19 Kids & Courting - Duggar Snark Season 8 - Part 5

[lascuba]

Interesting they do that in the Jewish Hassidic community. (Plan the wedding about the girls cycle).

I've read that many Hasidic women go on birth control in the months leading up to the wedding to ensures they can predict their cycles to the day, since they have to wait several days after they stop bleeding to have sex.

[Jana814]

I've read that many Hasidic women go on birth control in the months leading up to the wedding to ensures they can predict their cycles to the day, since they have to wait several days after they stop bleeding to have sex.

Yup that is what some do! They also sometimes have their weddings during the week to insure that this will happen. The usually NEVER have their weddings on Saturday (their Sabbath) but if the cyle says it will happen during the week that when is when the wedding will be sometimes they even change the date!

[socalrules]

It's funnny, my friend was married a few weeks ago and her period came the morning of the wedding, which was out of the ordinary but she thinks stress was a factor. She didn't even think it was a big deal but maybe since she had already had sex with the husband-to-be it didn't matter if they didn't have it that night.

I hope Jill enjoyed her big day. The hard work begins now because she and Derrick will finally get know each other, and I am not talking sexually, in ways that people who date learn about each other. It will be interesting because Derrick seems to have lived a pretty normal life in the world that Jill was sheltered from. I hope she gets to finally see the world on her own terms.

My only worry is the same worry I have for all of these young fundy women who go through courtship. Realistically, you court with the expectation that this is the one, perfect for you and the one you are supposed to be in love with. I worry that when these couples are finally married that they learn that the husband is not as perfect as they think, and I dont mean that they are dangerous or mean but maybe just what we would find normal, and they end up being disappointed. I think life becomes real once they get married, when for the rest of us, it is just a continuation of the life we were already living. Or, I could just be overthinking it as always.

[nokidsmom]

It's funnny, my friend was married a few weeks ago and her period came the morning of the wedding, which was out of the ordinary but she thinks stress was a factor. She didn't even think it was a big deal but maybe since she had already had sex with the husband-to-be it didn't matter if they didn't have it that night.

I hope Jill enjoyed her big day. The hard work begins now because she and Derrick will finally get know each other, and I am not talking sexually, in ways that people who date learn about each other. It will be interesting because Derrick seems to have lived a pretty normal life in the world that Jill was sheltered from. I hope she gets to finally see the world on her own terms.

My only worry is the same worry I have for all of these young fundy women who go through courtship. Realistically, you court with the expectation that this is the one, perfect for you and the one you are supposed to be in love with. I worry that when these couples are finally married that they learn that the husband is not as perfect as they think, and I dont mean that they are dangerous or mean but maybe just what we would find normal, and they end up being disappointed. I think life becomes real once they get married, when for the rest of us, it is just a continuation of the life we were already living. Or, I could just be overthinking it as always.

Re: the bolded, I agree. I don't think you are overthinking it.

These young women are not considered adults in their world until marriage and until then are sheltered like children. They are led to believe all sorts of wonderful things about marriage, their future husbands and how life is going to like but never are given the chance to learn what they really want in life, in marriage, in a husband. Many still have little girl type fantasies, stuff that many of us got over (or in the process) by the time we become adults.

I suspect that there are a lot of fundie wives are really disappointed but mask it all in "happy, happy, joy, joy" Biblespeak.

I hope Jill doesn't become one of those, though Derick does look to be a good guy. Hope there is some real chemistry there and not just "he's so godly" blah blah stuff.

ETA: I mean, Mr. No was and still is a good guy but there was chemistry there. I dated other good guys where there just wasn't.

[lascuba]

All this talk about periods and wedding nights reminds me of an old book--Victorian era--that had sex advice for married men. IIRC, it was even written by a clergyman (I'm kicking myself for not bookmarking it). One piece of advice was to have sex during her period, because that meant more lubrication and more enjoyment for her. Fundies have really mastered the art of devolution, haven't they?

It's funnny, my friend was married a few weeks ago and her period came the morning of the wedding, which was out of the ordinary but she thinks stress was a factor. She didn't even think it was a big deal but maybe since she had already had sex with the husband-to-be it didn't matter if they didn't have it that night.

I hope Jill enjoyed her big day. The hard work begins now because she and Derrick will finally get know each other, and I am not talking sexually, in ways that people who date learn about each other. It will be interesting because Derrick seems to have lived a pretty normal life in the world that Jill was sheltered from. I hope she gets to finally see the world on her own terms.

My only worry is the same worry I have for all of these young fundy women who go through courtship. Realistically, you court with the expectation that this is the one, perfect for you and the one you are supposed to be in love with. I worry that when these couples are finally married that they learn that the husband is not as perfect as they think, and I dont mean that they are dangerous or mean but maybe just what we would find normal, and they end up being disappointed. I think life becomes real once they get married, when for the rest of us, it is just a continuation of the life we were already living. Or, I could just be overthinking it as always.

I think major disappointment is inevitable in fundie marriages unless the couple is blessed with sheer dumb luck.

[Laser Lotus]

It's funnny, my friend was married a few weeks ago and her period came the morning of the wedding, which was out of the ordinary but she thinks stress was a factor. She didn't even think it was a big deal but maybe since she had already had sex with the husband-to-be it didn't matter if they didn't have it that night.

I hope Jill enjoyed her big day. The hard work begins now because she and Derrick will finally get know each other, and I am not talking sexually, in ways that people who date learn about each other. It will be interesting because Derrick seems to have lived a pretty normal life in the world that Jill was sheltered from. I hope she gets to finally see the world on her own terms.

My only worry is the same worry I have for all of these young fundy women who go through courtship. Realistically, you court with the expectation that this is the one, perfect for you and the one you are supposed to be in love with. I worry that when these couples are finally married that they learn that the husband is not as perfect as they think, and I dont mean that they are dangerous or mean but maybe just what we would find normal, and they end up being disappointed. I think life becomes real once they get married, when for the rest of us, it is just a continuation of the life we were already living. Or, I could just be overthinking it as always.

That's a good point. Also, since the time from courtship to marriage is often just a few months, many of them are probably still in the infatuation stage of the relationship. I think infatuation is quite natural, but if you marry while you're still in that "omg I want to spend every waking moment with this person" mindset, you may not be able to take a step back and consider things, like if any of their faults are deal breakers, or how compatible you are as a long-term couple. That being said, getting married quickly does seem to work out fine for some people.

[Lissa08]

I do worry for her, they hardly know each other! My husband and I married to soon and too young I know first hand how hard it is the really get to know someone after the wedding. Things have turned out great for us and I don't regret getting married I just think it would have been easier if we would have slowed down and really dated.

[stardust]

I've read that many Hasidic women go on birth control in the months leading up to the wedding to ensures they can predict their cycles to the day, since they have to wait several days after they stop bleeding to have sex.

I'm unmarried (still a teenager and don't really ever want to be) but it was always my perception that women planned their weddings around their periods. I figured it was one of the factors that comes into play when choosing "the perfect wedding date."

[stardust]

That's a good point. Also, since the time from courtship to marriage is often just a few months, many of them are probably still in the infatuation stage of the relationship. I think infatuation is quite natural, but if you marry while you're still in that "omg I want to spend every waking moment with this person" mindset, you may not be able to take a step back and consider things, like if any of their faults are deal breakers, or how compatible you are as a long-term couple. That being said, getting married quickly does seem to work out fine for some people.

I expect that happens a lot with fundie couples, but nothing ever comes from it because they don't believe in divorce or separation. I'm sure any doubt would be branded as 'evil thoughts' and they would punish themselves or feel heavy guilt for even thinking that they may not want to spend the rest of their life with that person. You'd never know, though, through the creepy quaker smiles and spewing bible verses to cover up real issues...

[HereticHick]

I also assumed that most women plan their wedding dates around their periods. Not just for reasons of sex or fertility, but because maybe you don't feel your best then! I know I did. I don't feel my best when "Aunt Flo" is visiting, plus I was perhaps a bit paranoid about possibly spotting my white dress. Plus it was a long international flight to our honeymoon, and its a drag to fly when you are on the rag. (two points for rhyming!) :)

[church_of_dog]

I also assumed that most women plan their wedding dates around their periods. Not just for reasons of sex or fertility, but because maybe you don't feel your best then! I know I did. I don't feel my best when "Aunt Flo" is visiting, plus I was perhaps a bit paranoid about possibly spotting my white dress. Plus it was a long international flight to our honeymoon, and its a drag to fly when you are on the rag. (two points for rhyming!) :)

I remember my Mom telling me she planned her wedding date so as to not be on her period during her honeymoon (including the wedding day, I presume). I believe she said she used birth control pills in order to know precisely when her period would be. This would be in the mid-50s -- I suppose BC might have been a bigger deal to get at that time? Or maybe it was common/accepted to get a prescription a few months before getting married, because I remember you had to be on it for a while before it was considered "in effect".

I have never been married, but I certainly would have factored that in to any wedding/honeymoon plans.

[IReallyAmHopewell]

"My only worry is the same worry I have for all of these young fundy women who go through courtship. Realistically, you court with the expectation that this is the one, perfect for you and the one you are supposed to be in love with. I worry that when these couples are finally married that they learn that the husband is not as perfect as they think, and I dont mean that they are dangerous or mean but maybe just what we would find normal, and they end up being disappointed. I think life becomes real once they get married, when for the rest of us, it is just a continuation of the life we were already living. Or, I could just be overthinking it as always."

This is just part of marriage. Even if you live together this can happen. It depends on how romantically-emotional a person is. I lived with my ex and still ending up with WTF? and a divorce. My Mom's generation (born late 30s) EXPECTED this. Everyone has a "honeymoon" period with their spouse. Today we simply have a very, very unrealistic expectation of finding a "soulmate" or a "bestest bestest, bestest friend" to marry. You are marrying a man or a woman. Not a perfect anything. Same for Jill, same for Jane Joe, same for single sex couples. It's just part of life. It doesn't have to be fatal though!

[church_of_dog]

"My only worry is the same worry I have for all of these young fundy women who go through courtship. Realistically, you court with the expectation that this is the one, perfect for you and the one you are supposed to be in love with. I worry that when these couples are finally married that they learn that the husband is not as perfect as they think, and I dont mean that they are dangerous or mean but maybe just what we would find normal, and they end up being disappointed. I think life becomes real once they get married, when for the rest of us, it is just a continuation of the life we were already living. Or, I could just be overthinking it as always."

This is just part of marriage. Even if you live together this can happen. It depends on how romantically-emotional a person is. I lived with my ex and still ending up with WTF? and a divorce. My Mom's generation (born late 30s) EXPECTED this. Everyone has a "honeymoon" period with their spouse. Today we simply have a very, very unrealistic expectation of finding a "soulmate" or a "bestest bestest, bestest friend" to marry. You are marrying a man or a woman. Not a perfect anything. Same for Jill, same for Jane Joe, same for single sex couples. It's just part of life. It doesn't have to be fatal though!

I found it to be fatal for me, because even though I get what you've said, my ex hasn't seemed to get it. So he hasn't been open to talking about problems -- "if we don't see eye to eye then I guess we aren't compatible", is his perspective. I have been unable to impress upon him that he's got an unrealistic expectation and that nearly everyone has issues that need to be worked out. So unfortunately, although what you say is true, if one person still has that expectation of perfect match, they can be the wrench in the works!

[Cheetah]

I also assumed that most women plan their wedding dates around their periods. Not just for reasons of sex or fertility, but because maybe you don't feel your best then! I know I did. I don't feel my best when "Aunt Flo" is visiting, plus I was perhaps a bit paranoid about possibly spotting my white dress. Plus it was a long international flight to our honeymoon, and its a drag to fly when you are on the rag. (two points for rhyming!) :)

Easy to do if you have a Duggar-length engagement and a regular cycle. Not so easy when you set a date over a year in advance and your cycles vary by even a few days.

[Cheetah]

Easy to do if you have a Duggar-length engagement and a regular cycle. Not so easy when you set a date over a year in advance and your cycles vary by even a few days.

(and now reading another post about going on the pill).. oh, yeah, duh, I forgot about the pill making it totally do-able. Since I haven't been on the pill in ... um... 18 years? ... that slipped my mind :-). But not everyone can do hormonal bc, and couple that with a longer engagement and you might not be able to calculate a good date that precisely.

[mair73]

Did anyone else read the article ( I think it was a post from the Today show) that shared how they hung his father's police uniform shirt and michelle's wedding dress. Ok I get his father's shirt, in memory etc. Actually think that was a beautiful thing to do, but michelle's dress?? WTF for? That irritated me beyond words. Just seems to me another way to somehow make the day about her.

[nokidsmom]

I found it to be fatal for me, because even though I get what you've said, my ex hasn't seemed to get it. So he hasn't been open to talking about problems -- "if we don't see eye to eye then I guess we aren't compatible", is his perspective. I have been unable to impress upon him that he's got an unrealistic expectation and that nearly everyone has issues that need to be worked out. So unfortunately, although what you say is true, if one person still has that expectation of perfect match, they can be the wrench in the works!

Agree that all it takes is one. Now, perfect expectations shouldn't have to be fatal but unfortunately it does. While I don't think it's unusual for couples to go in with unrealistic expectations and many learn to adapt to the reality, I have personally seen couples split up over this issue.

Another stumbling block IMHO is the idea of that "one and only" person in the whole wide world out there for you. The truth is that there are probably a number of people out there you would be compatible with. This is what gets me when fundie courtships break up; it's such a horrible thing because this was the one person that was meant for you (never mind that you don't get to know them that well anyway) and there's no realization that there might be other people.

[Cheetah]

Another stumbling block IMHO is the idea of that "one and only" person in the whole wide world out there for you. The truth is that there are probably a number of people out there you would be compatible with. This is what gets me when fundie courtships break up; it's such a horrible thing because this was the one person that was meant for you (never mind that you don't get to know them that well anyway) and there's no realization that there might be other people.

I love Dan Savage, the sex-and-relationships advice columnist/ podcast -host. He's got a saying that there is no '1' out there, but there are a lot of '0.8's that you can round up to a 1 with some tolerance on both sides.

He's also quite vocal on the idea that a single incident of adultery shouldn't ruin a relationship, that 'monogram-ish' relationships can be a great solution to a long-term marriage where there is some boredom in the bedroom but still a lot of love, and that true love doesn't mean you are never going to notice another attractive person every again. I think some of these 'black-and-white' thinkers (fundies, but not just) get really confused when they first feel an attraction to someone else (after they are married) and think that 'wow, I must have chosen wrong the first time and this other person B is actually my soulmate...'

[Rachel333]

I also assumed that most women plan their wedding dates around their periods. Not just for reasons of sex or fertility, but because maybe you don't feel your best then! I know I did. I don't feel my best when "Aunt Flo" is visiting, plus I was perhaps a bit paranoid about possibly spotting my white dress. Plus it was a long international flight to our honeymoon, and its a drag to fly when you are on the rag. (two points for rhyming!) :)

You'd have to be extremely regular to be able to do that without birth control though, wouldn't you? I can't even plan a month ahead. And I doubt the fundies would be okay with using birth control even before the wedding. (Actually, would they find it acceptable for women not having sex to use it for period difficulties? I imagine no but I can't think what it would hurt even from their theology except I guess that they're supporting the evil birth control industry.)

[Mama Mia]

I remember my Mom telling me she planned her wedding date so as to not be on her period during her honeymoon (including the wedding day, I presume). I believe she said she used birth control pills in order to know precisely when her period would be. This would be in the mid-50s -- I suppose BC might have been a bigger deal to get at that time? Or maybe it was common/accepted to get a prescription a few months before getting married, because I remember you had to be on it for a while before it was considered "in effect".

I have never been married, but I certainly would have factored that in to any wedding/honeymoon plans.

The pill wasn't approved for contraceptive use until 1960, and it only became available at all in very limited circumstances for severe menstrual problems in 1957, so probably your mom had to just guess as best she could when her period would be. It's pretty crazy to think how relatively recent the pills existence is.

[nokidsmom]

I love Dan Savage, the sex-and-relationships advice columnist/ podcast -host. He's got a saying that there is no '1' out there, but there are a lot of '0.8's that you can round up to a 1 with some tolerance on both sides.

He's also quite vocal on the idea that a single incident of adultery shouldn't ruin a relationship, that 'monogram-ish' relationships can be a great solution to a long-term marriage where there is some boredom in the bedroom but still a lot of love, and that true love doesn't mean you are never going to notice another attractive person every again. I think some of these 'black-and-white' thinkers (fundies, but not just) get really confused when they first feel an attraction to someone else (after they are married) and think that 'wow, I must have chosen wrong the first time and this other person B is actually my soulmate...'

I like Dan Savage too! The advice on there being no "1" out there is spot on.

I think a lot of folks get tripped up by the idea that marriage means you won't notice another attractive person, nor will another person be attracted to you. It happens but for some people it does really throw them, whether they are feeling the attraction or on the receiving end. A few years after I was married, a guy at work took a very obvious fancy to me. He never did anything improper other than share this fact with coworkers and they were just shocked, shocked because you know, I was married. I was off limits. I was like hey it happens, nothing's going to come of it, but these folks were just outraged because that wasn't supposed to happen. Like being married was some magic talisman that kept away this sort of thing. It doesn't and I wondered about how these shocked (and married) coworkers dealt with being attracted to someone or having someone attracted to them. Because it happens.

And the other shocking thing to these coworkers was the fact that I was not shocked.

My grandma was one of these believers in soulmates. She was very, very worried when I broke up with the fiance that I was making the mistake of my life and I was forever doomed to spinsterhood.

Oh well, just some random thoughts on this whole "only one for me" and "soul mate" thing. Back to regularly scheduled programming.

[church_of_dog]

The pill wasn't approved for contraceptive use until 1960, and it only became available at all in very limited circumstances for severe menstrual problems in 1957, so probably your mom had to just guess as best she could when her period would be. It's pretty crazy to think how relatively recent the pills existence is.

Hmm, I will have to ask her. Maybe she just said she planned around it and I made the association with the pill on my own. As I was typing the above I had the realization that the pill wasn't available yet at the time of her marriage in 1955 -- and the reason I had that realization was because for a week now I've had this unshakeable earworm -- random bits of "We Didn't Start The Fire" keep popping into my head for no reason I'm aware of. So finally a few days ago I googled the lyrics and found a site that actually explains each reference. And of course "birth control" is one of the lines, referring to 1960 I believe, as you just indicated.

And now I've inflicted my earworm on you all, mwahahahah…. (er, I mean, I'm so sorry about that!)

[Mama Mia]

Arrggghhh yes you did, now I'm going to have to hope its on YouTube so I can obsessively listen to it over and over and over :lol:

[church_of_dog]

Arrggghhh yes you did, now I'm going to have to hope its on YouTube so I can obsessively listen to it over and over and over :lol:

Oh man, I am sorry, MM!

But while you're down for the count anyway, here's that site that explains each lyric: http://rock.rapgenius.com/Billy-joel-we ... ire-lyrics

Here's to hoping you have a milder version of it than I have… If not, let me know and I'll post the lyrics to Gilligan's Island as a distraction :lol:

[Becket70]

Sometimes life gives you more than one soul mate. My mom and dad had been married fifty years when my dad died. A chance meeting allowed my mom to meet Joseph, a wonderful man who had lost his wife the year before. Mom and Joseph lived in Florida but coincidences abounded...his son and my brother lived in the same Illinois town and their kids were in the same Little League team. My mother had actually met Joseph's wife as they both did charity work for the same organization. Mom and Joseph adored each other and were together eleven years before he passed away. I don't know if my mother loved him the same way she loved my dad and I don't really care. They had a wonderful life together and I do feel they were soul mates. This begs the question....do fundie's remarry if they lose their spouse? Would Jim Bob remarry if, God forbid, something happened to Michelle? Would he marry a younger woman so he could make more babies? Is it okay for a fundy widow to remarry if she is beyond child-bearing years? So many rules in fundyland.....