Chaviva's husband can't return to the US for months

[FaustianSlip]

It's worth noting that they wouldn't have been in this situation at all if they had done things properly initially by filing for an immigrant visa before coming to the States. Had Tuvia entered the U.S. on an immigrant visa instead of trying to game the visa waiver system (which is expressly not intended for people planning to adjust status or stay longer than ninety days, which is exactly why the process of adjusting status from a visa waiver entry is so difficult- to discourage people from trying to subvert the actual immigrant visa process), he would have received a stamp in his passport that acted as a green card, his real green card within a month or two and been free to come and go as he liked. They deliberately chose to do it this way, knowing that it wasn't following the correct procedure, and once he was here, they deliberately chose to have him get on a plane and leave, without talking to anyone at USCIS first (which Chaviva admitted on her blog) and knowing full well that he likely wouldn't be permitted to return. Now, you make whatever choice you think is best for you and your family, but you need to live with the consequences.

[nelliebelle1197]

Oh, I know she makes bad life choices. I'm not disputing that, and this is just one more thing.

But the why of this being stuffed up? There is no reason for the US to keep her husband out. The process is absurd, and being able to return to visit ill/ailing/dying relatives should be permitted. It's unnecessarily harsh.

Should they have done it? No. If you're ever faced by bureaucracy, just keep on slogging till you get there. Yes, a million times over. But is it fair? Heck no. That's was all the long rant above was about.

It's easy to say - bad decision, suck it lady - but honestly; no one, however idiot-headed, should have to go through this. And while I do agree she lacks self-awareness, I wouldn't wish going through US immigrant visa processing on my worst enemy. I can't see that "we broke an unjust rule and the consequences suck" and "US immigration is $&%^ us over and this is taking a ridiculous amount of time" are inappropriate laments in these circumstances.*

*the begging for money etc.. yeah; I've got nothing on that.

My husband immigrated here. We did it the right way and it was easy. Spousal immigration is not really hard over here if you follow the rules.

[jaelh]

My husband immigrated here. We did it the right way and it was easy. Spousal immigration is not really hard over here if you follow the rules.

Why does your experience trump mine? and the experience of tens of thousands of other people?

If you have a spouse from a wealthy country (with whom the US has a love affair); whose never lived outside their country of origin - dog forbid you've lived in a 'dubious' country; never had health issues; and don't have to have to deal with documents in more than one language I could imagine it's probably not too difficult.

Most people in the world aren't that person.

Faustian - I do realise they messed themselves over. I suppose my point is more that the system is harsh; rules or not. Though fwiw; I'm genuinely curious -

. Had Tuvia entered the U.S. on an immigrant visa .... his real green card within a month or two and been free to come and go as he liked.

How long would it have taken to get the immigrant visa, would you estimate?

[Peas n carrots]

. Had Tuvia entered the U.S. on an immigrant visa .... his real green card within a month or two and been free to come and go as he liked.

How long would it have taken to get the immigrant visa, would you estimate?

[Idolatry]

Why does your experience trump mine? and the experience of tens of thousands of other people?

If you have a spouse from a wealthy country (with whom the US has a love affair); whose never lived outside their country of origin - dog forbid you've lived in a 'dubious' country; never had health issues; and don't have to have to deal with documents in more than one language I could imagine it's probably not too difficult.

Uh, he immigrated on a UK passport, right, and the UK is pretty much all of those things.

They knew the process to leave for a funeral, but refused to follow it because the office was closed.

I feel for families impacted by harsh and unfair immigration laws, especially gay and lesbian families, but that's not the case here. This isn't anyone being exploited or treated unfairly. They knew the rules and chose to do this instead. That choice that had an obvious consequence.

[jaelh]

He is an Orthodox Jew, no? With strict time parameters on burials times, right?

The 'ideal' timeframe is 24 hours for an Orthodox burial. "The office was shut" is, in such an instance, not such a poor excuse.

And of course, the choice had an obvious possible consequence. It doesn't mean the consequence is reasonable or proportionate. I'm not all for the family - they made a series of less-that-ideal decisions. But it's quite possible to recognise the foolishness of the decision and the disproportionality of the consequence as mutually exclusive concepts.

Also, and dog I wish more people understood this - having an UK Passport does not mean "all those things". It means you have a UK passport. The language of your documents; your residential history; your health history etc.. are not determined by your passport, they are determined by where you live, the language that was spoken in countries you resided in and your health. I have no idea about this mans individual circumstances. But the idea that if you have a UK (or Australian or French etc...) passport then easy is simply not correct. Likely easier, sure. But easy? No guarantee of it at all. A passport is only one factor.

[nelliebelle1197]

Why does your experience trump mine? and the experience of tens of thousands of other people?

If you have a spouse from a wealthy country (with whom the US has a love affair); whose never lived outside their country of origin - dog forbid you've lived in a 'dubious' country; never had health issues; and don't have to have to deal with documents in more than one language I could imagine it's probably not too difficult.

Most people in the world aren't that person.

Faustian - I do realise they messed themselves over. I suppose my point is more that the system is harsh; rules or not. Though fwiw; I'm genuinely curious -

How long would it have taken to get the immigrant visa, would you estimate?

And why does yours trump mine? Or that of tens of thousands of other people who follow the rules and don't think they are such special snowflakes that can flaunt rules they deem silly?

My situation is more relevant to Chaviva than what you have described. My husband and I met while we were both living in England. He is a citizen of Ireland and NZ. He has no special qualifications or education outside the trades that would qualify him for any special consideration. He came over here on a visitor visa before we decided to marry. We got married in July and he had a work permit by September and a green card a year later. Because we did what we were supposed to do.

You know, the United States, or any other country for that matter, is not obliged to accept anyone. No one has an automatic right to immigrate where ever they choose; your posts read as very angry over something that you really don't have a reason about which to be so angry. You decide to live somewhere, you suck it up and follow the rules. That's part of earning the right to live in another country. I could not get a work visa now in the UK as I had before because I am no longer a student. I don't qualify to immigrate there unless I got Irish citizenship through my husband or was employer sponsored. My husband, if he did not have his Irish passport, would only be allowed in the UK for two years, even though he is technically a citizen of a British colony.

I doubt there is anywhere in the world that has as many people trying to immigrate as the US. The rules have to be strict and complicated. We already have millions of undocumented people here who contribute the economy and society, and in my opinion, they trump just about anyone else. But it is a massively complicated issue, not just politically but socially and frankly economically. It cannot be solved easily.

[nelliebelle1197]

He is an Orthodox Jew, no? With strict time parameters on burials times, right?

The 'ideal' timeframe is 24 hours for an Orthodox burial. "The office was shut" is, in such an instance, not such a poor excuse.

And of course, the choice had an obvious possible consequence. It doesn't mean the consequence is reasonable or proportionate. I'm not all for the family - they made a series of less-that-ideal decisions. But it's quite possible to recognise the foolishness of the decision and the disproportionality of the consequence as mutually exclusive concepts.

Also, and dog I wish more people understood this - having an UK Passport does not mean "all those things". It means you have a UK passport. The language of your documents; your residential history; your health history etc.. are not determined by your passport, they are determined by where you live, the language that was spoken in countries you resided in and your health. I have no idea about this mans individual circumstances. But the idea that if you have a UK (or Australian or French etc...) passport then easy is simply not correct. Likely easier, sure. But easy? No guarantee of it at all. A passport is only one factor.

Except it is a poor excuse because the system is too vast and the exceptions too many to accommodate every single situation for every individual. That is why there are rules. The other glaring issue that no one has brought up is whether or not the grandmother died suddenly or did they know she was ill? If she was ill and he knew there was a chance he would need to leave, why did he not prepare his documents ahead of time and start working with immigration earlier? Even a few days likely would have gotten him the approval he needed.

\

[jaelh]

My situation is more relevant to Chaviva than what you have described.

How do you know that the application you are describing is more similar to this situation, than what I'm posing?

Here's the thing. You Don't. Nor do I. But this "it's easy, because it was easy for us". No. You don't know what. Chaviva shares WAY TOO MUCH (waaaaaaayyyyy) but I see nothing going either way to indicate that the process is "easy" or "not". It might be as you're describing. It might, just as easily, be not. That's all.

Except it is a poor excuse because the system is too vast and the exceptions too many to accommodate every single situation for every individual. That is why there are rules. The other glaring issue that no one has brought up is whether or not the grandmother died suddenly or did they know she was ill? If she was ill and he knew there was a chance he would need to leave, why did he not prepare his documents ahead of time and start working with immigration earlier? Even a few days likely would have gotten him the approval he needed.

Even a few days would be after the funeral. Again, this is a religious family with particular practices that don't permit much deviation. And I didn't provide you with a poor excuse; rather I provided you with a possible explanation. (has anyone actually tried to explain her behaviour, other than declaring she's an self-absorbed idiot?)

And seriously - the system is not "so vast" when it is compared to other nations. On a per capita basis, the US is a middle of the pack migrant destination. Yes, it takes more migrants overall, but that's not really a a useful explanation of what is being measured. If other nations, with their much higher number of applicants per capita, can manage to be *so much more* flexible and accommodating, that the system is too big!! isn't much of an argument for anything. The system is has more people, but it also has a much greater capacity than everywhere else.

Finally, and this is on the "living in a country is a privilege" so get in line.

Look, most people will never pack up their families and move. Very few people, all told, do. It's extraordinarily difficult. The vast majority of migrants make enormous contributions to their new homes - they are often better educated, wealthier and healthier than the local population. it's not just a privilege for the migrant. Any country that receives migrants are receiving new tax payers and people who are going to contribute and participate to their new homes. It's a damn huge advantage for the receiving country as well. Given it's a two way advantage, it is really that unreasonable to hope a migration system would be designed in a way that treats applicants with sensitivity and respect?

I really am done this time. Once again: I don't dispute that Chiviva is an idiot - it's very much like watching a car crash. But, dear dog, few people are entirely stupid/evil/lazy. I don't dispute that this is her and her husbands fault. Yes, she made her bed, now she lies in it. Rather, my point is that the bed is unnecessarily and unduly restrictive and inflexible. And that we don't have a full set of facts in front of us, and tiny, tiny differences in facts can entirely change how difficult something can be.

Anyway. back to your regularly scheduled jingering.

[nelliebelle1197]

Where'd you get your facts on the US being in the middle of the pack? The United Nations ranks the U.S. as the top destination for immigrants with 45 million living in the US at any given time. Russia is second with ... Just under 11 million. There are six million new applications to the U.S. every single year on top of millions in some stage of process, renewal, denial, reapplication, plus dozens of different visas for millions entering for different reasons. That does seem like a vast number of people coming in compared to anyone else in the world.

I am definitely not an America: love it or leave it kind of person. I think who ever seriously says something like that should actually be deported :lol: . But the fact is that it is a giant bureaucracy and you have to play along to win the game. You can't have everything your way all the time and unfair things happen when you have to build rules into a system as large as the one here.

Australia also has travel restrictions on most of its visas for immigrants, by the way. And the UN report also shows that the UK and France are tightening immigration policies to keep people out.

[LucySnowe]

And the UN report also shows that the UK and France are tightening immigration policies to keep people out.

For the UK, at least, this is absolutely true. (I don't know what France is up to though it wouldn't surprise me.) Immigration is a hot issue here and as the UK can't put any serious restrictions on migration from within the EU, they have to hammer the non-EU migrants. This crosses party lines; it's not just "Tories are evil."

I think much of this thread can be summed up as follows:

a) immigration laws put people under great emotional pressure and are often draconian, arbitrary, and just plain awful

b) you have to follow them if you want to immigrate

c) people are sympathetic towards Chaviva and her husband for having to deal with immigration rules, but not for breaking those rules and then complaining about the penalties

[FaustianSlip]

Faustian - I do realise they messed themselves over. I suppose my point is more that the system is harsh; rules or not. Though fwiw; I'm genuinely curious -

How long would it have taken to get the immigrant visa, would you estimate?

I would hesitate to say, because it would depend on processing times at the National Visa Center and/or the Embassy or Consulate where they would do the immigrant visa interview. I think the going rate is in the six-month range, if they have all of their paperwork in order, and the holdups tend to come from the National Visa Center, not the posts doing the immigrant visa interviews. Once you have the interview and get approved for the visa, you can theoretically have the visa printed and in hand within a couple of days (I think it's usually more like a week, since they're delivered by mail, but still). But keep in mind that we're talking about a guy who has a British passport and can use the visa waiver system. They could have filed all of his paperwork, and he could have come and visited for up to three months at a time to stay in the US, be with his wife and kid, et cetera. I know people who've done that without issue, so long as they didn't overstay.

That being said, USCIS has a number of field offices attached to Embassies and Consulates overseas. I believe those field offices will take applications filed locally, which can cut the wait time down to as little as three months. You know who's got one of these field offices? London. If they'd stopped over there en route back to the States from Israel, they might have been able to file the paperwork right there. Of course, rules are for all of those other people, so they decided to roll the dice and take their chances abusing the visa waiver program instead. They knew full well that it was a gamble, and here we are. I hope for their sake that Tuvia was, in fact, in status the whole time he was in the States, or he could be in for a bunch of other problems.

Personally, I think the wisest course of action for anyone (well, any American) marrying someone of another nationality is to petition for an immigrant visa for them pretty much immediately. There's no law saying that you have to rush off to your interview and move to the U.S. as soon as your petition is ready- you can get it all filed and then just wait until you're ready to go. This can avoid situations where you have to move suddenly and discover that your SO is stuck without a visa.

I'm not trying to say that the U.S. immigration system is fabulous or efficient, just to be clear- it's screwed up and needs a lot of improvement (although careful what you wish for, because with the congress we currently have, "improvement" could very well amount to locking the door and putting up a "No Vacancies" sign). But you know, getting my driver's license in Japan was a complete nightmare- I didn't just start driving without a license because, well, I needed transportation and didn't feel like waiting. The argument that a set of rules and regulations are convoluted and frustrating can be entirely valid, but that doesn't mean that you can expect to just disregard them and do whatever the hell you want with impunity. And I'll bet dollars to donuts that Chaviva didn't give a single, solitary fuck about the vagaries of our immigration system or the horrible situations in which families find themselves when trying to navigate that system until her family got itself in this predicament.

[FaustianSlip]

I also find it vaguely ironic that while Chaviva was willing to turn her life upside-down and follow all kinds of rules and deal with all kinds of complicated minutiae (including, as I recall, refraining from dating and/or having a significant other) in order to obtain an Orthodox conversion to Judaism, she doesn't think that either she or her husband should be inconvenienced by the rules and regulations of the U.S. government in order for him to obtain a proper immigrant visa (and, potentially, U.S. citizenship).

[Boogalou]

Where'd you get your facts on the US being in the middle of the pack? The United Nations ranks the U.S. as the top destination for immigrants with 45 million living in the US at any given time. Russia is second with ... Just under 11 million. There are six million new applications to the U.S. every single year on top of millions in some stage of process, renewal, denial, reapplication, plus dozens of different visas for millions entering for different reasons. That does seem like a vast number of people coming in compared to anyone else in the world.

I am definitely not an America: love it or leave it kind of person. I think who ever seriously says something like that should actually be deported :lol: . But the fact is that it is a giant bureaucracy and you have to play along to win the game. You can't have everything your way all the time and unfair things happen when you have to build rules into a system as large as the one here.

Australia also has travel restrictions on most of its visas for immigrants, by the way. And the UN report also shows that the UK and France are tightening immigration policies to keep people out.

I don't want to speak for Jaelh but (I think) she didn't mean the United States is at the middle of the pack in terms of absolute numbers. She meant they are at the middle of the pack in terms of percentage of immigrants in the total population. For example, the US has 45+ million immigrants that makes up 14.3% of the population while Canada has 7+ million immigrants who make up 20% of our population. So, the US has more immigrants total but Canada has more immigrants as a percentage of our population.

If you go to the Wikipedia article you can sort their list by "immigrants as a percentage of national population" and see what Jaelh was talking about. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_immigrant_population

[Idolatry]

Also, and dog I wish more people understood this - having an UK Passport does not mean "all those things". It means you have a UK passport. The language of your documents; your residential history; your health history etc.. are not determined by your passport, they are determined by where you live, the language that was spoken in countries you resided in and your health. I have no idea about this mans individual circumstances. But the idea that if you have a UK (or Australian or French etc...) passport then easy is simply not correct. Likely easier, sure. But easy? No guarantee of it at all. A passport is only one factor.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. If he can't speak English or is blind or something, then he shouldn't have to follow the same rules as everyone else?

They speak English, knew all about the rules, and chose to break them, so now they can face the consequences. I don't have much pity for people who intentionally disregard rules and then whine about it being unfair.

[Peas n carrots]

I also find it vaguely ironic that while Chaviva was willing to turn her life upside-down and follow all kinds of rules and deal with all kinds of complicated minutiae (including, as I recall, refraining from dating and/or having a significant other) in order to obtain an Orthodox conversion to Judaism, she doesn't think that either she or her husband should be inconvenienced by the rules and regulations of the U.S. government in order for him to obtain a proper immigrant visa (and, potentially, U.S. citizenship).

THIS. I just find her to be such a head scratching person...she intentionally makes her life more difficult. And I don't mean by converting...converting to the most legalistic branch, making multiple moves, etc. which was fine and dandy when she was single but now that she has a kid I worry for the kind of childhood he will have to. I can't imagine it is going to be very stable.

[LucySnowe]

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. If he can't speak English or is blind or something, then he shouldn't have to follow the same rules as everyone else?

I think what jaelh means is that having a UK passport in and of itself doesn't make immigration an easy matter, though some people assume it does.

Factors that make immigration easier or harder include the language of your documents (because if they're in English, that's great; if not, you have to spend time and money to get them translated), residential history (something mentioned earlier about needing documents from places where you'd previously lived which, in many cases, is difficult if not impossible), and health (people can be denied entry based on health issues - a Canadian woman in 2013 was denied entry because of mental health reasons - while having a disability can often make tasks tougher to complete).

Everyone follows the same rules, but certain circumstances make applications more difficult to complete.

[Mama Mia]

And why does yours trump mine? Or that of tens of thousands of other people who follow the rules and don't think they are such special snowflakes that can flaunt rules they deem silly?

My situation is more relevant to Chaviva than what you have described. My husband and I met while we were both living in England. He is a citizen of Ireland and NZ. He has no special qualifications or education outside the trades that would qualify him for any special consideration. He came over here on a visitor visa before we decided to marry. We got married in July and he had a work permit by September and a green card a year later. Because we did what we were supposed to do.

You know, the United States, or any other country for that matter, is not obliged to accept anyone. No one has an automatic right to immigrate where ever they choose; your posts read as very angry over something that you really don't have a reason about which to be so angry. You decide to live somewhere, you suck it up and follow the rules. That's part of earning the right to live in another country. I could not get a work visa now in the UK as I had before because I am no longer a student. I don't qualify to immigrate there unless I got Irish citizenship through my husband or was employer sponsored. My husband, if he did not have his Irish passport, would only be allowed in the UK for two years, even though he is technically a citizen of a British colony.

I doubt there is anywhere in the world that has as many people trying to immigrate as the US. The rules have to be strict and complicated. We already have millions of undocumented people here who contribute the economy and society, and in my opinion, they trump just about anyone else. But it is a massively complicated issue, not just politically but socially and frankly economically. It cannot be solved easily.

I understand what you are saying, and think you have some good points.

But I have to say that I know many U.S. Citizens who married people from Mexico or other Latin American countries , who did it all legally, and have never, ever heard of any of them having anywhere near that simple a process with so short a timeline. No where near it.

Maybe I just happen to know people who were particularly unlucky ...... But I think the originating country and how " desirable" people from that country are probably has a lot to do with it. Not necessarily relevant in Chaviva's case -but still.

[FaustianSlip]

I can understand the draw to Orthodoxy, in a way- there's a huge amount of pressure on converts from certain quarters of the Jewish community (and not always Orthodox corners, either) to convert under Orthodox auspices because "everyone will accept you then." Which isn't actually true, but when you're converting (or have converted) and worrying about your own Jewish identity and your future kids' Jewish identities and so on... it can be a really seductive thought, this idea that if you just do it this one way, well, you'll be unimpeachably Jewish then, won't you? I had totally secular Jewish friends who were floating the "fake it 'til you make it" idea of conversion to me, but I told them flat out that I wouldn't start my life as a Jew with a lie, for one, and for another, I wasn't going to pretend that I bought into the Orthodox worldview when, in a number of significant ways, I don't. Obviously, Chaviva came to a different conclusion, which is entirely her prerogative. But I do think she talked herself into believing that if she was Orthodox, all of her problems would somehow be solved.

Which brings me to my other beef, which is that I think a lot of the insurmountable, unavoidable issues Chaviva reports, which she ascribes to conflicts between her religious observance and the secular world, or in which she justifies her decisions and behavior with appeals to Jewish law, aren't as tied to Orthodoxy and Orthodox observance as they seem. Some are, but a lot aren't. I think she uses halacha as a crutch to keep from having to address any of her own culpability in anything that goes wrong for her, and it really irritates me.

[Soulhuntress]

Is the immigration process a pain in the ass? Absolutely. But is it KNOWN to be a pain in the ass to potential immigrants? Is said potential immigrant from a close knit culture who communicates said issues with each other? And lastly why would these two egocentric morons think they were exempt from legal requirements for citizenship? Oy.

[LucySnowe]

Is the immigration process a pain in the ass? Absolutely. But is it KNOWN to be a pain in the ass to potential immigrants?

That's an interesting point. Chaviva moved to Israel and intended to stay there; the move back to the states was whiplash-inducing in its speed, so it wasn't as though she'd researched it for months beforehand and knew the various pitfalls. And for the most part, no one knows how difficult it is to emigrate to their own country, because why would they? You only know it if you work in that field or have personal experience of it. A lot of educated, intelligent people have really weird ideas about immigration, because it's all from things they once read in a newspaper or they saw Green Card or some guy in their office never had any problems.

So it's entirely possible she had no idea just how daunting the process was until she had to face the paperwork.

[Mama Mia]

I think the draw to a the more ritualistic, strict, branches of any religion is pretty common among people who convert, or embrace religion for the first time. Not universal, of course, but pretty common. More so if their religious background was basically non-existent or didn't have much ritual or associated with it. Or if they are converting because of a personal crises.

I know quite a few people who grew up basically non-religious , were petty thugs and drug addicts as young adults, and who became full-on, hard core born again evangelical Christians. At least for awhile. And I think a lot of the draw was the structure and rules. Because they felt out of control in their lives. Most of them mellowed quite a bit over time.

Personally, I went to a very, very, very liberal Christian church growing up. All the messages were great. I was shocked when I learned about the scary and hateful God and Jesus many churches portrayed. But I also know lots of Catholics and really, really liked the ritual of Catholic Mass and the Saints and the rosary and lighting candles and all of that. I also loved reading about Orthodox Jewish rituals. The Shabbos Dinner, the mikvah bath, the clothing rules, all of that greatly appeals to me.

So I can understand why she would want to convert to Orthodoxy - if the draw was the basic beliefs, but also all the daily structure and ritual.

Just my opinion. YMMV

[knit1purl1]

I grew up in a secular Jewish home - to the extent that we appeared Christian in some respects. My father was a church musician for a living, I sang in the church choirs, etc.

In my mid twenties, I returned to the faith and for quite a few years, I was very drawn to Orthodoxy. There was a certain amount of comfort and reassurance in (ideally) knowing exactly where the lines were. Then I started reading Jewish Feminist literature and realized that if I ever had daughters (had a son at the time), there was no way I was going to raise girls in an Orthodox community. Nope, nope, and no way. NO WAY were my daughters, two of them now, going to be raised in an environment that puts males ahead of females every step of the way.

We attend a lovely Reform Temple now. It fits us all. I feel secure in my understanding and practice of Judaism now. I don't need a rabbi to tell me which way to move.

Fundamentalism appeals when a person feels lost.

[samurai_sarah]

That's an interesting point. Chaviva moved to Israel and intended to stay there; the move back to the states was whiplash-inducing in its speed, so it wasn't as though she'd researched it for months beforehand and knew the various pitfalls. And for the most part, no one knows how difficult it is to emigrate to their own country, because why would they? You only know it if you work in that field or have personal experience of it. A lot of educated, intelligent people have really weird ideas about immigration, because it's all from things they once read in a newspaper or they saw Green Card or some guy in their office never had any problems.

So it's entirely possible she had no idea just how daunting the process was until she had to face the paperwork.

Entirely possible, but why should she get a pass?

[Arete]

I grew up in a secular Jewish home - to the extent that we appeared Christian in some respects. My father was a church musician for a living, I sang in the church choirs, etc.

In my mid twenties, I returned to the faith and for quite a few years, I was very drawn to Orthodoxy. There was a certain amount of comfort and reassurance in (ideally) knowing exactly where the lines were. Then I started reading Jewish Feminist literature and realized that if I ever had daughters (had a son at the time), there was no way I was going to raise girls in an Orthodox community. Nope, nope, and no way. NO WAY were my daughters, two of them now, going to be raised in an environment that puts males ahead of females every step of the way.

We attend a lovely Reform Temple now. It fits us all. I feel secure in my understanding and practice of Judaism now. I don't need a rabbi to tell me which way to move.

Fundamentalism appeals when a person feels lost.

It also appeals to another subset: People who do not want to make decisions for themselves. They really do exist. They are far more comfortable in worlds where every moral/ethical/routine decision has already been made for them. I don't think that is the case with Chaviva, I think she is in a very legalistic religious community for the seeming order it gives her life. Other people really don't want the responsibility of thinking for themselves.