Chaviva's husband can't return to the US for months

[2xx1xy1JD]

Oh please. It's pretty harsh to call someone a "bigot" for posting something that offended your widdle feelings. On the front page, there is worse, even more offensive stuff about Mormons, Baptists, Catholics, ATI, and whatever Adeye and the Maxwells are. And that's just right this second.

This whole forum is full of multiple threads that offend many people's religious beliefs, though apparently this religion is so awesome it is off limits. It's the only one that has pages and pages of whining and name calling because someone said something offensive.

Let me know when you've actually read my posts (and Treemon's and FS).

[Idolatry]

Let me know when you've actually read my posts (and Treemon's and FS).

Let me know when start defending those sad, unfair stereotypes about the Mormons.

[treemom]

Where are those posted and I will jump in! I don't read and can't read every thread anymore. (Although ten years ago I could actually read every thread every day on FJ).

[treemom]

I think it depends on your goal. I think it's ok to just not want to be around racist asshats and don't feel like it is your job to guide them to a more nuanced understanding. If racists asshat is a good friend of mine and is just demonstrating bigotry in this moment, sure. If not, fuck it. I don't want to be the bigot whisperer and in my experience with some, like my parents, it's not going to happen. I applaud people who do, but I also think they "fuck it" approach is acceptable.

I do think that the initial reaction was much more gentle on this thread which trying to educate and then when there was the double down on the stereotype people weren't so gentle.

[OkToBeTakei]

This topic is so muddy - in general; that's not a criticism, and it's not leveled at anyone in this particular discussion or on this forum. The topic itself is hard to wrap my hands around. (Every time I speak on this subject, I think what I say is in the end totally inadequate to the task of addressing it. It doesn't matter what words I use, or what facts I source, it never seems to be quite right, or quite enough - but here's doing it anyway.)

People are ultimately responsible for their own actions. But, as you recognize, people don't appear in a vacuum; they come from somewhere, and that "somewhere" plays a significant role in what they believe.

I'm pretty sure most people believe, until they're given sharp reason to think otherwise, that the individuals and institutions they trust for their information are providing material that is at least mostly accurate - that their parents and instructors and even the local media outlets (which feature people much like themselves, and from the same general background) are trustworthy - a trait that includes rationality.

Statements such as that "I can trust the news" or that "I can trust government press releases" do, I think, reflect a kind of privilege. It might be a really common sort - so common it might not even seem as "privilege" at all - but that's still what it is.

And admitting that the prejudices they encounter in their own community - prejudices they themselves may have accepted - are actually irrational isn't easy.

Removing those prejudices is even harder, especially if the person who holds them has invested in them somehow.

I think I understand what you're saying, but the responsibility for overcoming prejudice always ends up with the biased person. It can't rest anywhere else in the end, since the recognition of bias (and its correction) are ultimately personal matters.

Ending prejudice is a legitimate target of community activism, but the people who make up those communities have to decide individually not to perpetuate those ideas anymore; not to accept them at all. They have to recognize, among other things, that it doesn't really matter how a slur originated. Whatever the thing started as, it's now a verbal weapon people use against each other - sometimes ahead of using other kinds of weapons.

If someone discovers a thing she once thought innocent is actually destructive, it's best to stop using the thing.

It's so subjective Burris, not your explanation which I understand (admire your ability to express,I be shit at that) but how to cross all the borders of just about every culture to make this important. The most important.

Watched a programme with the 12 year old regarding abortion tonight. Explained all the important parts answered the questions, quick lesson in extreme views. Both. Quick talk on her faith school (Yeah I know, awkward.) Facts.I don't really think you can go wrong with fact. Present a balanced view. This has no baring really except she asked me about the Jordanian pilot. IS. It made me wonder what the parents of these kids answered on similar issues we face . What on earth did they say. What led these 'privileged' as the term is used, choose this path? IS does not even pretend to hide behind pretended religious ideology as AQ did.

All the community activism in the world which is a huge step is not stopping the relentless and worsening hatred. It appears to be getting worse.

[OkToBeTakei]

Where are those posted and I will jump in! I don't read and can't read every thread anymore. (Although ten years ago I could actually read every thread every day on FJ).

:lol: Those were the days. I was but an interloper. A toddler :lol:

ETA Actually only 3 years ago. I was a fanny. You live and learn.

[Burris]

All the community activism in the world which is a huge step is not stopping the relentless and worsening hatred. It appears to be getting worse.

I think it might end up improving.

Global prejudices are more accessible now that the internet allows people with similar views to virtually get together. But the thing has another edge: Accurate information is also easier to access - and government-sponsored programs of historical denial, for example, are a whole lot harder to pull off.

[OkToBeTakei]

I think it might end up improving.

Global prejudices are more accessible now that the internet allows people with similar views to virtually get together. But the thing has another edge: Accurate information is also easier to access - and government-sponsored programs of historical denial, for example, are a whole lot harder to pull off.

I hope so. As I mentioned the internet is a double edged sword. Everybody with a phone can watch a man burn to death today. How would history be different if the genocides of the past could have been accessed so easily. Not so easy to sweep aside. Not so easy to dismiss as somebody else's horror.

I like to think we would not be having this discussion. Time will tell.

[StellaMarie]

I think I understand what you're saying, but the responsibility for overcoming prejudice always ends up with the biased person. It can't rest anywhere else in the end, since the recognition of bias (and its correction) are ultimately personal matters.

Ending prejudice is a legitimate target of community activism, but the people who make up those communities have to decide individually not to perpetuate those ideas anymore; not to accept them at all. They have to recognize, among other things, that it doesn't really matter how a slur originated. Whatever the thing started as, it's now a verbal weapon people use against each other - sometimes ahead of using other kinds of weapons.

If someone discovers a thing she once thought innocent is actually destructive, it's best to stop using the thing.

QFT.

I've started to type a post several times and it doesn't come out the way I want it to, especially because I don't want it to be perceived as calling out people here who are genuinely trying to engage in a conversation-- which is truly the opposite of my intent.

I think there is a certain amount of privilege that is exhibited when people claim to "not know" that/why certain things are offensive, or that stereotypes exist about certain groups. I don't think it's necessarily a function of living around "politically correct" people or living in a place without a certain population. These things come up in popular media, in movies and TV (especially comedy!), all the time. It's almost like they're only invisible to people who choose not to see them, or who don't "have" to see them (i.e., privilege).

Most of us have prejudices and stereotype people -- it's human nature to categorize people. I think it's important for all of us to try to identify them when we're making assumptions (any assumptions) about others. Whoever we're "othering."

[treemom]

:lol: Those were the days. I was but an interloper. A toddler :lol:

ETA Actually only 3 years ago. I was a fanny. You live and learn.

There used to be days where there might be one or two new posts a day.

[Mama Mia]

QFT.

I've started to type a post several times and it doesn't come out the way I want it to, especially because I don't want it to be perceived as calling out people here who are genuinely trying to engage in a conversation-- which is truly the opposite of my intent.

I think there is a certain amount of privilege that is exhibited when people claim to "not know" that/why certain things are offensive, or that stereotypes exist about certain groups. I don't think it's necessarily a function of living around "politically correct" people or living in a place without a certain population. These things come up in popular media, in movies and TV (especially comedy!), all the time. It's almost like they're only invisible to people who choose not to see them, or who don't "have" to see them (i.e., privilege).

Most of us have prejudices and stereotype people -- it's human nature to categorize people. I think it's important for all of us to try to identify them when we're making assumptions (any assumptions) about others. Whoever we're "othering."

I still do not understand why people would be surprised that someone hasn't heard or retained all of these various stereotypes about all these different groups --- there are just so many of them! That doesn't mean I haven't heard and remembered some sort of bigoted, idiotic statement in real life or the media about most groups -- just not particularly the stereotypes that came up in this thread.

I could rattle off a multitude of relatively common stereotyped beliefs and terms about the following groups: Mexicans, Anglos, Asians, African- Americans and Oaxacans. Also Rich People and Poor People, as distinct groups.

I could name off several - but a much lesser number- of stereotypes and derogatory terms regarding Southerners, Muslims and Jews. And even a few regarding El Salvadorians, Argentinians, Italians and Portuguese.

I'm sure if people named off other breakdowns of people I could think of stereotypes I might have heard about at least a few of them, but not off the top of my head.

I think the points about community are interesting. And in thinking about it, obviously local community and circle greatly impact what stereotypes are most prevalent. I worry more though about the double edged Internet sword. Especially with teenagers. It seems like it would make people more open minded, and in some ways it clearly has. The astoundingly rapid pace of acceptance of marriage equality for example. But the amount of pure hate and vile statements about anyone " other" , is really scary. To me. And it's mostly in that context that I think of sharing information to dispel myths is possibly helpful. If you have a string of 100 horrible comments on YouTube, I think that throwing in something that might dispel some myths , or maybe, possibly, get someone to think -- that might be good. Obviously it's still their responsibility to stop making dick statements, you can't control other people. But I think, especially if people don't have set views already, giving some alternate thing to think about might open a door.

[treemom]

I explained why I was surprised. I grew up with limited exposure to others, in an area that was not diverse and with limited access to pop culture and I believe that I knew that many of the examples here were problems.

That is why I am surprised.

[OkToBeTakei]

Let me know when you've actually read my posts (and Treemon's and FS).

Thought for a while about posting this, but hey ho.

In no way do I support what Idolatry says. When I read your statement though my heart sank. You picked the three people (including yourself) who identify as Jewish.

There have been many posters on this thread myself included trying to strike a balance or understanding. Maybe not well. Trying though.

It's not what I want to see. I find it ....words words....Can't find one. My thoughts and they are mine only, is that it probably affirms the exact opposite of what I hope you want and certainly what I want. Expressing my feelings in the written word is not my thing.

I do feel though to disregard all who do not agree, or differ is not altogether going to help.

[treemom]

I barely identify as Jewish. As in I was raised that way. I pretty much think like almost all religions is is severely flawed. I am not sure there could be someone who is more critical of the theology and religion than myself....I just am not a fan of stereotypes.

[feministxtian]

in my family, everything's a joke, from fried chicken and watermelon to tacos to bratwurst. We're equal opportunity offenders...but our family looks a lot like the united nations. I'm Cuban/German, my husband is NA/German/Irish, my children and their SOs cover what we don't.

My daughter in law is black...and the joke is "don't ever put fried chicken in front of a black chick". My daughter's boyfriend is Mexican, my other son's girlfriend is Korean. You should hear what a family dinner sounds like around here (and the menu is interesting).

[2xx1xy1JD]

Thought for a while about posting this, but hey ho.

In no way do I support what Idolatry says. When I read your statement though my heart sank. You picked the three people (including yourself) who identify as Jewish.

There have been many posters on this thread myself included trying to strike a balance or understanding. Maybe not well. Trying though.

It's not what I want to see. I find it ....words words....Can't find one. My thoughts and they are mine only, is that it probably affirms the exact opposite of what I hope you want and certainly what I want. Expressing my feelings in the written word is not my thing.

I do feel though to disregard all who do not agree, or differ is not altogether going to help.

Sorry - I didn't mean to exclude others. My first thought was really just to say "did you read what I posted?", but I thought it would be rude to ignore 2 others that were pretty much saying the same thing. I guess it ended up rude of me anyway, since I excluded you and others. Can I blame my laziness on the iPhone?

Anyhoo - as a peace offering, if anyone wants some quality Jewish religion snark, may I present a podcast of OMGWTFBIBLE? The Ten Commandments, like you've never heard them before.

http://jewcy.com/jewish-religion-and-be ... mmandments

More about the OMGWTFBIBLE project: http://jewcy.com/jewish-religion-and-be ... id-tuchman

In short: He takes a segment of the Hebrew Bible each week, does his own translation (which he does pretty well) and then proceeds to snark on it.

[treemom]

in my family, everything's a joke, from fried chicken and watermelon to tacos to bratwurst. We're equal opportunity offenders...but our family looks a lot like the united nations. I'm Cuban/German, my husband is NA/German/Irish, my children and their SOs cover what we don't.

My daughter in law is black...and the joke is "don't ever put fried chicken in front of a black chick". My daughter's boyfriend is Mexican, my other son's girlfriend is Korean. You should hear what a family dinner sounds like around here (and the menu is interesting).

I think the jokes you have within a family, especially one that is diverse are different than the way you communicate with those outside of the family.

[Mama Mia]

I think the jokes you have within a family, especially one that is diverse are different than the way you communicate with those outside of the family.

I think that's an interesting point. We have more than one ethnic group in my immediate family and people joke about stereotypes pretty freely. What I've noticed with my younger kids ( mid-twenties) is that they and their friends ( multi-ethnic) do this among themselves pretty casually as well. But since they grew up on social media -- they will post things that are casual jokes to them ---- but I think might be pretty offensive to others.

[Snarkle Motion]

Oh please. It's pretty harsh to call someone a "bigot" for posting something that offended your widdle feelings. On the front page, there is worse, even more offensive stuff about Mormons, Baptists, Catholics, ATI, and whatever Adeye and the Maxwells are. And that's just right this second.

This whole forum is full of multiple threads that offend many people's religious beliefs, though apparently this religion is so awesome it is off limits. It's the only one that has pages and pages of whining and name calling because someone said something offensive.

People used words in their comments that you found offensive and "harsh". Poor you! So sorry your widdle feelings got hurt. Calling people nasty names should be off limits! :naughty:

[Snarkle Motion]

Oh please. It's pretty harsh to call someone a "bigot" for posting something that offended your widdle feelings. On the front page, there is worse, even more offensive stuff about Mormons, Baptists, Catholics, ATI, and whatever Adeye and the Maxwells are. And that's just right this second.

This whole forum is full of multiple threads that offend many people's religious beliefs, though apparently this religion is so awesome it is off limits. It's the only one that has pages and pages of whining and name calling because someone said something offensive.

I've been lurking this forum for only a couple weeks and in that short time I've seen posts critical of the sexism and extremism in Kiryas Joel as well as snarking on the eruv magic string. Judaism isn't off limits. But there's a difference between criticism/snark and perpetuating hateful stereotypes.

If a commenter wrote: "I watched some rap videos so now I understand black culture. Black people only care about sex and fulfilling their animal instincts." People would rightfully call out this commenter as being racist. This person might not have been intentionally racist but its racist none-the-less and pretty understandable that it would offend people. Not only is this comment ignorant and offensive, it is also dangerous as it represents a historically significant stereotype that was used to justify years of oppression. This isn't just a case of someone saying something mean its about correcting and calling out language that has historical significance and subtly perpetuates racism.

I too grew up in a patriarchal, financially controlling, educationally isolationist faith with a bunch of stupid rules about dress codes and food. But it wasn't Jewish, so I don't have a cool word to scream racism every time anyone criticizes the Duggars.

So sorry the discrimination of your religion hasn't been historically significant enough to warrant a "cool word". Lucky Jews!

Okay, I've said what I needed to say. Back to what brought me here in the first place - my unhealthy fascination with all things Duggar and Bates. 8-)

[feministxtian]

I think that's an interesting point. We have more than one ethnic group in my immediate family and people joke about stereotypes pretty freely. What I've noticed with my younger kids ( mid-twenties) is that they and their friends ( multi-ethnic) do this among themselves pretty casually as well. But since they grew up on social media -- they will post things that are casual jokes to them ---- but I think might be pretty offensive to others.

This is very true. Some of the things my kids say to their friends makes me cringe a bit. BUT...to them its not a big deal. Things that would have been an insult when I was MUCH younger is now just a thing. My middle son and his army buddies are probably the worst offenders. They are RUDE! But, to them it's all a joke. I guess that's how they learned to cope with being in a warzone. I do enjoy reading their facebook "slams" though, it's pretty funny!

[Rebelwife]

I think that's an interesting point. We have more than one ethnic group in my immediate family and people joke about stereotypes pretty freely. What I've noticed with my younger kids ( mid-twenties) is that they and their friends ( multi-ethnic) do this among themselves pretty casually as well. But since they grew up on social media -- they will post things that are casual jokes to them ---- but I think might be pretty offensive to others.

One of the things I try to impress on my children is "be aware of your audience." (This goes for profanity as well.) My kids and their cousins have a number of inside jokes about Asians being good at math, because 2 of their cousins are Chinese and one of them positively sucks at math. It's funny to all of them, but they know if they EVER said something like that where anyone who didn't know the background could hear them, they'd be in big trouble.

Kids do say a lot of things to each other that they might not think are offensive to anyone in their peer group, but I try to gently point out that just because no one in the group says they are offended doesn't mean they aren't. People, especially young people Who are just trying to fit in, are often afraid to rock the boat and be "that person. "

[Mama Mia]

One of the things I try to impress on my children is "be aware of your audience." (This goes for profanity as well.) My kids and their cousins have a number of inside jokes about Asians being good at math, because 2 of their cousins are Chinese and one of them positively sucks at math. It's funny to all of them, but they know if they EVER said something like that where anyone who didn't know the background could hear them, they'd be in big trouble.

Kids do say a lot of things to each other that they might not think are offensive to anyone in their peer group, but I try to gently point out that just because no one in the group says they are offended doesn't mean they aren't. People, especially young people Who are just trying to fit in, are often afraid to rock the boat and be "that person. "

Yeah, I said a lot of that sort of thing when they were younger -- but they are grown ups now. So it's not really appropriate to scold them :lol: .

[amydamy]

I explained why I was surprised. I grew up with limited exposure to others, in an area that was not diverse and with limited access to pop culture and I believe that I knew that many of the examples here were problems.

That is why I am surprised.

I'm not Jewish and I was surprised as well. I did grow up in an area with a large Jewish population (Ocean County, NJ) but we did discuss differnt Jewish stereotypes mainly in History but also in English when we read Othello. Maybe we covered it more extensively based on where I lived but I assumed people at least touched on it in school when they studied WWII.

[feministxtian]

My kids are grown...so they say what they say. For example...my husband is also part Polish...so we tell him he's 0 for 3...blonde, male and Polish. My daughter in law can't cook...so she gets told she's not really black b/c she can't cook fried chicken. Kevin (oldest's SO) gets blasted for having a "white" name while eating enchiladas...Diana (middle's SO) gets teased b/c she doesn't like KimChee...

Middle's army buddies take it to a WHOLE new level of rude. Jokes about rednecks, Asians eating dogs, all sorts of really ugly (but funny as hell) stuff goes on.

But...it's not really done "in public" though...they do have a wee bit of couth.