just like everyone else.

I think anyone's family could look many completely different ways depending on editing and focus.

[memabelle]

I had a great experience seeing Flight of the Conchords, but that might be a bit different . . .

Part comedy show, part concert - Flight of the Conchords put on a great performance! One of my fave concerts!

[nelliebelle1197]

I realize it is only eight children, but not a single Maxwell has strayed. I think that is nuts. So you never know what a good dose of mind control can do.

I am sorry, but I am just laughing at the idea that the Bates are so open that they will let their kids do something not gothard approved. Gil is on the board. His kids are going to toe the line. It is huge being on that board in that community. I am beginning to think some folks aren't that informed about IBLP and are speaking from impressions as opposed to reality. It is not adorable that Zach is so brainwashed he ran to confess to mommy and daddy when he slipped up and kissed the woman he was marrying. It is terrifying. That is some Maxwell- level control there.

[divadivine]

If Lawson would put out a rap album, you'd bet your sweet ass I'd download it! That would be the shiz! Rappin' fer Jeeezus!

[eh02]

I think Gil and Kelly made it pretty clear that it's their way or the highway as long as the children live in their house. When they say their kids can make some choices on their own, I think they're pretty much exclusively a privilege for the adult children who are married, or engaged at the very least.

The single children have no say at all. Especially the minor children who aren't contributing financially. I think Alyssa was smart because she seemed to play by the rules respectfully while she was at home to avoid conflict, and then managed to escape. And look at her now - only, what, 1 year married? And she's already in pants and sleeveless tops. Kelly probably needs some new blood pressure meds.

The only way they could actually have freedom while single is to move out pre-marriage. Which is possible, but doubtful.

Gil and Kelly can't really do much when their kids decide that in their household, they feel personally convicted to wear sleeveless shirts or watch TV. :D There's no doubt she's pissed that it's not even been a year and Alyssa's in jeans and sleeveless tops. But I think Kelly is at least smart enough to know it's beyond her control now.

I don't think it's true that the Bates kids really have much more freedom than the Duggars. But I do think they seem more emotionally well cared for, and IMO it's clear in the way they interact with both their parents and siblings that their family is much warmer. The kids definitely interact with their mom in a way I've never seen the J'kids with Michelle.