Home schooling defense league opposing abuse reporting

[2xx1xy1JD]

This is part of Libby Anne's (love, joy, feminism) ongoing series on the HSLDA:

www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2 ... rters.html

One thing that stood out to me was the fact that they wrote:

Persons should be investigated only if there is evidence of actual abuse, not conditions or circumstances that might lead to abuse.

[hoipolloi]

The HSLDA is an organization of absolute fuckwads so it's not surprising they'd oppose mandatory reporting.

[BrownieMomma]

When people don't agree with homeschooling, esp in my state where homeschooling is a private school and not subject to state oversight in any way, they can't ring up the state education agency to complain or the local school district. They can, and it can cause problems for the family, but in the end the right to homeschool without answering to the state prevails.

So, the other alternative is to report the family to CPS and try to get the children removed. Yes, this is often only because the grandparents or someone does not want the kids to be homeschooled. They don't agree with the concept of homeschooling or the actual methods, so call up CPS and make up outlandish reports because if you don't make up a bunch of stuff, CPS will not investigate.

Of course there are some who abuse the right to direct the education the of their child in order to hide the actual abuse of their child. If only CPS were called into legitimate cases. When I was homeschooling I had some busy body threaten to call CPS. Double dog dared 'em, they backed right off. There was nothing to report to CPS, this person was just against homeschooling and threatened to call CPS on every homeschool family at my church.

[formergothardite]

HSLDA has one goal and it isn't to help children stay safe and get a good education, it is to lower the regulations surrounding homeschooling no matter the cost to children. They give absolutely no fucks about child safety or education.

[BrownieMomma]

You say "lower regulations." I say "protect the right of parents to direct the education of their children, especially without interference from the state."

tomato? tomatoh?

If the state wants children, the state can become human and start reproducing. This ain't France. The state should serve families, not people reproducing for the benefit of the state.

[ILoveJellybeans]

HSLDA are not about protecting children, they are about protecting parents and allowing them to abuse their kids. I don't know how they can live with themselves.

Persons should be investigated only if there is evidence of actual abuse, not conditions or circumstances that might lead to abuse.

[2xx1xy1JD]

When people don't agree with homeschooling, esp in my state where homeschooling is a private school and not subject to state oversight in any way, they can't ring up the state education agency to complain or the local school district. They can, and it can cause problems for the family, but in the end the right to homeschool without answering to the state prevails.

So, the other alternative is to report the family to CPS and try to get the children removed. Yes, this is often only because the grandparents or someone does not want the kids to be homeschooled. They don't agree with the concept of homeschooling or the actual methods, so call up CPS and make up outlandish reports because if you don't make up a bunch of stuff, CPS will not investigate.

Of course there are some who abuse the right to direct the education the of their child in order to hide the actual abuse of their child. If only CPS were called into legitimate cases. When I was homeschooling I had some busy body threaten to call CPS. Double dog dared 'em, they backed right off. There was nothing to report to CPS, this person was just against homeschooling and threatened to call CPS on every homeschool family at my church.

[Talitha Cumi]

You say "lower regulations." I say "protect the right of parents to direct the education of their children, especially without interference from the state."

tomato? tomatoh?

If the state wants children, the state can become human and start reproducing. This ain't France. The state should serve families, not people reproducing for the benefit of the state.

[DGayle]

How often do we see parents neglecting their children's education, whether due to too many children or sheer laziness? Around here, we can cite a bunch of cases. States that have low or no regulation of homeschooling allow this to happen. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect homeschoolers to hit the same benchmarks as public schools. If nothing else, literacy and numeracy should be at age-appropriate levels. "Protecting the right of parents to direct the education of their children" does not mean allowing educational neglect.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Want to know why a child not returning to school might be questioned, or why suspicious circumstances should be investigated? Read about Randal Dooley: http://www.canada.com/national/features ... y.html?id={77807A5E-651E-4A75-868A-C5CDDFD0DCCE}

Randal's teacher noticed bruises and she noticed how the boy seemed terrified of his step-mother. Unfortunately, police questioned Randal in the stepmom's presence, and he denied that he had been abused.

When Randal's father subsequently beat the shit out of him, they kept him out of school, knowing that the bruises would spark questions. Randal died.

[BrownieMomma]

How often do we see parents neglecting their children's education, whether due to too many children or sheer laziness? Around here, we can cite a bunch of cases. States that have low or no regulation of homeschooling allow this to happen. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect homeschoolers to hit the same benchmarks as public schools. If nothing else, literacy and numeracy should be at age-appropriate levels. "Protecting the right of parents to direct the education of their children" does not mean allowing educational neglect.

[BrownieMomma]

I agree with Talitha. We all have a vested interest in making sure kids get at least a basic education that is correct. All those abled-bodied and abled-minded kids get to be adults who aren't capable of working even a burger-flipping job will become the financial responsibility of the rest of us.

[formergothardite]

Do you ever read the stories of former homeschoolers who were abused and uneducated because of the lack of homeschooling laws BrownieMomma? And really, I wish people would stop bringing up problems with public schools(which is an entirely different subject) when discussing the problems with homeschooling. It would be like if I wanted to discuss a problem with a local private school and instead of addressing that problem people insisted on talking about the problems with the local charter school.

[docmom]

You say "lower regulations." I say "protect the right of parents to direct the education of their children, especially without interference from the state."

tomato? tomatoh?

If the state wants children, the state can become human and start reproducing. This ain't France. The state should serve families, not people reproducing for the benefit of the state.

[BrownieMomma]

Do you ever read the stories of former homeschoolers who were abused and uneducated because of the lack of homeschooling laws BrownieMomma? And really, I wish people would stop bringing up problems with public schools(which is an entirely different subject) when discussing the problems with homeschooling. It would be like if I wanted to discuss a problem with a local private school and instead of addressing that problem people insisted on talking about the problems with the local charter school.

[browncoatslytherin]

Why presume all homeschoolers are horrible people? Because that always seems to be the true meaning - homeschoolers are just abusers, just because they homeschool but that never accounts for the variety of homeschool populations these days.

i don't think anyone here is saying homeschooling in general is bad. homeschooling can be good and a very positive experience. but there needs to be regulations to make sure they aren't suffering educational neglect.

oh, and that "stuff they don't need to know" in order to get their diploma? guess what, most employers (the good ones, you know, the kind where you can get established and make a career or even just a good living) require a high school diploma. so maybe some skills themselves they won't use, but the diploma itself they will, and that's what is needed. i learned a lot of stuff in both high school and college that i have yet to use (and i still kid my math teacher about it :P ) but it's required, so unless there is a big overhaul in the system in general, it is the way it is and that's that.

Ofc some people abuse it. A lot of abusers send their kids to public school too. It's not a fail safe.

again, i don't think anyone is saying this. we only want to make sure there is no educational neglect and that there is a chance for kids to be exposed to required reporters so if there is concerning behaviour, it can be reported and dealt with appropriately.

The fact here is that in my state, the only way people outside the family can cause a serious problem for a homeschool family is to report them to CPS. Don't assume these reporters have pure intentions, quite often it is grandparents or other family members who are angry and out of sorts because the parents dare to make a choice they don't approve of. CPS is used by them as a weapon, and it's a waste of resources.

if no abuse is happening, do you know what cps does? they close the case at intake. if multiple calls happen on a particular family with no basis and nothing is ever found, they usually will respond slower and slower to each call (especially if the call ends up being from the same person). yes, it uses up resources. but you know what? people determined to make problems for a family who chooses homeschooling (or any kind of lifestyle they disagree with) is going to figure out some way to do it, and is going to call cps, police, the schools, doctors, whoever they can to complain and make the family's life harder. resources are going to be used up regardless. but if homeschool regulations are in place, i would think that would actually make it much easier for parents on the up and up to prove that no kind of abuse or neglect is going on.

[formergothardite]

There is absolutely no way to tell the level of abuse and neglect that goes on in homeschooling homes because of the lack of oversight. From my experience in some homeschooling circles the rate is extremely high and those children matter too. They need to be protected and the HSLDA does not give one shit about those children.

I have never said all homeschooling is bad or that all homeschoolers are abusive. I have never said that public school doesn't have problems too. I am just saying that people should be upset that there is so little oversight with homeschooling that no one actually has any idea about how homeschoolers do education wise or abuse wise. There are enough stories of abuse and educational neglect that people should be concerned.

[Tahani2]

Interesting discussion about homeschooling. I have a good friend in Atlanta who is an atheist- she is very smart, her kids are smart and she home schools. Within 3 months of starting school for her 5 yr old, she was reported to CPS by a family member for....home schooling.

I know many who are not fundies in the US who are home schooling because of the the Every child crap and funding mess. I know my friend in ATL want her kids to think critically and explore the why behind science, math, reading, spelling etc to reach conclusions and be able to defend those conclusions in a rational logical way. If I had the ability, I would home school both my children because while they are doing "good enough", they aren't reaching their full potential.

I do feel however, that state or county over site is warranted in some way. Not sure how to do that or how to prevent abuse from both sides of the issue

[2xx1xy1JD]

Everything has its problems, and its problematic people.

If you really stop and think about it, there is no reason at all for a small, individualized, private school to care about the large, anonymous school system is doing. The public school system sets standards because it has to have some measure of accountability, some way to measure its mission and work.

It's simply not the same when you have a handful of people to educate. It does not matter if you study bees at age 4 or 8 or 10. I know a few extraordinary homeschoolers whose goal was Ivy league but most are normal people who want their children to get the best education, alongside goals of the best childhood possible, best family life, etc. Most hs kids I know are educated "faster" than their ps counterparts. Not everything is necessarily at the same timing as a ps school system.

All these end -of-year tests, and tests you have to pass in order to graduate.. in the end these things do not matter. What matters is that the real world is having problems because too many high school graduates can't count change or read directions or other tasks to function at minimal levels in the adult working world.

It's fruitless and pointless to try to require homeschoolers to stay with public school measurements. But many people do not like things they do not understand, and like it or not, ps has been around long enough to have a sheeple mentality about it.

Why presume all homeschoolers are horrible people? Because that always seems to be the true meaning - homeschoolers are just abusers, just because they homeschool but that never accounts for the variety of homeschool populations these days.

Ofc some people abuse it. A lot of abusers send their kids to public school too. It's not a fail safe.

The fact here is that in my state, the only way people outside the family can cause a serious problem for a homeschool family is to report them to CPS. Don't assume these reporters have pure intentions, quite often it is grandparents or other family members who are angry and out of sorts because the parents dare to make a choice they don't approve of. CPS is used by them as a weapon, and it's a waste of resources.

Let me be crystal clear. I am not making any blanket statement that home schooling is abusive. I'm saying that this particular organization is going WAY beyond their stated mandate of advocating for homeschooling rights and putting ALL children at greater risk of abuse.

Unfortunately, false or frivolous CPS reports are made for many reasons. Ex-spouses do it quite often. So do nasty neighbors, esp. those who are living in apartments or other close quarters. So do extended family members. I haven't seen organizations for tenants or for divorced parents suggest that mandatory CPS reporting should cease to exist.

If someone is malicious, they will report with or without a mandatory reporting law.

What mandatory reporting laws will affect are the bystanders in a child's life who may realize that someone is wrong, but be reluctant to get involved.

[Palimpsest]

Oh, blimey. The homeschooling vs. public school debate again, this time used as deflection of criticism of HSLDA.

Of course, not all homeschooling is bad nor are most homeschoolers. Some homeschooling is really bad. Some homeschoolers use homeschooling to conceal abuse and neglect.

Here's a useful link for Browniemomma: http://www.responsiblehomeschooling.org.

This organization works to try to improve things so that good homeschoolers are protected and bad homeschoolers are weeded out so they don't give all homeschooling a bad name. It is well worth looking at if you homeschool and/or care about this sort of thing.

Back to topic: HSLDA *may* have started in the right place but I doubt it. IMO, it pretty much exists to engender paranoia in the homeschooling population and advise them badly on how they should react if CPS comes calling. Throw a fit, bar the doors, insist on a warrant served by law enforcement, do your best to escalate the situation so that CPS sees red flags -- and then do call HSLDA because we can help to escalate the situation even more. Honestly, HSLDA is like the Pissing Pastor taunting Border Control and escalating a situation in the hopes that he can get tasered or arrested. It is so useful when you want to scream persecution.

I'm not sure about extending mandatory reporting to the whole population. It is overkill, I think. Of course professionals should be (and are) mandated reporters, but that tends to make many people jittery and resistant to reporting. In all states anyone can report in good faith at any time without being mandated to do so, and I'd rather leave it as voluntary so I guess I agree with HSLDA there. :shock: It's also true that, in practice, very few mandated reporters are ever prosecuted for failure to report. It's almost impossible to prove what they knew and when they knew it, and the resources just aren't there for prosecuting all cases of failure to report anyway.

Slightly OT: Is anyone else following the debate around doctors asking about firearms when assessing risk? It is turning into a doozy.

[2xx1xy1JD]

This case illustrates the value of making everyone (adults, obviously) subject to mandatory reporting:

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/09/16/mo ... like-a-dog

Jeffrey Baldwin was living in a house full of people. Along with his abusive grandparents and his siblings, he also lived with his aunt and her boyfriend, James Mills. Jeffrey was abused and neglected so badly that he starved to death at the age of 5, weighing less than he did at the age of 1.

Mills told police that he saw that Jeffrey was treated like a dog, saw that he was skin and bones and so weak that he could barely walk. He told the grandmother to bring the child to the hospital, and heard her reply that she wanted to continue to get his check. He didn't report, because he didn't want to jeopardize his own free ride in that house. There were no charges against Mills or Jeffrey's aunt. They basically watched a child being slowly murdered and said nothing.

[BrownieMomma]

This case illustrates the value of making everyone (adults, obviously) subject to mandatory reporting:

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/09/16/mo ... like-a-dog

Jeffrey Baldwin was living in a house full of people. Along with his abusive grandparents and his siblings, he also lived with his aunt and her boyfriend, James Mills. Jeffrey was abused and neglected so badly that he starved to death at the age of 5, weighing less than he did at the age of 1.

Mills told police that he saw that Jeffrey was treated like a dog, saw that he was skin and bones and so weak that he could barely walk. He told the grandmother to bring the child to the hospital, and heard her reply that she wanted to continue to get his check. He didn't report, because he didn't want to jeopardize his own free ride in that house. There were no charges against Mills or Jeffrey's aunt. They basically watched a child being slowly murdered and said nothing.

I don't understand what kind of mandatory reporting you think people ought to have to do.

I don't really want to live in a society that essentially a police state, where you have to make some kind of appearance on some kind of regular basis and be judged. That would be wildly abused, people would always find ways around it. It also gives far too much power to those who sit in judgment.

I think every adult in that house ought to be charged.

I think welfare should have better controls but the counter-argument I always hear is that the cost of policing welfare is more than the benefit of policing welfare.

After my husband abandoned with me with our two infants and my older child, I ended up on WIC and food stamps. I had to go to the WIC office periodically and I had to bring the babies.

I think the reality here is that there will never be any kind of fail-safe preventive measures to protect all children at all times from abusive adults.

On topic, I personally know a homeschool family where the father and his first wife had an acrimonious divorce. He wanted custody of their newborn and he wanted the mother of the child's life forever.

He got the divorce and he was an absolute horror to the mother. He found a younger single woman to marry and in his mind, that was the "real" mother of his child.

He moved them all 2,000 miles away, joined a fundie church, forbade the wife to work even though she held a degree in elementary education, and allowed the wife to have one child. You understand, he's not a real fundie but he is a control freak and being in a fundie patriarchial church gave him the setting he needed to have the upper hand in all things.

So they homeschooled and "they" decided the oldest, a girl, was learning disabled and only needed a minimal education while the second child, a boy, is ofc the second coming of Christ and all efforts were put towards his education, his sports, his activities.

The sister was not allowed to have contact with her natural mother and the woman did not have funds to fight it out in court. There was absolutely no one who could take on these parents and see if that girl actually had a learning problem or not.

So here's the dilemma.... how could that girl best be served? I would have really liked to see her evaluated in the public school system with a more objector reporter and decision maker. Being "learning disabled" was a really good reason to keep the kid right under Daddy's thumb.

The further thought is do you then brand all homeschoolers with this example? Is this right, fair, accurate?

I do know the HSLDA helped homeschoolers in my state, especially when some overzealous attendance clerk or principal failed to understand their own legal limits. I don't think HSLDA is the be-all end-all either.

[hoipolloi]

HSLDA *may* have started in the right place but I doubt it. IMO, it pretty much exists to engender paranoia in the homeschooling population and advise them badly on how they should react if CPS comes calling, [hoipolloi adds:] and then make LOTS of money off all of it through charging for memberships and "legal" advice.

Oh, wait. It's NOT about the money but about the children? :orly:

My bad...

[Palimpsest]

This case illustrates the value of making everyone (adults, obviously) subject to mandatory reporting:

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/09/16/mo ... like-a-dog

Jeffrey Baldwin was living in a house full of people. Along with his abusive grandparents and his siblings, he also lived with his aunt and her boyfriend, James Mills. Jeffrey was abused and neglected so badly that he starved to death at the age of 5, weighing less than he did at the age of 1.

Mills told police that he saw that Jeffrey was treated like a dog, saw that he was skin and bones and so weak that he could barely walk. He told the grandmother to bring the child to the hospital, and heard her reply that she wanted to continue to get his check. He didn't report, because he didn't want to jeopardize his own free ride in that house. There were no charges against Mills or Jeffrey's aunt. They basically watched a child being slowly murdered and said nothing.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm expressing my thoughts too telegraphically. I can think of hundreds of cases where I sincerely wished people could be prosecuted for failure to report. Including that - is waste of human flesh too strong a term? - wastrel Mills in the Baldwin case.

My thoughts are more that legislation should be tightened so that people can be better prosecuted for collaboration with active and serious abuse -- abuse that reaches obviously criminal behaviour. A bystanders law, if you will.

CPS obviously works with law enforcement and vice versa, but CPS exists also to intervene, ameliorate, and prevent abuse that does not, in fact, reach criminal behavior. When it reaches that level, then CPS must involve law enforcement. I frankly don't give a shit whether people report abuse to CPS or the police. Sometimes reporting a crime to the police is more appropriate reaction when a crime in progress. Law enforcement then informs CPS.

I think a bystanders law is better than extending mandated reporting to all adults. Extending mandatory reporting laws is extremely difficult, meets with a lot of resistance, and does not necessarily increase reporting in general. It is much discussed in Abuse Prevention circles, I assure you, and not everyone agrees with me. I think better community training and increased awareness is usually the faster and more productive way to go. As would improving social services and CPS (yes, it needs improving) to gain more trust in eyes of the general public.

I've spent a lot of time training professionals who are mandated reporters and some are very resistant and convinced that they can do better than CPS/APS. There are very tragic cases that involve failure to report by MH professionals and physicians, who you would think should know better. Again, they are rarely prosecuted because DAs think that judges dismiss them. That said, I think that the Archdiocese of Boston and Cardinal Law might have been prosecuted if clergy had been mandated to report, but even that is debatable. And that was a long history of collaboration with and the protecting of serial abusers in MA.

I did find one case of a successful prosecution of a mandated reporter for you -- on the second page when I googled: http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_21934461/ ... hild-abuse As the reporter says, successful prosecution is extremely rare and many (including me) in the abuse prevention world cheer when a case is won.

I think we agree that HSLDA preaching that CPS is there to snatch away children from all homeschooling parents, and that suspicions of abuse shouldn't be reported is dangerous misinformation.

[browncoatslytherin]

I think the reality here is that there will never be any kind of fail-safe preventive measures to protect all children at all times from abusive adults.

just because we can't cover every base every time doesn't mean there shouldn't be an effort. i mean, should we just do away with cps, since abuse will happen anyway? that seems to be the point of that statement, so whether you mean it that way or that, that is exactly the way it is coming off.

On topic, I personally know a homeschool family where the father and his first wife had an acrimonious divorce. He wanted custody of their newborn and he wanted the mother of the child's life forever.

He got the divorce and he was an absolute horror to the mother. He found a younger single woman to marry and in his mind, that was the "real" mother of his child.

He moved them all 2,000 miles away, joined a fundie church, forbade the wife to work even though she held a degree in elementary education, and allowed the wife to have one child. You understand, he's not a real fundie but he is a control freak and being in a fundie patriarchial church gave him the setting he needed to have the upper hand in all things.

So they homeschooled and "they" decided the oldest, a girl, was learning disabled and only needed a minimal education while the second child, a boy, is ofc the second coming of Christ and all efforts were put towards his education, his sports, his activities.

The sister was not allowed to have contact with her natural mother and the woman did not have funds to fight it out in court. There was absolutely no one who could take on these parents and see if that girl actually had a learning problem or not.

So here's the dilemma.... how could that girl best be served? I would have really liked to see her evaluated in the public school system with a more objector reporter and decision maker. Being "learning disabled" was a really good reason to keep the kid right under Daddy's thumb.

depending on what guidelines could be in place, periodic proof of testing could have proven either way if she was learning disabled or not. if it could be proven she wasn't learning disabled and her education was being neglected, then steps could be taken to catch her up and make sure her basic educational needs are met.

The further thought is do you then brand all homeschoolers with this example? Is this right, fair, accurate?

what? of course not. that's silly. a logically minded person isn't going to see a bad example of homeschooling and assume all homeschoolers are that way. i'm actually pro-homeschooling (with support). despite being fundie, i had a very good education through homeschool growing up, and i'd even like to repeat it with my own children, if i'm able to. and there are secular homeschoolers who do an abysmal job, so it's not just a "fundie" thing (think sparkles and her "un-schooling"). but in no way do bad examples mean that there are no good examples or benefits to it. it's just a different way to educate and it works out different for different people.