Real Life Fundie Encountersâ„¢ Part 2

[It'sFunToRun]

[Haligh the Liar]

Seriously, Pennsatucky?

On this board, we frequently and rightfully critique Christian fundamentalist groups that compel women into restrictive clothing and behavior based on their religious views. For example, all sorts of hikers and outdoorsy people excoriated the Maxwells for wearing ankle length skirts while climbing 14ers. Yet, I am 100% positive that if anyone asked Terri, Sarah, Anna, Mary, NR Anna or Melanie about their wardrobe, they would insist that it is their free choice to dress in such a fashion.

But it's not a free choice. The deeply entrenched patriarchal misogyny of fundamentalist Christianity motivates these women to wear such things, and they are further encouraged/forced by the men in their lives, who are literally in charge of them, based on religious strictures.

Muslim women in burkas/niqabs/abayas, etc are no different. It's impossible to separate the extent to which a woman might actually be freely choosing to wear restrictive religiously mandated clothing, versus the extent to which misogynist religions and religious leaders compel it.

The Christian bible doesn't speak of frumpers, the Torah doesn't delineate the strict and confining clothing rules for orthodox women, nor does the Koran mandate niqab. "If you must ask his [Muhammad's] wives for anything, ask them from behind a curtain (literally, hijab). This is purer for your hearts and for their hearts." This verse refers to physical veiling in the case of the wives of the prophet, other verses bespeak contemporary standards of modesty. Accepting for the moment these holy books as divinely inspired, it is only in the man-made interpretation that results in misogyny in dress.

I can't speak to Hooligan's meaning, but I refuse to play the cultural relativism game, it feels too much like hypocrisy to me.

[Hooligan]

Seriously, Pennsatucky?

On this board, we frequently and rightfully critique Christian fundamentalist groups that compel women into restrictive clothing and behavior based on their religious views. For example, all sorts of hikers and outdoorsy people excoriated the Maxwells for wearing ankle length skirts while climbing 14ers. Yet, I am 100% positive that if anyone asked Terri, Sarah, Anna, Mary, NR Anna or Melanie about their wardrobe, they would insist that it is their free choice to dress in such a fashion.

But it's not a free choice. The deeply entrenched patriarchal misogyny of fundamentalist Christianity motivates these women to wear such things, and they are further encouraged/forced by the men in their lives, who are literally in charge of them, based on religious strictures.

Muslim women in burkas/niqabs/abayas, etc are no different. It's impossible to separate the extent to which a woman might actually be freely choosing to wear restrictive religiously mandated clothing, versus the extent to which misogynist religions and religious leaders compel it.

The Christian bible doesn't speak of frumpers, the Torah doesn't delineate the strict and confining clothing rules for orthodox women, nor does the Koran mandate niqab. "If you must ask his [Muhammad's] wives for anything, ask them from behind a curtain (literally, hijab). This is purer for your hearts and for their hearts." This verse refers to physical veiling in the case of the wives of the prophet, other verses bespeak contemporary standards of modesty. Accepting for the moment these holy books as divinely inspired, it is only in the man-made interpretation that results in misogyny in dress.

I can't speak to Hooligan's meaning, but I refuse to play the cultural relativism game, it feels too much like hypocrisy to me.

Thank you. You have said artfully what I was struggling to say. Yes. THIS ^^^

[pennsatuckey]

Seriously, Pennsatucky?

On this board, we frequently and rightfully critique Christian fundamentalist groups that compel women into restrictive clothing and behavior based on their religious views. For example, all sorts of hikers and outdoorsy people excoriated the Maxwells for wearing ankle length skirts while climbing 14ers. Yet, I am 100% positive that if anyone asked Terri, Sarah, Anna, Mary, NR Anna or Melanie about their wardrobe, they would insist that it is their free choice to dress in such a fashion.

But it's not a free choice. The deeply entrenched patriarchal misogyny of fundamentalist Christianity motivates these women to wear such things, and they are further encouraged/forced by the men in their lives, who are literally in charge of them, based on religious strictures.

Muslim women in burkas/niqabs/abayas, etc are no different. It's impossible to separate the extent to which a woman might actually be freely choosing to wear restrictive religiously mandated clothing, versus the extent to which misogynist religions and religious leaders compel it.

The Christian bible doesn't speak of frumpers, the Torah doesn't delineate the strict and confining clothing rules for orthodox women, nor does the Koran mandate niqab. "If you must ask his [Muhammad's] wives for anything, ask them from behind a curtain (literally, hijab). This is purer for your hearts and for their hearts." This verse refers to physical veiling in the case of the wives of the prophet, other verses bespeak contemporary standards of modesty. Accepting for the moment these holy books as divinely inspired, it is only in the man-made interpretation that results in misogyny in dress.

I can't speak to Hooligan's meaning, but I refuse to play the cultural relativism game, it feels too much like hypocrisy to me.

Regarding dress code for women in Christianity: http://rcg.org/questions/p201.a.html

And in Judaism://www.myjewishlearning.com/prac ... esty.shtml

Did you completely ignore the part where she literally called a Muslim woman a "black tent"?

Also, fucking read:

http://people.opposingviews.com/wearing ... -5926.html

http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/fe ... uslim-wome

http://newamericamedia.org/2014/04/youn ... phobia.php

http://sfqomhz.wordpress.com/2013/07/10 ... or-choice/

If those aren't good enough for you, have some fucking articles published in journals:

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/.VAPEV0tH3FI

http://irep.iium.edu.my/24395/

If you read my posts, I literally say that while I disagree with the nature of requiring or asking women to cover themselves, but what Hooligan was saying was racist, Islamophobic, and dehumanizing and should not be tolerated.

Plenty of Muslim women in the West choose to wear hijab as a symbol of their faith. It's when they're required to do it that becomes more of a problem.

I'm sick and tired of Western, liberal feminism being used as an excuse to speak over women in hijab to insist on their behalf that they are oppressed. I am sick and tired of the racism and cultural ignorance that often accompanies it; case in point, Hooligan's post. That's why I'm angry and that's why I've provided many sources from Western Muslim women regarding hijab.

Women in hijab should not have to change what makes them comfortable to suit Western feelings and comfort. Western culture does not require assimilation.

Just fucking apologize for calling a Muslim woman a tent and understand that it's fucked up to do that. That's literally all I'm asking for

[Haligh the Liar]

She was describing the full abaya/niqab look as a black tent, which is what it looks like. Women in FLDS dresses over special underthings look incredibly warm, constantly, with hair that seems a twisted cross between Little House on the Prairie and 80s hair metal. US fun dies get mocked all the time for looking frumperlicious and so forth. I think the wig restrictions on married orthodox Jewish women are restrictive and awful as well.

None of these descriptions mock or insult the PEOPLE wearing them, merely the garb itself and the belief system that both reinforces and is reinforced by it.

I was unable to access the journal articles you provided via your links, but if you send me the titles, volumes, and so forth, I'm happy to look them up to learn more. Luckily, I have access privileges at several academic libraries as part of my work and research.

Edit: After re-reading http://sfqomhz.wordpress.com/2013/07/10/hijab-compulsion-or-choice/, the author cites the same verse that I did, and draws a similar conclusion in a different context. Mandating veiling is a policy of man, not god.

[Haligh the Liar]

I have read lots of Leila Ahmed's writings, and I agree that the veil is often used by Westerners to dismiss and insult Islam and Islamic societies as a whole. Focusing on one thing to make a point, ignoring the true issues in national and internal politics and policy, is ignorant and often used as a smokescreen for more nefarious intentions (US invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq, for example).

I have been fortunate enough to have been able to speak with several Muslim friends, co-workers, and students, all of whom interpreted and wore hijab differently, including not at all. I understand that for many women, veiling is a political act and a sign of social solidarity, as the personal is political for feminists the world over. That does not change the basis of veiling residing in sexism and misogyny, spread and endorsed by religion.

[Curious]

I haven't seen fundamentalist Christians wearing burqa. With the level of observation of fundie culture here, I think we'd know about it.

I don't have much to add that hasn't been said well by others already, but I will point out that this particular argument is almost always a non-starter. Just because YOU have not had the experience doesn't make it false.

Everyone has different experiences, even people living in the same towns can have different experiences due to the places they go, the circles they run in, etc.

So just because something hasn't happened to YOU doesn't mean that it doesn't exist anywhere else. It's dangerous to assume that just because you haven't experienced something it can't exist elsewhere.

[HereticHick]

Pennsatuckey, I think you lost me at the 10th or 12th F**K or so.

You know what really makes me angry about climate innappropriate cover it all up dress codes for women? Because, at the foundation, those codes are based on two primitive premises: 1. Men are sexual animals who cannot behave themselves. 2. Women are weak, and should be seen as a little as possible.

Does this make me racist and culturally ignorant? If so, fine. I stand by my Western feminism beliefs, which I do believe are BETTER for my sisters AND BROTHERS worldwide than some of the belief systems (including ATI) that have been imposed upon them by their families and their socieites.

[It'sFunToRun]

Pennsatuckey, I think you lost me at the 10th or 12th F**K or so.

You know what really makes me angry about climate innappropriate cover it all up dress codes for women? Because, at the foundation, those codes are based on two primitive premises: 1. Men are sexual animals who cannot behave themselves. 2. Women are weak, and should be seen as a little as possible.

Does this make me racist and culturally ignorant? If so, fine. I stand by my Western feminism beliefs, which I do believe are BETTER for my sisters AND BROTHERS worldwide than some of the belief systems (including ATI) that have been imposed upon them by their families and their socieites.

When someone says f*ck that many times, I get sexually excited and that makes it difficult to pay attention to what they are saying or take them seriously. :lol:

[shedemei]

Increasingly we have large numbers of Somali women in long skirts and full head covering showing only feet, face and hands. Most are very brightly colored and often decorated with sequins, fabric flowers and glitter. (if they are covering to be less attractive why do they want to draw attention?) I always wonder how they can stand the heat in all that polyester crap.

I imagine that it's standard and not eye-catching in their own community.

[Hooligan]

I called your racist ass out because you're being racist and islamophobic while only examining things through a western lens. You literally called a Muslim woman a walking tent and then proceeded to say that it was acceptable to dehumanize her.

Shut the fuck up.

I am sorry but I really do have to address one more thing. You called me racist. I think you may have used the term in an inappropriate way. You seem to be assuming that the woman in in the veil was of Middle Eastern descent. You also assume she was Muslim Why did you assume that? Not all Christians have blue eyes and blond hair and not all Muslims are Middle Eastern or have dark skin. In fact I could not have determined her race or religion at all as she was not only covered head to toe, but even her hands were in black gloves. In in the summer in the very humid heat. So I could in fact determine she was in some sort of very Fundie group. All I felt for her was sadness.

However, with her were three children. Two boys wearing shorts and tank tops and a little girl who was covered except for her hands and face. The children were all calling the woman "Mom" so I am going to go ahead and assume that they were her children. The children certainly did not appear to be remotely of middle Eastern descent. You might call me anti-fundie or possibly religionist, (is there such a word?) Or feminist, but I will not accept racist for not approving of any woman having to cover like that in the name of religion. Whatever that religion or faith might be.

[HereticHick]

Pennsatuckey, do you know what else is dehumanizing? Telling people to, and I quote, "Shut the Fuck Up."

It also tends not be the best method for arguing one's points.

[Haligh the Liar]

Luckily for everyone, telling me to shut the fuck up pretty much insures that I'll do the opposite. I'm cool like that.

[ViolaSebastian]

**slowly backs out of thread** :?

[quiversR4hunting]

I'm starting a new part-time job as an adjunct at a small college that is located in the middle of nowhere. As in - over an hour to a movie theater or walmart type store. I have been to campus twice and as I drive around this 45 degree curve I see a HUGE church in the middle of corn fields. Then I see a woman in a Mennonite/Amish peach dress walking across the field from (I assume) the pastor house to the church- close to 1/4 mile between house to church. The church is much too modern so I slow down (45 degree curve, great excuse to really check it out) and I read it's a Baptist church. THe dress is nothing like the Baptists I know. I also notice all these signs in the yards around the church with scripture on them - much like the verses at the country concert (in a different state) that I went to a couple weeks ago.

Last week was my 2nd week and a sign catches my eye- "Baptist College of the Bible" I go on line- they have a "college" in the church.

From their website:

OBJECTIVE

The objective of the Baptist College of the Bible is to give men and women a Bible based, Christ centered education for effective Christian living and service.

PURPOSE

The purpose of the Baptist College of the Bible is to prepare individuals as ministers of the gospel, missionaries, Sunday school administration, Sunday school teachers, lay shepherding, ambassadors for Jesus Christ, and Christian workers; and to cooperate with the local Bible believing Christian churches in promoting the “Gospel of Jesus Christ†through His words.

GOAL

The goal of the Baptist College of the Bible is to equip individuals to exegete the Bible accurately so that they can expound its truth to men, women and children

Here is the list of the "classes" The courses being offered Fall 2014 are as follows- I made comments on some of my "favorites".

Old Testament Survey Mon. 5:30-7:00 - wait, what? There was a survey in the old testament? Missed that in 6 years of Catholic school and 6 more years of CCD.

Greek Syntax Mon. and Wed. 5:30-7:00

Old Testament History Mon. 5:30-7:00

Elements of Biblical Greek Mon. 7:05-8:35 and Wed. 8:30-10:00

Acts Mon. 7:05-8:35

Nouthetic Counseling I Mon. 7:05-8:35 :think: I must be dumb, what is this?

Light, Sport Airplane Ground School Mon. 7:05-8:35 :cray-cray:

Bible Doctrines I Mon. 8:40-10:10

Pauline Epistles Mon. 8:40-10:10

Elements of Hebrew Mon. 8:40-10:10

English Grammar I Tues. 5:30-7:00

Study of the Gospels I Tues. 5:30-7:00

Science in the Bible Tues. 5:30-7:00

New Testament Survey I Tues. 7:05-8:35

English Writing/Composition I Tues. 7:05-8:35

Church Planting/Missiions Tues. 7:05-8:35

Biblical Finances Tues. 8:40-10:10

Post- Exilic Books Tues. 8:40-10:10 :think: Still dumb, what is this?

Defense of the Bible Tues. 8:40-10:10 :angry-banghead:

Secretarial Training Class Wed. 4:30-5:30 :evil: prob only women/girls

Speech Wed. 5:30-7:00

Computer/Digital Bible Study Wed. 5:30-7:00

Pentatech Wed. 8:30-10:00

Baptist History/Polity Wed. 8:30-10:00

Biblical Principles for Pastoring/ Pastoral Studies I Wednesday 8:15-9:05

[Coconut Flan]

A couple of them I can explain. OT survey could also be called overview. Post-exhilic books are after the exile. Nouthetic counseling is a fancy name for some form of fundyish Christian supposedly Bible based counseling.

Ground school is certainly different.

[quiversR4hunting]

A couple of them I can explain. OT survey could also be called overview. Post-exhilic books are after the exile. Nouthetic counseling is a fancy name for some form of fundyish Christian supposedly Bible based counseling.

Ground school is certainly different.

Thanks Coconut Flan! I looked up a few with wiki but was still confused - I'm still learning how to read and translate fundie :D

[Talitha Cumi]

Aha, I finally had one! I flew into Milwaukee last Thursday, and saw 3 young ladies in ankle-length skirts and bracelet-sleeve cardigans over t-shirts. They had the long, loose-curled hair of ATI girls, which, coupled with the Duggar-like modern modesty wear and the fact that Chicago is 1.5 hours away, made me assume Gothardism. When they were picked up by a lady in a denim frumper, I knew for sure. :)

I told Mr. Cumi what I saw, and he was amazed that I not only knew they were fundie but knew what sect. I asked him if he wanted to turn fundie and be in charge.

Me: I'd submit to you.

Him: Okay...

Me: You'd be the one to make all the decisions.

Him: Then nothing would ever get done.

Me: I could give my input, but you'd have to decide. All the responsibility would be yours.

Him: Can we go back to the way things were now? I don't like this.

Me: If you don't want to do it, I just have to pray all the time that God will change your heart.

Him: Yeah, you do that. :lol:

[Firiel]

Ground school is part of getting a pilot's license. My guess is there is someone who is certified to teach it and retired or something. He wants something to do, so he's teaching a class at his church's college or something.

[Jenny]

This past weekend a friend and I went to a Catholic pilgrimage. There were lectures, vespers, liturgies and other activities. We stopped for dinner on the way home and overheard another diner say "There is some kind of Jesus camp going on across the road".

The pilgrimage was nothing like the movie Jesus Camp.

*There were several larger than average families there and a couple families that appeared to be skirts only. However, most attendees seemed pretty average.

[Walking Cat Bed]

The preachers have descended on my campus. I've mostly been able to avoid them, but they like the area outside of the main library.

A few choice quotes:

(Walking out of a cafe-style food court)

Preacher du jour: "HOW ABOUT SEX?"

"Brother" Ross: "One of your professors has asked me to find a passage where it says Muslims and gays....or should I say, "homos," go to Hell. Well, let's start with the homos."

Girl: "How about we start with YOU, you a-hole!"

And the loudest of them likes to shout readings from the Bible, and is especially patronizing to the girls in hijab (he tends to ask if their father makes them wear hijab, if they get to choose their husband, etc). He also lectured me about thanking God, not him, for holding a door open when I had my hands full. Git.

[Walking Cat Bed]

I also passed by a Hare Krishna who was playing an accordion and singing. I didn't see anyone stop to talk with him. I'm not sure if he's a student...

[thenewclassic]

Not really a fundie encounter, but the other day two preschoolers I know asked me to read some books to them. The first book they pulled out was something like "The Catholic Child's Bible" and the next was about the Bernstein Bears discovering the true meaning of Easter. The back says they learn that "salvation is sweeter than candy". Needless to say, I asked them if they wanted to put on music instead :lol: :lol:

[Bethella]

So I was having lunch at a local fast food place this afternoon and saw a fundy family. There were eight kids, two parents and two presumably grandparents. Mom and the girls all wore frumpers made from the kind of material Lady Lydia likes. Dad had a polo and khakis while the little boys were in jeans and t-shirts. The kids stair stepped from roughly 15/16 to 6 months or so; the five oldest were girls, the three youngest were boys. The two oldest girls each had a baby on their hip (the 15/16 year old had the 6 month old and the 13/14 year old had the 2 year old), the 10/11 year old was holding hands with the 4 year old. Mom and Dad were holding each others hands. I noticed two interesting things- the presumed grandparents (who ate with them and left in the same 15 passenger van) were wearing normal shorts and t-shirts. And as they were leaving a large group of elderly people came in (an outing from the local assisted living place). The two youngest girls (the ones who weren't holding the little boys) held the doors for the entire busload of people coming in and I heard three comments from the elderly people about how well behaved the children were and how nice it was to see someone raising their children with good old-fashioned values and not letting them dress like sluts. I really had to bite my tongue not to comment on it.

[It'sFunToRun]

Not really a fundie encounter, but the other day two preschoolers I know asked me to read some books to them. The first book they pulled out was something like "The Catholic Child's Bible" and the next was about the Bernstein Bears discovering the true meaning of Easter. The back says they learn that "salvation is sweeter than candy". Needless to say, I asked them if they wanted to put on music instead :lol: :lol:

The last name "Bernstein" sounds suspiciously Jewish to be discovering the true meaning of Easter. Plus I remember reading the Bernstein bears when I was little and I didn't notice anything Jesusy in them.