Abigails Pregnancy Progress

[GeoBQn]

Abigail has been warned that her current pregnancy could have problems with the placenta, so she had been on modified bed rest and enduring a lot of other restrictions. She just went to see a high-risk OBGYN, who told her that the placenta was fine, but also that she should get a tubal ligation after her C-section. Abigail explains that this isn't an option because she is Catholic. The doctor says that he is Catholic too, and suggest that she get sterilized without telling anyone.

So, how much of this exchange do you think actually happened?

abigails-alcove.blogspot.com/2014/08/the-struggle-to-be-both-faithful-and.html

[MonkeyMomma]

Wow, I've been lurking a long time, but I had a baby and just finished summer term sooo ....

I wouldn't doubt at least some of it happened. My mom encountered a similar conversation when she was pregnant with my youngest brother and facing a fourth cesarean. Personally, if I was a doctor and the response I got from suggesting a tubal was "But I'm Catholic!" I'd just nod politely and make sure I clearly cover the risks of subsequent pregnancies and cesareans and then drop it. There's absolutely no use in getting into it with someone who is the World's Best Catholic on these things.

What's more concerning to me is the panic attack that ensued after her consult. She's clearly terrified of the risk of another pregnancy and birth, but she's convinced that her only way to avoid it 10 years of abstinence.

Oh, and the "abortion as back up for sterilization"? :wtf: Why would that automatically be where your brain would go?

[polecat]

Abigail has been warned that her current pregnancy could have problems with the placenta, so she had been on modified bed rest and enduring a lot of other restrictions. She just went to see a high-risk OBGYN, who told her that the placenta was fine, but also that she should get a tubal ligation after her C-section. Abigail explains that this isn't an option because she is Catholic. The doctor says that he is Catholic too, and suggest that she get sterilized without telling anyone.

So, how much of this exchange do you think actually happened?

abigails-alcove.blogspot.com/2014/08/the-struggle-to-be-both-faithful-and.html

I don't for a second believe that any OB would threaten her with an "accidental" tubal ligation. That's beyond malpractice and getting into criminal territory right there.

A pro-life conundrum: Why is it that Abigail's life is worth so much less than the potential lives of all her not-yet-conceived babies?

I had a similar situation, in that I'd had repeated losses and multiple c-sections (three in three years, to be precise), and I was told in no uncertain circumstances by my ob (who was the head of a reputable medical school's OB department) that I should not risk another pregnancy, that I'd be risking both my life and the life of my baby. There was absolutely no question that I'd follow his recommendations. I had three living children who needed me, and their well-being was more important to me than any potential baby's.

ETA: I'm surprised her ob didn't mention placenta accreta. That was my ob's primary concern.

[Arete]

First I'm calling bullshit that an ultrasound tech is going to say to a doctor in front of a patient that this or that is off the table when it comes to a procedure that could save a life down the line. Up here that would have been grounds to fire her on the spot. Techs do not give opinions on treatments....EVER.

The only parts of that exchange that happened is the doctor told her she is playing roulette with uterine rupture in subsequent pregnancies and she should get her tubes tied. He also may have told her he too was Catholic when Abigail played that card. The rest is made up. In her mind, your either an obedient martyr or your a shiftless cultural Catholic who will lie rather than obey the holy Church. Because Catholics who can see the writing on the wall, get their tubes tied, and remain practicing members of the church don't exist for her.

[lilwriter85]

I think the part about a Catholic OB telling her to get a tubal ligation and not saying anything to people could be true. Abigail does need to get off the SuperCatholic high horse.

[EmiGirl]

I'm not sure that she understands that the doctor isn't just concerned about her losing her uterus to uterine rupture, but losing her life due to uterine rupture. That's a pretty serious thing.

[slickcat79]

This conversation with the Guru goes no where. He's so upset. He says "What happens if there is just an 'accident' with your tubes during the c-section?" I ask myself, "Am I in the middle of a Grey's Anatomy Script?"

Abigail, the doctor was not suggesting that he would accidentally-on-purpose perform a tubal ligation without your permission. He is just trying to give you an excuse to use with others if you decide to go that route because you sound crazy.

I'm completely silent. I'm sort of stunned that all this personal stuff comes roaring out of him in the middle of a medical appointment. The whole "My Mother doesn't approve of my work, so I don't tell her the truth" felt like such a non-sequitur. Then I reminded myself that this is what happens when I show up places with a giant pregnant belly. People just volunteer their inner most details.

YOU are the one who brought up the fact that you're catholic in the middle of a medical appointment, as an excuse for why you couldn't have a recommended medical procedure. YOU are the one blurring the lines between religion and your health. You showed up with a "giant pregnant belly" because it is a doctor's consult ON YOUR PREGNANCY :?

Then I'm trying to figure out the take-away advice from his speech. Does the Guru want me to just lie to my priest and get a tubal ligation anyway? Because it's not like my local parish priest is forcing me to risk death in order to have another baby. I'm the one trying to figure out an ethical decision, for myself!

I started looking up the church teachings. I found this document from the Vatican written by Pope Benedict and approved by Saint John Paul II. Somehow, just knowing that my Catholic Church has already studied the issue and written an official guideline calmed my soul. I'm not just hanging out here having to guess "What would Jesus do?"

If you are trying to work out a personal ethical dilemma, why are you consulting the Vatican teachings? What would a couple of (possibly) celibate popes who have no experience with pregnancy know about women's health? And why would their opinions matter more than that of Jesus, anyway? SO frustrating.

Somehow having two women tell him that this is against the Catholic Faith sets the Guru off. He starts this 10 minute tirade at me. He says "I'm a Catholic! There is Catholic and then there is Catholic! You've got to make your own decisions when it's Life and Death."

Yes, that sounds remarkably sensible. Because people like that are the ones who have to frantically struggle to save the lives of people like Abigail when they come in hemorrhaging after a miscarriage or bleed out on the table. People who are too holy to even have a D&C for missed miscarriage or would somehow prefer an emergency hysterectomy to a simple tubal. And it's not even Because Jesus, it's Because Vatican.

We live in a crazy culture. The hardest part for me, is that it's a struggle to get solid, medical facts. There are a lot of opinions. There is a lot of hysteria. There is little data, facts, and options. Honestly, I feel like I have to homeschool myself in Medical School just to be able to make informed decisions about my own medical care.

NO. You got perfectly sound medical advice from a qualified doctor, you just chose to ignore it. You can't blame the medical community for not giving you options because they interfere with your ability to play SuperCatholic.

[chaotic life]

I had an OB joked about an accidental ligation in my last pregnancy. It was a joke. She knew it and I knew it. She was not my primary OB but her sister and partner and I very clearly told her I did NOT consent to the ligation just in case she got confused at any point. However, I understood she was joking in the first place.

I have absolutely NO idea what she is referring to about a back up abortion as birth control unless she's read some nonsense that claims tubal ligation causes abortions.

I believe the MFM told her she looked great even when her OB was freaked out. I've seen that personally that OBs freak out of things where MFMs are totally laidback and have no concerns. It simply has to do with the fact that MFMs see nothing but high risks all day long and recognize soft versus hard markers for risk. I also believe the MFM told her she needs to stop having babies. It's not just her uterus that doctor is worried about but her life AND the life of any future child she might carry.

I just love the arrogance that Abigail is going to homeschool medical school and can obviously know better, with the guidance of her church, better than doctors who actually went to medical school.

[pikapika]

As someone else pointed out, the part about the technician entering the conversation is likely not true, but I do believe the part that the doctor told her to just get it and not tell anyone, as he doesn't know of her own personal situation, what if it was her husband that wanted to keep having and having kids? I know I mentioned it before but my sister who works in a hospital in Mexico has told me of times when a mom has asked them to please tie her tubes and not tell anyone, my sister and co-workers do that because they want to safeguard this woman's health and the children she already has. I don't follow Abigail, I've read a couple of posts but what I don't understand is why she just won't use natural birth control, as far as I know that is approved, heck when my husband and I were going through the steps to get married by the Catholic church we had to take a natural family planning class! And every single catholic hospital in the area offered an introductory course plus additional consultations for those interested. But I guess she won't achieve "sanctity" that way. :pull-hair:

[sparkles]

I honestly believe that some of these fundy women who have been counseled not to risk further pregnancies really DO want to die. After all, how better to prove how pious you are than to sacrifice your life? Of course, dying during pregnancy or childbirth means one of two things for your fetus/child. Either it dies along with you or you condemn it to a life in therapy because "YOUR MOTHER DIED TO GIVE YOU LIFE!" Talk about survivor guilt…

I guess for some it's all "she who dies with the most kids wins." That's some major WTF-ery.

[Arete]

The Catholic MFM has a Catholic mother who is so ashamed his job occasionally involves tying tubes that he doesn't discuss work in front of her? Riiiiiiight. That one is definitely the mind ravings of a convert.

[chaotic life]

Not discussing shop likely has nothing to do with religion between the MFM and his midwife mother. It likely has everything to do with a difference of approach to pregnancy and childbirth. The MFM comes from a medical model of care. The midwife, whether she is a nurse-midwife or a lay-midwife, comes from a midwifery model, and possibly a nursing model of care. They see the equation differently and come to a difference conclusion for the same situation. Out of respect to not insult his mother or imply her care is inferior or less skilled, the MFM chooses to not discuss his work with her instead.

Midwives don't do tubal ligations, not even nurse-midwives. However, properly trained their focus is on healthy, non-pathological pregnancies and deliveries. MFMs are only brought into a case after its already gone bad in the first place. Two entirely different ends of the spectrum. I actually see that as a sign of respect for the MFM to not discuss what he does at work with his mother, to show respect for the care she gave as a midwife and not see her as inferior per se but dealing with an entirely different patient population.

[Arete]

Oh I agree. But in Abigail's convert pickled brain, the MFM is afraid of his mother's delicate Catholic sensibilities. Because Abigail actually hasn't had real exposure to the lives of cradle Catholic women and doesn't really want to get any, she is completely unfamiliar with the vast level of ways they reconcile their faith with their lives. This is true for any religious convert who is studying the documents more than getting to know their community. And there certainly isn't the possibility of a son just being professionally respectful of his mother.

[divadivine]

Abigail is a loon. If you are Catholic & so conflicted about the whole situation and went to the Bishop & told him "My doctor says I should not have any more children because my life is in danger" any reasonable Bishop would say "Don't have more children. Do what the doctor says." I worked with a lady whose mother was told by her OB "You ovulate twice a month. You cannot get pregnant again. If you do, you will die.You need to be on birth control or have a tubal ligation." She went to the Bishop & he told her "Raising the children you have is more important than being fruitful & multiplying. Do what the doctor has suggested. You have dispensation." She went on birth control & never had more children. She went into menopause after a few years of being on the pill ( she was in her mid 40's when she had to go on the pill). She was a cradle Catholic & followed the church's teachings to the letter... But realized being alive & on the pill was better than dying due to complications from pregnancy.

[EmiGirl]

I wonder if Abigail has actually spoken with her priest or bishop or if she's just assuming that they'll tell her to keep having babies and die trying.

[2xx1xy1JD]

While I'm not sure that the conversation happened exactly as she describes, I could believe that a Catholic doctor would be more likely to get into a discussion with Abigail about religious restrictions than a non-Catholic doctor.

I see this a bit with my husband. He gets frustrated whenever anyone refuses good medical advice, but he knows that with some religions, there are simply red lines that people will refuse to cross. So, for example, if an adult JW patient who is competent makes it clear that they will never consent to a blood transfusion, even if it means that they will die, he knows that all he can do is make sure that the patient is fully informed and is not being coerced. He thinks that particular religious rule is crazy, but doesn't feel that it's his job to deal with someone else's beliefs. With Jewish patients, though, it would be closer to home. Our hospital has both religious Jewish doctors and patients. If a patient said "I can't do X because it's against Jewish law", I can totally see my husband jumping in, mentioning exceptions and suggesting a talk with the Jewish chaplain or our rabbi, because it wouldn't be about some Crazy Other Religion for him. I don't think it would be out of place for him to do it, since he does have the background to know what is and isn't allowed and to know that the religion itself allows many medical exceptions, and he has a rapport with some of the local rabbis who deal with these questions. So, if he says, "your blood pressure is really high, you are showing symptoms of cardiac problems, you need to go to the ER by ambulance NOW even if it is Yom Kippur and I can get the rabbi to tell you that you should go", that's part of treating the patient (and being on call at the synagogue when someone inevitably faints on Yom Kippur).

[Arete]

I wonder if Abigail has actually spoken with her priest or bishop or if she's just assuming that they'll tell her to keep having babies and die trying.

I'll bet good money the answer is "No". Because as sparkles alluded to, for a religious fanatic martyrdom trumps sound morality and theology.

My faith does an extensive fast for the 50 days of Lent. Not only strict veganism, but some days only 1 meal and at least one day of only raw food as necessary. Except their are rules around this fast so people do not kill themselves: No pregnant women, no nursing women, no people who are traveling more than half a day, no chronically I'll people. It is frowned upon to allow growing children to fully participate. Every year a handful of fanatics with diabetes, or cancer, or some other condition will consult a priest, will be told no, you cannot fast, or if your doctor disapproves, you cannot fast. Guess what? The fanatic will fast and pass out anyway. The church said no, the doctor said no. The rules allow for exceptions. The martyr still doesn't get it and doesn't want to. That is Abigail.

Abigail isn't going to go to the parish priest or the bishop. She knows they aren't going to order her to risk her life, but then how would being Catholic be special for her?

[fun2beme]

If she feels so strongly about it, she should find a doctor who has the same beliefs. A devout Catholic friend of mine goes to Catholic OB/GYN who strictly adheres to the Vatican's teachings and won't tie tubes, prescribe birth control, etc. I'm not sure if she'd prescribe the pill for someone who needs it for health reasons though. When my friend had surgery, her doctor came in and prayed with her before heading to the OR and gave her a set of plastic rosaries to keep in her hands during surgery. My friend thought it was wonderful but I found it to be odd. I'm a practicing Catholic and would have definitely been taken aback if my surgeon had done that when I had my surgery. To me, what matters most is my health and getting the best care, not what my doctor's religion is.

Oddly, though, despite there being several Catholic hospitals in the area, her doctor had admitting privileges at a Jewish hospital... given that the basis of her practice was her faith, I thought that was unusual.

[Coconut Flan]

My faith does an extensive fast for the 50 days of Lent. Not only strict veganism, but some days only 1 meal and at least one day of only raw food as necessary. Except their are rules around this fast so people do not kill themselves: No pregnant women, no nursing women, no people who are traveling more than half a day, no chronically I'll people. It is frowned upon to allow growing children to fully participate. Every year a handful of fanatics with diabetes, or cancer, or some other condition will consult a priest, will be told no, you cannot fast, or if your doctor disapproves, you cannot fast. Guess what? The fanatic will fast and pass out anyway. The church said no, the doctor said no. The rules allow for exceptions. The martyr still doesn't get it and doesn't want to. That is Abigail.

I had that discussion with a priest and a bishop. Their first comment was do NOT pass out. I was appalled when a woman in the congregation with diabetes, high blood pressure, and some other problems proudly told me about how she fasted faithfully.

[GeoBQn]

I felt the same way hearing about Orthodox Jewish women who fast on Yom Kippur while pregnant. I was taught that pregnant and nursing women, the ill, and children shouldn't fast. I've even seen recent discussions about how people with eating disorders should be exempt from fasting because it could cause a relapse.

[utter solitude]

I had that discussion with a priest and a bishop. Their first comment was do NOT pass out. I was appalled when a woman in the congregation with diabetes, high blood pressure, and some other problems proudly told me about how she fasted faithfully.

What a huge ego trip that must be!! "God protected me when even His priest and my doctor were wrong!"

[lawfulevil]

Oh for FUCK'S sake, not Abigail AGAIN.

[bea]

She's just so super-special, you guys. I mean, having your high-risk MFM doctor start talking to you about how your shared faith might allow for a tubal ligation so you don't DIE from a uterine rupture because it's a reality at this point, if you have more kids - I mean, OMG! How dare the Maternal-Fetal-Medicine doctor handling your high-risk pregnancy tell you that subsequent pregnancies are a bad idea, regardless of religious belief, because you can't be a sanctimonious twit if you're DEAD.

Her priest, bishop, or cardinal would NOT be cheering her on in risking her life continuously with continual higher and higher risk pregnancies, especially when it's pretty clear that Abigail has some emotional issues and an unhealthy fixation on pregnancy as proof of faith. Not that she would ask, or this would stop her, because if there's one thing reading her blog has shown me, it's that Abigail's world is very different than the one the rest of us live in.

[treemom]

Um in what world would a MFM do a tubal ligation? I call bullshit on the ashamed mother. Unless he said in the past when he was a non MFM OBGYN

They consult and provide care during pregnancy. It is unusual for them to deliver and unheard of to do a post delivery sterilization. Maybe I am wrong, not having had a c-section (although that was the plan before I sat up and a baby popped out of my vag - seriously) but my MFM was an advisor and a consultant to my primary OBGYN during my pregnancies and treated/monitored me for the high risk.

In fact, I would have never seen him at all if I hadn't been for the I'm not good at being pregnant bit before my son. But I was referred out after to late term losses and when I developed the HEG from hell he managed part of that care.

[chaotic life]

There are some MFMs who still deliver babies. It's my understand that they are rare. My MFM had just stopped delivering babies about two years before I first saw her. The hospital threw a fit that she not only delivered a set of twins vaginally but manually rotated the second twin internally to avoid a c-section. Like most MFMs she was low intervention and decided it was easier to stop delivering that agree to the hospital's high intervention CYA policies anymore.