Chaviva's husband can't return to the US for months

[Mama Mia]

I'm not Jewish and I was surprised as well. I did grow up in an area with a large Jewish population (Ocean County, NJ) but we did discuss differnt Jewish stereotypes mainly in History but also in English when we read Othello. Maybe we covered it more extensively based on where I lived but I assumed people at least touched on it in school when they studied WWII.

I can understand the general mild surprise from people. It was the shocked sounding judgy surprise from a couple posters that I found strange.

I think where you live partly does have an impact on what is emphasized in school, and groups you are a part of, or a large part of your community are a part of, the information - or misinformation- is more likely to stick with you.

Obviously we covered WWII and the holocaust, probably there was some mention of various stereotypes - I just didn't have any about Jews that stuck in my head. The whole general overwhelming awfulness stuck. The incomprehensible idea that an entire group of people could somehow dehumanize and destroy another whole group of people stuck.

But in my area the individual stories we heard and books we read that stuck with me were about Japanese- Americans in internment camps. Because my teacher had been born in one. And because my boyfriends grandfather had been a young man in one and talked about it.

I'm not saying that there were no Jewish people in my area, or even that I didn't know any Jewish people.

But the stereotypes that you were more likely to hear in my part of California were about immigrants from Mexico, or Asians.

And the history was more likely to be about--

the Mexican-American war that lead to California being part of the U.S. , which was a great thing because everyone know the U.S.A is the best ever and progress! And manifest destiny! And Protestant Work Ethic!

-- or when the awful greedy gold miner Anglos stole California by force and lied in the treaty by stealing everyone's land by putting all documents in English despite it stating that everything would be in English AND Spanish. AND that they put women's rights back because prior to U.S rule women could own property in their own names even if married.

----which version depends on who you talk to :whistle:

[treemom]

I did clarify what I meant by shocked.

[Mama Mia]

I did clarify what I meant by shocked.

Oh, I know you did. My comment wasn't about what you said. I understand.

To me, I guess it would be similar to if someone said they didn't know what " wet back" meant, or why it was horribly offensive. I would be surprised that they didn't know the term,.

[OkToBeTakei]

Sorry - I didn't mean to exclude others. My first thought was really just to say "did you read what I posted?", but I thought it would be rude to ignore 2 others that were pretty much saying the same thing. I guess it ended up rude of me anyway, since I excluded you and others. Can I blame my laziness on the iPhone?

Anyhoo - as a peace offering, if anyone wants some quality Jewish religion snark, may I present a podcast of OMGWTFBIBLE? The Ten Commandments, like you've never heard them before.

http://jewcy.com/jewish-religion-and-be ... mmandments

More about the OMGWTFBIBLE project: http://jewcy.com/jewish-religion-and-be ... id-tuchman

In short: He takes a segment of the Hebrew Bible each week, does his own translation (which he does pretty well) and then proceeds to snark on it.

No sweat, I tend to get overly emotional when trying to navigate and understand issues I think important. Sometimes the finger-pointing and accusations as used here are important but sometimes they are just so much noise that distracts from the real issue. How the hell do you move forward? (not your own or other posts which were informative. )

For your viewing interest during my information search...this..

http://www.aish.com/jw/s/6-Surprising-F ... tland.html

3 made me smile!

4 is just awesome.

6 saddens me.

[Lissa1481]

I think the jokes you have within a family, especially one that is diverse are different than the way you communicate with those outside of the family.

we have some family jokes that would probably be pretty offensive outside the family. ... like my stepdaughter (who is half Souix) being "the worst Indian" because she is allergic to horses.

[feministxtian]

we have some family jokes that would probably be pretty offensive outside the family. ... like my stepdaughter (who is half Souix) being "the worst Indian" because she is allergic to horses.

OH gosh!!! Yeah, I think a lot of ethnically diverse families have their jokes that would be seriously offensive to outsiders. I once had someone get upset with me and my DIL when we were discussing my grandson's hair (hair is a HUGE thing in black families). I said something to the effect of "yeah, well he got good hair" and her response was that she was happy he didn't get her nappy hair. My DIL "sounds white" so if you didn't see her, you'd not think she was black...and it was a black person who got a little upset until she turned around and noticed my DIL's coloring.

I know we tend to forget to "behave" when we're out in public...mostly because we just don't realize that other folks might get offended.

[Idolatry]

Hey, you guys were so busy talking about Nazis that you missed that she now has a Go Fund Me!!!!!

(Go Fund Me) gofundme.com/teamgb

Because "The immigration system is so broken, and my heart is right there with it."

Now it is the Jerusalem Consulate's fault for not expediting his case. Those meanies "haven't even looked at our paperwork."

Here's what she wants the money for:

"Help to pay for daycare (it's a Jewish, kosher daycare, hence the expense), and, as I anticipate my husband not being home any time soon, perhaps plane tickets to Israel for Purim (our two-year wedding anniversary) or Passover (I can't fathom such a significant holiday without him)."

And her blog is now about dress codes. If my husband were separated from my family because of immigration rules, I'd be focused on dress codes rules too.

[mystikchick17]

Actually, her Tznius Project dates back to the time of her first marriage - she did a whole bunch of guest posts in the series (which was quite interesting), and then it died and fizzled. I wonder why she's bringing it back, but hey.

Also, there are not enough eyerolls for the GoFundMe (which was originally discussed I think somewhere in this thread?) revisions. She had a different description up at first, but she's changed it. Only her explanations as usual hold no water, because that's just plain not how the expediting system works. It solely means that the documents get mailed out faster. It doesn't guarantee that the rest of the process will go faster, too. But it's easier to fish for sympathy when you don't bother to present the whole situation or understand how it works. :roll:

[Idolatry]

"They haven't even looked at our paperwork, is the ultimate issue."

Professional writer, is for win!

And I'm pretty sure the who has or has not read the paperwork right now is not the ultimate issue, literally or figuratively.

[feministxtian]

135 bucks in 28 days...

A friend of mine did a gofundme after his home was broken into and raised 8 grand in 30 days.

Doesn't look like many folks really care about this one....

[LucySnowe]

Hey, you guys were so busy talking about Nazis that you missed that she now has a Go Fund Me!!!!!

(Go Fund Me) gofundme.com/teamgb

Actually, I mentioned the GoFundMe on page 6.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=23729&start=80#p859015

Update: He's not back yet. She's started a GoFundMe for daycare expenses and plane tickets - given that she mentioned not being able to see him for Passover otherwise, looks like he won't be back until late April at the earliest.

Yeah, that new update is interesting. "Ultimately, there could be an issue with the paperwork, meaning I'll have to re-file it." Given that she's been directly blaming USCIS all over the place, this phrasing implies she or her immigration lawyer (if she has one) screwed something up, rather than that USCIS is making mistakes.

My guess would be that the Tzunis Project a) is popular, and thus brings people to the blog, and b) gets other people to do much of the writing, so is much less time-intensive than, say, writing a thoughtful review. (I'm not snarking either of these things! If I were a blogger, I'd love things like this.)

[Mama Mia]

Yeah, that new update is interesting. "Ultimately, there could be an issue with the paperwork, meaning I'll have to re-file it." Given that she's been directly blaming USCIS all over the place, this phrasing implies she or her immigration lawyer (if she has one) screwed something up, rather than that USCIS is making mistakes.

.)

I didn't get that from her phrasing. It sounded to me like she was just giving the reasons it can take a long time. And if she's reading anywhere, or talking to anyone, including an immigration attorney -- they would tell her that screwing up even a small detail can sometimes mean having to go back to step one.

[countressrascal]

I didn't get that from her phrasing. It sounded to me like she was just giving the reasons it can take a long time. And if she's reading anywhere, or talking to anyone, including an immigration attorney -- they would tell her that screwing up even a small detail can sometimes mean having to go back to step one.

It could be that he did not do his finger prints prior to leaving and without them he is screwed. Moral of the story is don't leave the US during the process.

[browncoatslytherin]

Moral of the story is don't leave the US during the process.

and if you do leave, prepare to not be able to return for a long time and don't blame anyone else for it but yourself

[jaelh]

and if you do leave, prepare to not be able to return for a long time and don't blame anyone else for it but yourself

Unrelated, but kinda related:

As someone whose had to go through US perm immigration processes - and has been through the same in other western countries - the US system is just monstrous in comparison to others.

There are additional levels of application (i.e.: you "apply to apply" for a visa for your finance or spouse, for example) and the documentation requirements are more stringent than other places (e.g.: police report for a country lived in for 5 years, obtained just before departure, to which you have not returned is not acceptable. The certificate must be no more than 12 months old. So, for example, if you lived in.. I don't know, Azerbaijan 45 years go [heck, 10 years ago], good luck getting those documents sorted out without flying back into the country for a few weeks). The processes also takes much, much longer than other countries.

To give you a comparison: 12 months of waiting for the "application to apply" for a spousal visa to the US to be processed (after which you get to wait the however long for the green card to be processed) vs. *6 *#%^ weeks* for the entire processing of a spousal visa into Australia. We're talking at what would work out to be 18 + months difference in processing time, for countries with similarly restrictive immigration systems. Why? Why on earth? There is no reason for this.

I have an absurd amount of education, and figuring out what exactly was required of me from the various forms was tough. Again, the forms for Australia and the UK are written in plain English, are easy to navigate and complete. You might still need help if you didn't have a decent education and knowledge of process, but anyone who'd completed high school? You didn't immediately start to wonder if you shouldn't hire an immigration agent. There is just *no need* for the US system to be like that.

Now, there are some reasons that the US system has delays - there are more people applying for example. But there is no reason, at all, for the extraordinary delays *built into* the US processes. Why the heck doesn't the system build in exceptions for the parent of a young child? What's the actual benefit to anyone to have this couple separated for an extended period?

Sure, yes, it's the rules. But the rules are $&%^. One of the most entertaining things is getting together a group of people from around the world, who've had to deal with US immigration. It's particularly fun at academic conferences, where you get a good cross spectrum of nations.

So.. yes, I know this family knowingly broke the rules, but until you've had to deal with the absolute abomination that is US immigration - temper your criticism some. When she says, documents need to be resubmitted, that could be anyones fault. When there is an additional delay, yeah; they fall out of no where. And so on. the system is a monster.

and that's not a shot at the processing officers, who have a difficult job at the best of times, not least because they're often dealing with people who are angry and stressed because their lives have to be put on hold for 12-24 months. The system is just so (unnecessarily) difficult to navigate, and places ridiculous burdens on people who are eager to contribute to the US.

[Peas n carrots]

Unrelated, but kinda related:

As someone whose had to go through US perm immigration processes - and has been through the same in other western countries - the US system is just monstrous in comparison to others.

There are additional levels of application (i.e.: you "apply to apply" for a visa for your finance or spouse, for example) and the documentation requirements are more stringent than other places (e.g.: police report for a country lived in for 5 years, obtained just before departure, to which you have not returned is not acceptable. The certificate must be no more than 12 months old. So, for example, if you lived in.. I don't know, Azerbaijan 45 years go [heck, 10 years ago], good luck getting those documents sorted out without flying back into the country for a few weeks). The processes also takes much, much longer than other countries.

To give you a comparison: 12 months of waiting for the "application to apply" for a spousal visa to the US to be processed (after which you get to wait the however long for the green card to be processed) vs. *6 *#%^ weeks* for the entire processing of a spousal visa into Australia. We're talking at what would work out to be 18 + months difference in processing time, for countries with similarly restrictive immigration systems. Why? Why on earth? There is no reason for this.

I have an absurd amount of education, and figuring out what exactly was required of me from the various forms was tough. Again, the forms for Australia and the UK are written in plain English, are easy to navigate and complete. You might still need help if you didn't have a decent education and knowledge of process, but anyone who'd completed high school? You didn't immediately start to wonder if you shouldn't hire an immigration agent. There is just *no need* for the US system to be like that.

Now, there are some reasons that the US system has delays - there are more people applying for example. But there is no reason, at all, for the extraordinary delays *built into* the US processes. Why the heck doesn't the system build in exceptions for the parent of a young child? What's the actual benefit to anyone to have this couple separated for an extended period?

Sure, yes, it's the rules. But the rules are $&%^. One of the most entertaining things is getting together a group of people from around the world, who've had to deal with US immigration. It's particularly fun at academic conferences, where you get a good cross spectrum of nations.

So.. yes, I know this family knowingly broke the rules, but until you've had to deal with the absolute abomination that is US immigration - temper your criticism some. When she says, documents need to be resubmitted, that could be anyones fault. When there is an additional delay, yeah; they fall out of no where. And so on. the system is a monster.

and that's not a shot at the processing officers, who have a difficult job at the best of times, not least because they're often dealing with people who are angry and stressed because their lives have to be put on hold for 12-24 months. The system is just so (unnecessarily) difficult to navigate, and places ridiculous burdens on people who are eager to contribute to the US.

Actually, I do know the process very well as my husband immigrated when we were married. I'll be the first to admit the processes and procedures are clear as mud, but I still think it was a boneheaded move. Anytime you leave the country without having perm residency you are taking a big risk of not being able to get back in. They gambled and they lost - I'm not completely unsympathetic to the situation as there is a young child involved.

Chaviva has a history of making some questionable and sudden life decisions and rarely owns up to the consequences of her actions when things go pear shaped. This is just another incident in a long established pattern of behavior.

[jaelh]

Oh, I know she makes bad life choices. I'm not disputing that, and this is just one more thing.

But the why of this being stuffed up? There is no reason for the US to keep her husband out. The process is absurd, and being able to return to visit ill/ailing/dying relatives should be permitted. It's unnecessarily harsh.

Should they have done it? No. If you're ever faced by bureaucracy, just keep on slogging till you get there. Yes, a million times over. But is it fair? Heck no. That's was all the long rant above was about.

It's easy to say - bad decision, suck it lady - but honestly; no one, however idiot-headed, should have to go through this. And while I do agree she lacks self-awareness, I wouldn't wish going through US immigrant visa processing on my worst enemy. I can't see that "we broke an unjust rule and the consequences suck" and "US immigration is $&%^ us over and this is taking a ridiculous amount of time" are inappropriate laments in these circumstances.*

*the begging for money etc.. yeah; I've got nothing on that.

[Coconut Flan]

Volume and control. A lot of the delay is built in to keep the numbers down and to avoid having to hire thousands of more employees. There are quotas for most immigration categories. Sadly, there are a ton of people trying to get around US immigration regulations. I've assisted about forty people to get green cards and found I had to think about the process but it was no more complicated than applying for Medi-Cal. Of course, the argument could be made that should be simpler also.

Out of those forty or so people, at least half had to miss the death or funeral of a loved one so as not to hose their applications. No sympathy for Chaviva on this one. Most of the deaths were of a parent.

Currently I know three spouses of friends of my daughter who are all in some kind of green card hell - each one of their own making. I think eventually two will get sorted out. I'm not sure the third one ever will. He violated US law while he was here. Currently they live in UK and meet her parents in Canada for visits. He isn't allowed entry into the country for any reason.

[jaelh]

Sadly, there are a ton of people trying to get around US immigration regulations.

As there are to most western nations, relative to their population. This is not a unique US issue, yet other countries manage more humane systems.

I've assisted about forty people to get green cards and found I had to think about the process but it was no more complicated than applying for Medi-Cal.

With respect, most people don't do this 40 times. Most people do this once. Most applicants and spouses are also deeply invested in the process, in a way that no one assisting them will ever be. Both practice and emotional distance (and a non-complex residential/national history for the applicant) make things much, much easier. Might it not be possible that having done something dozens of times might have distorted your perception of how challenging the process is, for those people doing it just the once? (FWIW, If obtaining government medical cover in the US is that perplexing, heck.. there are some serious serious problems)

Out of those forty or so people, at least half had to miss the death or funeral of a loved one so as not to hose their applications. No sympathy for Chaviva on this one. Most of the deaths were of a parent.

In your sample pool, 50% of people missed the death of a dear person during their visa process. This is monstrous, no? Awful. Hideous. We're asking people to choose between (using your example) missing a parent's death and not spending years in limbo, separated from their 'newer' family. People are forced to make a Sophie's choice - visit the dying parent or be separated from their spouse/force the family to come with them. I honestly don't know what I'd choose, in that situation.

But - you have no sympathy for someone who chose to act in a feeling, human way? Is there more to it than you knowing people who did choose expediting the visa over seeing a parent die, and they did it, so everyone else can just suck it up?

I get it, she broke the rules, she's a fool, she has no self awareness. But is it not possible to extend the family some degree of compassion for a situation that while, yes, it's of their own making is more fundamentally tied to a needlessly harsh system? I realise C. is an ass of the highest order, but this OMGFOLLOWTHERULESYOURFAULTIFYOUDON'T doesn't acknowledge that the rules are, themselves, dreadful. When people are forced to choose between two crap options, why are we surprised when they chose a crap option?

Anyway. I'm done on this I think. I'm not interested in defending C, so much as suggesting we need to see why her husband acted the way he did in a context.

[Arete]

I've had a lot of people close to me go through the immigration process, so I am not unsympathetic of how hard and frustrating it can be. Having said that, I have zero sympathy for Chaviva's situation. None. There are rules, and she and her husband purposely chose to break them. They are not deer in the headlights here. It is after you watch and help enough people navigate the system that you lose the sympathy for people who know exactly what could happen if you break the rules on purpose.

Allowing people out for funerals would put an extra layer of verification on the process, which slows the system down for everybody. So while not allowing people out without the consequence of going to the back of the line is harsh, forcing another documentation layer on an already over complex system screws everyone by slowing the system down further.

I save my sympathy for those who follow all the rules and still get tripped up by the INS requirements. Purposely thumb your nose at them? No.

[Peas n carrots]

I 100% agree the USCIS is overly punitive and like any huge bureaucracy does not have the staff to deal with every individual situation. That is why there are rules, regulations and wait times that totally suck.

However, Chaviva herself stated:

So Mr. T is out of the country indefinitely, thanks to an immigration law that says it takes forever once you start green card processing to get your travel documents, and if you don't have your travel documents, you're stuck in this country. Parent dies? Sorry, unless the right USCIS agent tells you to go to a local office to get an emergency "advance parole" document, you're up a creek. Unless, of course, you go ahead and leave the country anyway, in which case you screw yourself to the point of not being able to re-enter the USA. So that's where we are. I've emailed state senators, I've emailed local representatives. I've talked to a handful of lawyers. Everyone says the same thing: Why did he leave? Did he know what he was doing when he left?

There it is - he left the country and they both knew there would likely be an issue with him getting back in. Every attorney and political representative has told them it was a dumb move.

As sympathetic as I am that a child should have to spend time away from his father and a wife away from her husband, Chaviva is not a special snowflake and Tuvia is not being treated any differently than anyone else who did not get their advanced parole document to leave the country.

I don't think anyone on FJ doesn't agree that the USCIS rules & regs totally suck, but many of us tend to think that Chaviva's decision was extremely poor.

[LucySnowe]

The process is absurd, and being able to return to visit ill/ailing/dying relatives should be permitted. It's unnecessarily harsh.

It *is* permitted, or perhaps it's more accurate to say that there is a way one can do it without needing to completely start over. I don't know the intricacies of US immigration law, and I'm not saying that Coconut Flan's experience is wrong (clearly this is not a slam-dunk way to go back for a funeral if half of her sample group didn't do so), but given that Chaviva never said "this method exists but we can't use it" I think it's likely that she could have used it, but didn't (in fact, I think I found something she said about filing that actual document).

I can't see that "we broke an unjust rule and the consequences suck" and "US immigration is $&%^ us over and this is taking a ridiculous amount of time" are inappropriate laments in these circumstances.

I completely agree with you on the second one. No complaints from me about anyone who expresses those opinions. But the first one is really "we broke an unjust rule [because we didn't go through the correct procedures, and we're going to blame USCIS for not telling us about those procedures even though they are clearly on the website] and the consequences suck," and I don't think that's on the same level at all.

When she says, documents need to be resubmitted, that could be anyones fault.

My point was that she is blaming this entire debacle on USCIS, so if this particular delay were also their fault, I assumed she would be pointing that out in a "they are continuing to screw up" sort of way. But you're right; as there is no actual information, this could be any of a number of things.

[browncoatslytherin]

I 100% agree the USCIS is overly punitive and like any huge bureaucracy does not have the staff to deal with every individual situation. That is why there are rules, regulations and wait times that totally suck.

agreed with this. as a teen, i knew an australian family that abided by all the rules and did everything they were supposed to, and they still almost ended up kicked out over some bureaucratic snafu that wasn't their fault.

but the fact remains that no matter how ridiculous the rules and regulations, they are in effect, and they need to be respected and taken into account or else consequences happen. i mean, we can all rail all day about how unfair and confusing the system is, and we can be totally right, and yet that will not change the fact that the system is in place in the way that it is and violation of the process has serious consequences. chaviva&co not only violated it, they KNEW they were violating it, and then she got her panties in a bunch when the expected outcome happened. unjust rule or not, the rule was broken, and that's the point. from her tone, she seems to expect that because the rule isn't fair that they would get a reprieve? ha ha, nah shawty, ya ain't that special.

[Idolatry]

On page 3 of this thread, she says the reason they couldn't get parole for him to leave legally is because the office was closed, not that she didn't know about it or it was omg unfair. They knew the process and chose to not follow it.

I guess they think government agencies should be open 24/7 for them and think they don't have to wait. And it's everyone else's fault of course, currently the Jerusalem consulate.

[Arete]

I didn't realize that there actually IS an early parole option and they chose to blow it off. Yeah, definitely no sympathy from me. It's a mess of there own making.